Bad tactics or dice?

[TAVAAR]

So I started using my SW dice for my High Elves and am on a Massacre streak but now I can't seem to win (barely tying in some cases) with my Wolves... and most of these ARE AGAINST 'NILLA MARINES! I'm not sure whether to get new dice or switch tactics completely.

 

If I did I would want to know what my brothers think of these:

 

1 - I ussually run 1 or 2 GH squads with MG in a Razorback w/ LC and TLPG's

-these have died real quick an in Annihalate this has hurt more than helped

 

2 - Uber WGBL sqaud of 3 AC Drop Podded (the 380ish pts one)

-these don't kill enough in one turn, never get assaulted and get shot up with PG, MG, or LC before my next turn

 

3 - LRC with Ragnar, GK GM with GK termi retinue x6

-this works wonders and kills anything it hits, even 10 man termi squads with force commanders, in one turn. Then I find out that I cant make 2+ for my life and cover is never close enough to help my Inv saves.

 

4 - Predator w/AC and Sponsoon LC's

-never makes its points and rarely gives me any tactical advantage after one turn of shooting except as a bullet magnet (just enough so it cant shoot then they focus on the other stuff)

 

 

Drop Podding has yet to worked for me and the mech lists get blown to pieces too quick, I'm thinking of foot slogging. I'd love to run some bikes but BC bike's are pretty much useless for their points.

 

Have any of my brothers found 'Nilla marines to be such a thorn in the side? Is this a downturn or slump? Or do I need new dice?

 

What has worked well for my brothers? Now, pass the Ale, I don't want to remember my last 3 games.

[Grey Mage]

1) Razorbacks are fragile, use sparringly... and remember that 6 man GH squads are even more fragile and should be used atleast as sparingly.

 

2)But some stormshields in their to take the plasma hits, or drop it down to a 5 man unit with 3 AC and a wolf priest....

 

3) My god that unit must be expensive.... so expensive I wouldnt have considered taking it. Obviously powerful... and thus a prime target for shooting. Try switching to bloodclaws for a few games and see how it does you.

 

4) Oi, switch it around.... TLLC and heavy bolter sponsons. Or swap it out for a vindicator or some attack bikes.... theres more than one way to break a bunker.

 

Personally I think its a slump... Ive yet to have a problem killing codex marines. A few close games, but only one loss in 20 so far.

[Wolf PupE]

It sounds more like tactics are your problem.

 

Grey Mage has given you good advice.

 

I have played BC Bikers before. A nice big squad with a Wolf Priest attached with healing balms (BC Bikers are expensive)

The shoot freakin hard and with the ''new'' counter attack they aren't useless anymore.

 

Your army has 2 big power units but that might be the problem. Your army is very expensive!

 

It might be a good idea to look at army comp.

 

Good luck brother!

[TAVAAR]

1 - I usually only run 2GH squads with the RB's

 

2 - I have put SS on them, funny...I cant make those saves ever either... (think this might just be the way I'm DPing them though, more specifically where)

 

3 - It's actually pretty reasonable considering I kill sever squads outright with it, just when I cant, every LC, PC, PG, MM, MG etc suddenly sees me...3d6 x3 Aegis spotting never works for me...

 

4 - I might try the TLLC/HB, I've avoided it as it's more expensive and I'm biting for points anyway. My Vindi's have a habit of getting one shot then stunned or shaken the rest of the game... and like I said, bikes are too expensive for my liking, they cant do enough for their points...

 

I have decided that I like Dawn of War and occasionally spearhead, but that's it. Objective games always go bad for me and I drop too many shaky armor KP for annihilate (why is it that I can play aggressive with my Eldar tanks but Marine tanks die...)

 

I don't mind losing...what I do mind is losing and not figuring out what went wrong and how to learn from it...

 

Thanks for the advice, more is welcome (and probably needed).

[LPetersson]

I would suggest an LRR against power armour.

AP3 flamers are lovely this time of year :-)

 

My lists tend to be something like

VenDread, WGBL+BC Bikers, 1 or 2 GH units, 1 or 2 BC units, and then whatever vehicles I can afford.

