CML + ?

[Long Fang]

So there is currently a discussion goin on in my 1750 pt list thread but i thought best to open it up to everyone sooooo.

 

Q. Can Wolf Guard Terminators have a singlehanded

weapon in addition to a heavy weapon?

 

A. Yes – this rule supercedes the note in the Wolf

Guard list entry. If they have a cyclone missile

launcher they may have a storm bolter instead of

a single-handed weapon. In addition, they may

select Runic Charms, Wolf Pelts and Wolf Tooth

Necklaces as if they had a ‘T’ next to their cost in

the Space Wolf Armoury.

(Current SW FAQ)

 

 

Right so. What can a WG take with a CML....

 

1) CML, Storm bolter or single handed weapon + empty/missing arm (ala targetor arm)

2) CML, storm bolter + single handed weapon (ala SM)

3) CML + Whatever you like (In my case twin lightening claws)

 

My club plays with option 3 but all can be argued.

 

Thoughts??

 

Thanx

 

Long Fang

[hendrik]

option 3 i figure

[Vash113]

I always play it with a Storm Bolter and Power Fist even with the FAQ being poorly written I've yet to have someone complain as after all our Terminators are more expensive anyway.

[Long Fang]

@Vash

I would think that that is the most likely argument to win everyone over as nilla marines have that setup.

 

But then that setup is CML + 2 single handed weapons nilla marines don't get other options we do...

 

Long Fang

[Grey Mage]

RAW- Heavy weapon, CML or otherwise makes no difference, and one other one handed weapon. The CML also allows you to instead take a stormbolter if you so choose. There is nothing in the codex or FAQ to show they are allowed more than one single handed weapon, there isnt even a plural in the sentences anywhere that might provide confusion.

 

That being said I dont think its at all cheesy, overpowered etc... merely against the rules. If your mates are willing to houserule it then enjoy.

[Ullr Direfang]

RAW- Heavy weapon, CML or otherwise makes no difference, and one other one handed weapon. The CML also allows you to instead take a stormbolter if you so choose. There is nothing in the codex or FAQ to show they are allowed more than one single handed weapon, there isnt even a plural in the sentences anywhere that might provide confusion.

 

sadly this is how i know it as well. i would love to run the twin lightning claws but i can't bend the way i read the book.

[TAVAAR]

I've talked to many "higher ups" and rules "experts" on this (and many other issues with old Dex wording and poor FAQ's) and the unanimous answer has always been CML and ONE, one-handed weapon. Personally I don't care either way as they cost out the ears for much more than that, but the SS/PF or SS/PW on a CML would be nice...

 

In the meantime, I'll play by CML and ONE other, too many people already call us broken, at which case I feel bad when I (not intending to) make them more convinced of that by bringing the teeth of the wolves to bear on their poor army.

[Vash113]

Well the problem is the Cyclone Launcher used to include a mandatory targeter, that no longer exists so the rule is broken to begin with RAW or no RAW.

 

Then again we can get 4 Assault Cannons in a single Bodyguard unit and after all it's actually cheaper not to take a second weapon on a Termie with a Cyclone Launcher and since you'll likely never use it there's really no need too so for the sake of proper balanced armament the SW player is in essence wasting points.

 

I only do it because I don't want to have to change a finished model later when the Codex finally gets an update but if an opponent complains I'll be more than happy to save the points or better yet switch to an Assault Cannon which is generally more effective and 10 points cheaper to boot, the Cyclone combined with Storm Bolter and CC Weapon is a full 13 points more expensive than just taking a single Assault Cannon.

 

EDIT:

 

Actually by RAW the FAQ is useless as it's no longer official. Also according to RAW we have no stats for Assault Cannons or Cyclone Launchers and we cannot refere to C:SM for their stats as the only items we can technically do that for are those items listed in italics in the Armoury according to our Armoury rules:

 

A number of entries are basically the same as their counterpart in the standard Space Marines Armoury and, in this case, we've noted this by writing the entry in italics below. There is a brief description of how these items work on the summary page later in this Codex but you should refer to the Wargear section in Codex: Space Marines for a full description.

