Ominous Anonymous Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 So I'm putting together my first Space Wolves list, thinking of starting with a Ven. Dread for HQ, a squad of Blood Claws and Grey Hunters, etc. etc. etc., but going over costs a friend mentioned that Space Wolves get Rhinos as transports for 35pts, but looking over the Blood Claw entry it says they can only take one as a transport for 50pts, while the Transport Vehicles special rule they have says that the details for these vehicles should be used from the SM codex. Does this mean dedicated transports will cost me 50pts but non-dedicated transports will only cost me 35pts? Confused. :blink: Thanks in advance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 You cant get a non-dedicated rhino. The confusion comes from the fact that FAQs from different countries say different things. Most people agree that space marines get 35pt rhinos, and most tournament FAQs back it up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1923888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ominous Anonymous Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 Alright, I just don't want to go to a FLGS tournament and have someone get me disqualified because I wasn't being exact about points costs and now I've gone over the limit and oh no... :blink: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1923903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanaellars Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 If you are going to a tournament with it, price it at 50. better safe than sorry. Myself for local and friendly games, we use 35 points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 If the tournament hasn't FAQed it, take it for 35 points. It's what I would do FWIW... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Well also ask the person in charge as well. If they make you take the 50pt one then grab EA as well so that you are about even with SM Rhinos with EA as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeti Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I also run 35pt rhinos and I'm doing it in the local HoH this weekend. Of course, we speak french in this neck of the woods, so I'm brining along the french FAQ which clearly states that I pay C:SM points for rhinos. Before this, I was taking a "middle of the road approach". I used the points from the SW 'dex, but the entry from SM. In the strictest sense, and without a clear statement otherwise in the english FAQ, this is the way to go. The SW dex says they cost 50pts and you use the upgrade costs from the SW codex. But the SW codex also refers for the SM codex for the rhino's "details". Which means that they come standard with smoke and a searchlight. Equipped with extra armor, it's a 5pt difference ... nothing huge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Brothers, this came up in another thread. Bottom Line: C:SM FAQ: Use the point costs ad rules from Codex: Space Marines for Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Whilrwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and Vindicators. All of the different variants and options avaliable in the Space Marine army are also available to the Space Wolves. The exception to this is the Venerable Dread.... Does not mention Rhino or Razorback. C:SW has Razorback at 70pts and Rhino at 50pts. I can't find anything anywhere else that says we get the Razorback at 50 and the Rhino at 35. If I'm wrong, please help me out and show me where to look. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Brothers, this came up in another thread. Bottom Line: C:SM FAQ: Use the point costs ad rules from Codex: Space Marines for Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Whilrwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and Vindicators. All of the different variants and options avaliable in the Space Marine army are also available to the Space Wolves. The exception to this is the Venerable Dread.... Does not mention Rhino or Razorback. C:SW has Razorback at 70pts and Rhino at 50pts. I can't find anything anywhere else that says we get the Razorback at 50 and the Rhino at 35. If I'm wrong, please help me out and show me where to look. the German FAQ mentions Razorbacks and Rhinos... so I print that one out and bring it with me :-D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I use army builder to make my lists for tournies, and that program gives us the rhinos and razorbacks at the reduced cost. I don't see why we should pay more and have never had any problems. That guy that disqualified you must have been really scared of your list and freaked out. The judge should have atleast let you drop the rhino and play 35 pts under IMO. I only see a problem if you pay 35 for the rhino but only 5 for EA, thats too far. I usually just do what army builder lets me do, its a fairly trusted resource on what is and what isn't allowed. They get to hammer out what is going on in GW's head(s) and I think they have finally gotten out all the bugs in the 5th ed update. I also think that it should be used by anyone who is going to a tournament as it details what gear each squad has and also explains what the gear does. Its just easier IMO to have on hand for your opponents to look at while you are deploying. I hate having to make sense of a hand written list in the heat of battle, then ask what everything does. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunchb0x Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Heres an idea....if its a big issue... Bring 2 lists...one for 35pnt rhinos and one for 50pnt rhinos...and show both to the guys running the event as well as the faq in whatever Language you speak. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Bjoern Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 What does our codex say? And i don´t mean the entry for BC or GH, i mean the entry for rhino/razorback. It says see C:SM. Our dex don´t include the rules, options and the profile for rhinos and razorbacks and so we use the entries for those vehicles from C:SM. It´s a question of common sense, GW had forgotten them in the english FAQ simple and plain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeti Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Brothers, this came up in another thread. Bottom Line: C:SM FAQ: Use the point costs ad rules from Codex: Space Marines for Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Whilrwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and Vindicators. All of the different variants and options avaliable in the Space Marine army are also available to the Space Wolves. The exception to this is the Venerable Dread.... Does not mention Rhino or Razorback. C:SW has Razorback at 70pts and Rhino at 50pts. I can't find anything anywhere else that says we get the Razorback at 50 and the Rhino at 35. If I'm wrong, please