I like to put the troops into into rhinos or the LRR and pounce across the field.

 

I almost never leave home without 8 BC bikers, 1 WGPL Biker and my WGBL biker.

Pricey, yes, but they have only ever failed me once and even then they redeemed themselves. Try them and you'll see what I mean (Hint: Use them on a flank)...

 

Drop podding is, in my limited experience, all about dropping down next to terrain so you can minimise how much you're getting shot at in the opponents turn. Ever since I learned that, my drop podding experiences have mostly been happy (For me, less so for my opponents ;)).

 

How many points do you normally play for when you use that list? 1500? 2000?

I'd be tempted to suggest dropping the horrendously expensive GK unit and put Ragnar with some Grey Hunters instead. In an LRR. That tends to work well for me...

 

Oh yeah, and get some new dice and keep your current ones for leadership tests :-D

[TAVAAR]

I usually play 1850pts, so my HQ's eat up a lot, hence I have stayed away from bikers.

 

I posted an army list I just whipped up in the army list section. It's titled "1850 list (maybe for tourney's)." Check it out and let me know what you guys think. I did my best to stay away from "power gamer" units and get some more balance. Still no bikers and a heavy lake of armor...bye bye HQ Dread ;)

[Wolf Guard Hengist]

Over the last 5 or 6 months I have been running the Wolf Guard Pod of doom (The 3 AC one) in every game that I have played and for the first 10 or so games I was so close to putting them back on the shelf in my garage with the other failed projects. However I then changed my tactics and realised the other assets this unit have. I'll try and explain my theories and opinions on the best use of this unit, in most games I use the following set up:-

 

WGBL, Assaultcannon, Frostblade

WG1, Assault Cannon, Chainfist

WG2, Assault Cannon, Chainfist

WG3, Combi/Plasma, Power Wep

WG4, Combi/Plasma, Power Wep

All with TDA, Wolf Pelts, Runic Charms.

 

Ok in my standard list I only ever have one Drop Pod so these boys are coming down on turn 1 no matter what. This can leads to the first problem of "Do I take first turn or not?" I would say that in Spearhead and Pitched battle deployments I would be tempted to take first turn and in most Dawn of War battles I would give up the first turn and wouldnt try to seize the initiative (If you win the dice roll of course, que Ven Dread). I am a great believer in making my opponent react to me by the way I deploy and the way I play if I change my battle plan according to his set up then whats the point in having a plan?

 

If I deploy my troops first and he knows theres a drop pod full of frothing nutters armed to teeth coming down on turn 1 hes going to be thinking "oh bugger I need to be careful where I puy my units now because that Drop Pod is going to beat anything I leave exsposed." I usually leave the Drop Pod in plain view so he wont forget about it and make the odd comment about how badass the unit was in the last game. So far this unit is making the enemy sweat even before they have left the battle barge.

 

Now it is your turn 1 and the drop pod has got to come down, the enemy has most of his army down on the field with a few cheating gits in deep strike reserve but we aint bothered about them because we dont react to the enemies moves. So I've got this drop pod full of lead farmers that is going to spit death all over the enemy what I need to do is drop them near the enemies biggest baddest unit and kill them. Wrong! No! Bad!

 

I used to Drop the Wolf Guard next to a unit, open up with everything and probably cause a lot of damage on if not kill my intended target. Great stuff but now my Wolf Guard are in the open in the middle of the enemy lines and will probably draw the attention of most of the enemies guns and assault troops. This is great if you want to use your Wolf Guard as a one punch wonder but its a rather large chunk of points to be doing this and it gives away two kill points.

 

So Hengist if you are so clever how do you use your Wolf Guard now? Well the answer to that is by firstly changing your expectations of the unit, by this I mean the "God Syndrome" that comes with a 2+ save and 5+ inv save. I like to treat the unit like I would treat a fragile unit of Eldar in thier underpants. All the runic charms in the world wont save you from pie plates of doom and plasma spams which many armies can easily chuck at you.