 

Note it does not say "for a full description of the rules for all shared items" or some such, the way it's worded implies only those items in italics may have their rules drawn from C:SM and not only are the Cyclone Launcher and Assault Cannon not in italics they aren't in the Armoury at all.

 

On the other hand by RAW we can still use True Grit to get +1 attack for having 2 CC Weapons with Power Fists and Thunder Hammers and you could even argue that for Lightning Claws. Though these items are all listed as italics and thus pull their full description from C:SM it's not made clear which description outweighs the other, their summary in C:SW or the full description in C:SM, the way the rules are worded implies only that if the summary isn't enough information the full description is in C:SM but not that one set of rules supercedes the other if there's a disagreement.

 

The Wolves Codex can be as balanced or broken as it's made to be, there are a lot of little quirks and problems here and there due to the Codexies age and the fact that it's fully two editions behind, a little common sense and compromise are a must to use it practically or fairly.

[Long Fang]

Because i Deploy my TDA WG in a drop pod the CCW's almost always get used. I was using 4 Assault cannons but ran a test game with 4 cyclones and they tore the place up, but they are expensive..

 

I've got my WG magnetized specfically because I'm worried about weapon options in new dex. Its fairly easy to do and I'd recommend it to anyone confident with a pin vice drill.

 

Long Fang

[G. A. K.]

A number of entries are basically the same as their counterpart in the standard Space Marines Armoury and, in this case, we've noted this by writing the entry in italics below. There is a brief description of how these items work on the summary page later in this Codex but you should refer to the Wargear section in Codex: Space Marines for a full description.

 

Note it does not say "for a full description of the rules for all shared items" or some such, the way it's worded implies only those items in italics may have their rules drawn from C:SM and not only are the Cyclone Launcher and Assault Cannon not in italics they aren't in the Armoury at all.

 

Actually it does. By your logic since the word 'terminator armor' isn't in italics, we don't get an inv. save either; just the 2+ listed on the summary page. However, on the following page (15) under the heading "Space Wolves Wargear" it claerly states that:

Any items not listed here function exactly as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook or Codex Space Marines.

 

That being said I would say that nowhere does it say that the CML isn't your two handed weapon and therefore by the stated rules of choosing wargear (ie: one two-handed, one one-handed; or two one-handed weapons) it only seems fair to limit your selections accordingly.

 

I'm sorry to say but I think this is the only area in which we don't get the best of both dexes. If this is the worst it gets, I can live with that. For those who can't, ask any DA, BT or BA player if they'd like to get: Droppod assaulting termies, heavy 2 CML, or 3+ storm shields. Then truely ask yourself if we didn't make out like bandits on this whole deal. Because I think we did <_<

 

G

[Grey Mage]

EDIT:

 

Actually by RAW the FAQ is useless as it's no longer official. Also according to RAW we have no stats for Assault Cannons or Cyclone Launchers and we cannot refere to C:SM for their stats as the only items we can technically do that for are those items listed in italics in the Armoury according to our Armoury rules:

 

A number of entries are basically the same as their counterpart in the standard Space Marines Armoury and, in this case, we've noted this by writing the entry in italics below. There is a brief description of how these items work on the summary page later in this Codex but you should refer to the Wargear section in Codex: Space Marines for a full description.

 

Note it does not say "for a full description of the rules for all shared items" or some such, the way it's worded implies only those items in italics may have their rules drawn from C:SM and not only are the Cyclone Launcher and Assault Cannon not in italics they aren't in the Armoury at all.

 

On the other hand by RAW we can still use True Grit to get +1 attack for having 2 CC Weapons with Power Fists and Thunder Hammers and you could even argue that for Lightning Claws. Though these items are all listed as italics and thus pull their full description from C:SM it's not made clear which description outweighs the other, their summary in C:SW or the full description in C:SM, the way the rules are worded implies only that if the summary isn't enough information the full description is in C:SM but not that one set of rules supercedes the other if there's a disagreement.