help me out and show me where to look. the German FAQ mentions Razorbacks and Rhinos... so I print that one out and bring it with me :-D Same with the french FAQ. Rhinos and Razorbacks are specifically mentionned and you use the cost & options listed at C:SM prices. The real question is why they got left out of the English FAQ. The Emperor works in mysterious ways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 What does our codex say? And i don´t mean the entry for BC or GH, i mean the entry for rhino/razorback. It says see C:SM. Our dex don´t include the rules, options and the profile for rhinos and razorbacks and so we use the entries for those vehicles from C:SM. It´s a question of common sense, GW had forgotten them in the english FAQ simple and plain. DB, it actually says in our codex under Blood Claws and under Grey Hunter the point cost for the Rhino and RB. Am I missing somewhere else? But the fact that it's in the German and French FAQ could mean an oversight in the English...excellent point there. Where can I get a copy of the German FAQ? Disregard, found it. Thanks! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Take the German faq its on that one, or so i been told. Last time i checked on tourney rules it didn't tell you in which language the Errata should be, and its still official. (German isn't that difficult to read, and no i'am not German) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Ha! Especially how it says Rhino and Razorback in plain english in the paragraph! lol :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 By that token you could just pull the German version through a Translator and you have youre plain English version. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ominous Anonymous Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 Here's the problem as I understand it so far: -The units that can use the Rhino in our codex are given a clear amount of points, 50, to pay to purchase a rhino for said squads -However, there is no page giving a description of our vehicles like the Wargear section (even though that page contains the critical message of telling us to use rules from the Space Marine codex except for Space Wolf-only items such as Frost Blades and the various charms) and the SW codex by itself only tells us to use the rules from the SM codex for things like Dreadnoughts and Land Speeders and not Rhinos and Razorbacks. -The Space Marine codex has the two transports for both a cheaper cost and with extra stuff for free but things like Extra Armor cost more while the Space Wolf codex gets that stuff for cheap -Lastly, and this is perhaps the most confusing part, is that depending on the country that produced a Space Wolf FAQ will have different rules on the subject, with the English FAQ being the worst offender because it doesn't mention this at all, but does say that Long Fangs can buy a Razorback for the same points costs as the Grey Hunters, 70pts -In a tournament setting, this leaves us at the mercy of the people in charge because we're not really sure what rulings to use for which and which FAQs are allowed because they come from GW or not allowed because it's in a different language or for any plethora of reasons ranging from playing it safe with a codex that everyone can read to a xenophobia that extends beyond a hatred of Eldar armies if you're following me. Did that cover everything? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeti Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Here's the problem as I understand it so far: -The units that can use the Rhino in our codex are given a clear amount of points, 50, to pay to purchase a rhino for said squads -However, there is no page giving a description of our vehicles like the Wargear section (even though that page contains the critical message of telling us to use rules from the Space Marine codex except for Space Wolf-only items such as Frost Blades and the various charms) and the SW codex by itself only tells us to use the rules from the SM codex for things like Dreadnoughts and Land Speeders and not Rhinos and Razorbacks. -The Space Marine codex has the two transports for both a cheaper cost and with extra stuff for free but things like Extra Armor cost more while the Space Wolf codex gets that stuff for cheap -Lastly, and this is perhaps the most confusing part, is that depending on the country that produced a Space Wolf FAQ will have different rules on the subject, with the English FAQ being the worst offender because it doesn't mention this at all, but does say that Long Fangs can buy a Razorback for the same points costs as the Grey Hunters, 70pts -In a tournament setting, this leaves us at the mercy of the people in charge because we're not really sure what rulings to use for which and which FAQs are allowed because they come from GW or not allowed because it's in a different language or for any plethora of reasons ranging from playing it safe with a codex that everyone can read to a xenophobia that extends beyond a hatred of Eldar armies if you're following me. Did that cover everything? :D Ever wonder why SW players are such good tactician ... because we can navigate having a 3rd ed codex in a 5th ed setting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Yeah... the worst part is if they go only by the english faq its actually 65pts for a rhino with extra armor... as it says we take all upgrades and options from C:SM except for the Vendread and LRE. This is my primary argument that its an oversight in the english faq- they never adressed the armory for rhinos or ravorbacks, in any context. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 You know why it isn't in the English FAQ? GW just likes :lol::in with us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1924875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeti Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Yeah... the worst part is if they go only by the english faq its actually 65pts for a rhino with extra armor... as it says we take all upgrades and options from C:SM except for the Vendread and LRE. I'd contest this ... a lot. We come standard with the same equipment as SM rhinos and have access to the same options ... but if we pay SW price for the rhino, we pay SW price for the upgrades too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1925476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Id contest it too, and the people in my area cringed when they heard that one... and so allowed me to use the other language faqs as evidence of intent... so now I have 35pt rhinos just like it should be. But you can see that while its rather unpleasant its certainly a viable argument. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163650-question-about-rhinos/#findComment-1925728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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