 

In recent games I have dropped my Wolf Guard directly into cover and in some case behind terrain that would block line of sight to most of the enemy. This may seem like madness as you are giving up a full turn of shooting but for me it has some very valuable benefits. Firstly if in cover the entire unit gets the 4 up cover save and dont forget you would only need 3 of the 5 Wolf Guard in the terrain to get the cover save. Secondly the enemy now has a big bad wolf amongst his sheep, he cant ignore them as they will rampage all over his line. To deal with such a unit he is going to have to change his game plan and divert some mega resources to sort them out.

 

At this point it is turn 1 and your Wolf Guard havent even fired a single shot but have already impacted greatly on the battle, your opponent is filling his pants because he is now in the jaws of the Wolf and has to react to your cunning and clever moves. The second element affecting where I choose to drop my Pod is how fast can I get some back up over to them. Dropping on the back board edge is going to cause you some mega problems as the rest of your army cannot support the Wolf Guard. Its always nice knowing that there is a vindicator nearby to make smoothies of something or a pack of Blood Claws to counter attack an assault if needed. On thier own the Wolf Guard will make a mess for a turn maybe two but they will 9 time sout of 10 die, if you support them well they will rock all game long, I would try to never leave them unsupported for more than one turn if needed ideally you want thme supported fromthe moment they enter the game.

 

I hope this rant helps or if I'm teaching you to suck eggs just say "Shut up Hengist you old crow" :D

[roon]

Since you're obligated to add 3 HQ's in 1850pts, I would keep them cheap. A Wolf Priest is a good and fluffy choice. As is a WGBL, that can be cheap as well, to even allow you to add the Ven.Dread.

 

Boost your Grey Hunter squads with more bodies, and put them in Rhino's. Swap Ragnar for the Wolf Priest and let him lead a group of Blood Claws from the Land Raider Crusader.

 

Try to add bikes! I love them since I put them in my army, as they can be a real annoyance for the other player. Being fast and relentless. Dont let them run into a unit unsupported though. Make it a fast CC unit to add a real finishing punch, or fire magnet. Be sure to use the turbo boosts then :)

 

As an extra tank annoyance I am using a Lascannon Razorback for a small group of Grey Hunters. Deploy them separate, as the group of Grey Hunters can claim a home objective, and the Razorback, deployed on another place, can pick tanks. Has been a real annoyance for a Tau player once, as he was more focused on my heavy tanks, the Razorback popped it's skimmers turn by turn.

 

Another fluffy SW treat are Wolf Scouts. Making the deploymentzone of the other player a nice spot to pop heavy long-range artillery. It's something your opponent can't ignore. I'm using a small unit of 4, ussualy popping expensive Predators, or a Vindicator that came from reserves.

 

Hope this little advice from another fun-gamer helps :D

[Jonny Wolf]

Didn't read any of this, but I can tell you that the dice gods have been crapping all over my rolls for the last 3 months - and I mean bad.

 

I needed Ragnar to assault 2 inches out of difficult terrain - snake eyes

I needed a Wolf Priest to pass a leadership test without modifiers - 11 (not even 12, just 11 - just enough to really rub it in).

My Space Wolves can't hit the dirt in front of them when they shoot -

Etc,

Etc,

Etc...seriously, I'm like my own personal null zone at the club. People love playing me now.

 

Oh, and for the record I am an Airborne Ranger Infantry Officer by trade, my tactics are sound, lol...BUT MY FRIGGIN' DICE CAN BURN IN HELL!!!!!! ARRRGHHHHHHHHHH :) :D

 

Violent flashes of Sledgehammer meets small bits of plastic come to mind often...

 

Anyway...

[Roland Durendal]

Didn't read any of this, but I can tell you that the dice gods have been crapping all over my rolls for the last 3 months - and I mean bad.

 

I needed Ragnar to assault 2 inches out of difficult terrain - snake eyes

I needed a Wolf Priest to pass a leadership test without modifiers - 11 (not even 12, just 11 - just enough to really rub it in).