 

The Wolves Codex can be as balanced or broken as it's made to be, there are a lot of little quirks and problems here and there due to the Codexies age and the fact that it's fully two editions behind, a little common sense and compromise are a must to use it practically or fairly.

Um vash... your daft you know that right? Its got nothing to do with the armor page for our WG heavy weapons you know that right? Its the top of the Wargear page that tells us to refer to C:SM. And before you get up in a bunch because C:SM has seperate weapons and wargear note that we have weapons in our "wargear" page and it doesnt say look for wargear not listed here, it says "Items". That bit on the armor page is just a handy reference for things that are to be looked up in C:SM, but its not the primary basis for the rule.

 

EDIT: GAK beat me to it.

[Vash113]

Um vash... your daft you know that right? Its got nothing to do with the armor page for our WG heavy weapons you know that right? Its the top of the Wargear page that tells us to refer to C:SM. And before you get up in a bunch because C:SM has seperate weapons and wargear note that we have weapons in our "wargear" page and it doesnt say look for wargear not listed here, it says "Items". That bit on the armor page is just a handy reference for things that are to be looked up in C:SM, but its not the primary basis for the rule.

 

EDIT: GAK beat me to it.

 

Ok I made a mistake, that happens, thanks for insulting me though Grey Mage, really makes my day. <_<

 

Regardless the point I was trying to make still stands, there are a lot of things that do not function properly in the SW Dex, for instance technically with SW True Grit by RAW we can get +1 attack for 2 CC weapons while using a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer. Broken, yes and I don't advocate doing it. However Cyclone Launchers are in the same boat, just because you don't use a broken rule to your advantage like with True Grit it's also not necessary to limit oneself with a broken rule to your disadvantage if it is one at all.

 

That being said I would say that nowhere does it say that the CML isn't your two handed weapon and therefore by the stated rules of choosing wargear (ie: one two-handed, one one-handed; or two one-handed weapons) it only seems fair to limit your selections accordingly.

 

I don't see how that's fair, likewise I don't see how mixing PA and Termie models with 4 Assault Cannons in a Drop Pod is exactly fair, but I do neither. IMO it works both ways, broken rules to your advantage shouldn't be used, likewise the same goes for broken rules to your disadvantage. If an opponent is rules lawyer enough to complain, whip out the True Grit Power Fists or the 4 Assault Cannon Drop Pods.

[Grey Mage]

Ok I made a mistake, that happens, thanks for insulting me though Grey Mage, really makes my day. ;)

 

*spreads hands* hey, sorry man it was just teasing. I didnt mean anything by it.

[Vash113]

Eh no worries I'm just touchy today, chipped a canine last week, had it filled only to have the fix break off as well... I'm not a happy Wolf today.

[Ryzouken]

I should imagine not! How can we expect you to bite someone if one of your two principal biting teeth are damaged!

 

Get that thing capped in steel! (or something non conductive so your nerve doesn't provide bioelectrical feedback (DEAR GOD THAT HURTS! Stupid tin foil...))

[Grey Mage]

Ah... yeah I understand, about a year back I chomped down to hard aparently... broke my upper left cannine in half.

[WG Vrox]

I just bought 2 CML modes looking for some paint ideas. Anyone willing to post some pics of your setup?

 

WG Vrox

[Vash113]

I should imagine not! How can we expect you to bite someone if one of your two principal biting teeth are damaged!

 

I know right, it's really embarassing to have a damaged fang... :blink:

 

I just bought 2 CML modes looking for some paint ideas. Anyone willing to post some pics of your setup?

 

WG Vrox

 

Here ya go:

 

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m307/Vash113/Space%20Wolves/IMG_0225.jpg

 

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m307/Vash113/Space%20Wolves/IMG_0230.jpg

 

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m307/Vash113/Space%20Wolves/IMG_0229.jpg

[WG Vrox]

lol, I like the knives, can I borrow that? maybe a wolf pelt over them with just the handles sticking out.

 

WG Vrox.

[Vash113]

Haha borrow away. More pics can be found here if your interrested.