My Space Wolves can't hit the dirt in front of them when they shoot -

Etc,

Etc,

Etc...seriously, I'm like my own personal null zone at the club. People love playing me now.

 

Oh, and for the record I am an Airborne Ranger Infantry Officer by trade, my tactics are sound, lol...BUT MY FRIGGIN' DICE CAN BURN IN HELL!!!!!! ARRRGHHHHHHHHHH :) :D

 

Violent flashes of Sledgehammer meets small bits of plastic come to mind often...

 

Anyway...

 

Good to see another Army officer enjoying this game. Stuck here at Benning and can't find anyone to play.

[Ullr Direfang]

Didn't read any of this, but I can tell you that the dice gods have been crapping all over my rolls for the last 3 months - and I mean bad.

 

I needed Ragnar to assault 2 inches out of difficult terrain - snake eyes

I needed a Wolf Priest to pass a leadership test without modifiers - 11 (not even 12, just 11 - just enough to really rub it in).

My Space Wolves can't hit the dirt in front of them when they shoot -

Etc,

Etc,

Etc...seriously, I'm like my own personal null zone at the club. People love playing me now.

 

Oh, and for the record I am an Airborne Ranger Infantry Officer by trade, my tactics are sound, lol...BUT MY FRIGGIN' DICE CAN BURN IN HELL!!!!!! ARRRGHHHHHHHHHH ;) :)

 

Violent flashes of Sledgehammer meets small bits of plastic come to mind often...

 

Anyway...

 

Good to see another Army officer enjoying this game. Stuck here at Benning and can't find anyone to play.

 

ahh, a story i know all to well. when i started playing warhammer i played dwarfs, they did well once i learned to play them, i almost never lost. but the next year i started to buy IG. didn't play many games with them until i had 1850 points. then i started using the only dice i had, The Runic Dice of Karak Grungron. i spent some time away from frantasy, and even stopped doing my gamer geek ritual of aligning all the dice in their case so all the faces were in the same diction.... that's when it happened. i started to get fantsy games in again, before the dwarfs changed, and the dice goods hated me. i lost many games.

 

around that time i started to buy up my wolves and some bretonnians. i decided to buy dice for the wolves, and they did very well, just ask my friend (7, yeas 7, 5+ invulnerable saves made), so i used them for my dwarf army, and they started winning again. so now i have three sets of dice: one for my Dwarfs and Wolves, one for my bretonnians, and i still use the first ones for my IG. they might not be around much longer though because they are even starting to hate my IG

[MechSpacewulf]

This is in regards to your....

 

2 - Uber WGBL sqaud of 3 AC Drop Podded (the 380ish pts one)

-these don't kill enough in one turn, never get assaulted and get shot up with PG, MG, or LC before my next turn

 

This is one squad I almost always use however I never pod them and always give them ALL Runic Charms( that one always irks my enemies ) and I just keep moving ( you have more range then a MG so that will eliminate that threat ) and shooting them until I have no other choice but to get into HTH but I try to keep that from happening until turn 4 or 5... in one game the squad took out a vindis demolisher cannon. I even add some Fenrisian wolves to further bulk up the wound points and add some extra attacks if that HTH thing does happen. Not the most Wolfy thing to do but that is what BC's are for... CHARGE!!! I have a blast coming up with new tactics and lists and I always keep in mind that the moves that I make with a real good list and solid deployment can not compensate if the dice take a crap on you... I have won a couple of games were I should have solidly lost but my opponents dice blew up in his face which we all have experienced many times. Learn, move on, take note your legitimate tactical errors and have fun.

 

Rock On Wolf Brother

 

Rädsla är sinnet mördare

Fenrisian Translation: Fear is the mind killer

[Wolf89]

I didn't read much of the others posts, but common, you're winning with HE's it's not like the dice helped you, what did your stardragon take only one wound a game instead of two? :)

 

As GM said, those units are expensive, objectives win games, and troops are the way to win them, so get more stronger units of troops and at the MOST have 1 razorback with 6-man GH squad.

 

Don't include inquisition, the only excuse is the 32pt. inquisitor with 2 mystic retinue for those pesky deep strikers... that's it.

[stinkenheim]

3 - LRC with Ragnar, GK GM with GK termi retinue x6

-this works wonders and kills anything it hits, even 10 man termi squads with force commanders, in one turn. Then I find out that I cant make 2+ for my life and cover is never close enough to help my Inv saves.

 

hate to break it to you but we cant take a grey knight grand master as allies can't use up a compulsory choice, and all our hqs are compulsory...

 

i always used to run ragnar with some grey hunters, they got the same no. of attack as blood claws but beter ws + bs... also with drop podding your wgbl and termies... are they unsupported or do you drop them with the grey hunters in the razorbacks? if they are unsupported then thats probably one of the reasons they get shot up so baly... its just reacting to the immediate threat. have you considered scouts for tying up dev squads or destroying their preds/vindies... combined with the drop pod unit you should be able to negate a fair bit of high ap shooting at you

 

as for razorbacks with the grey hunters... i find that the squad sizes are too small that way, you need a 10 man squad imo to getint combat as an effective unit.

[Wolf89]

3 - LRC with Ragnar, GK GM with GK termi retinue x6

-this works wonders and kills anything it hits, even 10 man termi squads with force commanders, in one turn. Then I find out that I cant make 2+ for my life and cover is never close enough to help my Inv saves.

 

hate to break it to you but we cant take a grey knight grand master as allies can't use up a compulsory choice, and all our hqs are compulsory...

 

 

I didn't even notice this, I assumed it was a Brother-Captain, yes this is illegal, you can't use a GKGM

[dragon950]

Thats your problem right there, your consorting with our hated foes right there. Get rid of the inquistion and you should be rolling fine. Another thing is I almost never use drop pods for my assualt units, they get shot up too fast. Save the drop pods for terminators or GH with bolters.

 

I'm also sure that sheilds still only work in close combat so look that up.

[TAVAAR]

 

hate to break it to you but we cant take a grey knight grand master as allies can't use up a compulsory choice, and all our hqs are compulsory...

 

i always used to run ragnar with some grey hunters, they got the same no. of attack as blood claws but beter ws + bs... also with drop podding your wgbl and termies... are they unsupported or do you drop them with the grey hunters in the razorbacks? if they are unsupported then thats probably one of the reasons they get shot up so baly... its just reacting to the immediate threat. have you considered scouts for tying up dev squads or destroying their preds/vindies... combined with the drop pod unit you should be able to negate a fair bit of high ap shooting at you

 

as for razorbacks with the grey hunters... i find that the squad sizes are too small that way, you need a 10 man squad imo to getint combat as an effective unit.

 

 

Every GM and opponent I've talked with/played respectively has ruled that they CAN be taken. As it has all been friendly games and no complaints this is a minor issue and if need-be I can always take a GKT squad as an elite if I so desire, whatever way you read the 3E rules/FAQ's (who writes these anyway, not gamers I'm sure as you can't even understand the answers half the time on older dex's anyway, they just add more questions on clarificaiton...)

 

Anyway if you haven't seen the newer lists I posted it with variant options in the ARMY LISTS section. "1850 list (maybe for tourney's)"

check it out and let me know what you think

[Grey Mage]

1 - I usually only run 2GH squads with the RB's

 

2 - I have put SS on them, funny...I cant make those saves ever either... (think this might just be the way I'm DPing them though, more specifically where)

 

3 - It's actually pretty reasonable considering I kill sever squads outright with it, just when I cant, every LC, PC, PG, MM, MG etc suddenly sees me...3d6 x3 Aegis spotting never works for me...

 

4 - I might try the TLLC/HB, I've avoided it as it's more expensive and I'm biting for points anyway. My Vindi's have a habit of getting one shot then stunned or shaken the rest of the game... and like I said, bikes are too expensive for my liking, they cant do enough for their points...

 

I have decided that I like Dawn of War and occasionally spearhead, but that's it. Objective games always go bad for me and I drop too many shaky armor KP for annihilate (why is it that I can play aggressive with my Eldar tanks but Marine tanks die...)

 

I don't mind losing...what I do mind is losing and not figuring out what went wrong and how to learn from it...

 

Thanks for the advice, more is welcome (and probably needed).

 

1) More troops is better, if you run say one razorback squad and one larger rhino squad the razorback squad will take alot of heat off of them... and if you have both razorbacks and a rhino squad or a razor and two rhinos... even better.

 

2) Definitely time for a wolf priest. Also remember that flanking with a drop pod is better than a frontal assault unless youve got atleast three of them, if not four.

 

3) Yeah... I can see that. Like I said... very powerful unit obviously. If theyre being wiped out regularly it might help to have a bit of a change... if its just an occaisional thing Im afrad it just happens some days.

 

4) Have you tried using extra armor to maintain there mobility? With the decent front armor of a predator mobility can help you get out of LOS of the enemy and unstun yourself for a bit. You might also consider making room for a second one... this would also take heat off of your razorbacks.

 

As for the eldar tanks vs marine tanks- eldar know theyre tanks are shaky and so they have upgrades to counter it... marines are still in denial so all they get is extra armor.

 

A few other ideas- consider drop podding some larger GH packs right at the enemy, or say just two squads of 8 in drop pods instead of the razorbacks and then see if you can find room for a dreadnaught in a pod.... preferably ironclad. Then drop the GHs in later right on top of the objectives while using your LR and termies to contest others. Ive found it works pretty solidly for me.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Didn't read any of this, but I can tell you that the dice gods have been crapping all over my rolls for the last 3 months - and I mean bad.

 

I needed Ragnar to assault 2 inches out of difficult terrain - snake eyes

I needed a Wolf Priest to pass a leadership test without modifiers - 11 (not even 12, just 11 - just enough to really rub it in).

My Space Wolves can't hit the dirt in front of them when they shoot -

Etc,

Etc,

Etc...seriously, I'm like my own personal null zone at the club. People love playing me now.

 

Oh, and for the record I am an Airborne Ranger Infantry Officer by trade, my tactics are sound, lol...BUT MY FRIGGIN' DICE CAN BURN IN HELL!!!!!! ARRRGHHHHHHHHHH :P <_<

 

Violent flashes of Sledgehammer meets small bits of plastic come to mind often...

 

Anyway...

 

Still, you're giving the civvies pleasure in be able to defeat a professional ;)

 

Swift and Bold

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

wouldnt ragnar for 3d6 because he is an independent character?

 

WLK

[Grey Mage]

Not when hes with a squad.....

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Not when hes with a squad.....

 

sorry, saw no mention of a squad.

 

WLK

[Jonny Wolf]

Yeah, he had a WGBG with him still.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

oops, my bad...

 

WLK

[afunnynoob]

So I started using my SW dice for my High Elves and am on a Massacre streak but now I can't seem to win (barely tying in some cases) with my Wolves... and most of these ARE AGAINST 'NILLA MARINES! I'm not sure whether to get new dice or switch tactics completely.

 

If I did I would want to know what my brothers think of these:

 

1 - I ussually run 1 or 2 GH squads with MG in a Razorback w/ LC and TLPG's

-these have died real quick an in Annihalate this has hurt more than helped

 

2 - Uber WGBL sqaud of 3 AC Drop Podded (the 380ish pts one)

-these don't kill enough in one turn, never get assaulted and get shot up with PG, MG, or LC before my next turn

 

3 - LRC with Ragnar, GK GM with GK termi retinue x6

-this works wonders and kills anything it hits, even 10 man termi squads with force commanders, in one turn. Then I find out that I cant make 2+ for my life and cover is never close enough to help my Inv saves.

 

4 - Predator w/AC and Sponsoon LC's

-never makes its points and rarely gives me any tactical advantage after one turn of shooting except as a bullet magnet (just enough so it cant shoot then they focus on the other stuff)

 

 

Drop Podding has yet to worked for me and the mech lists get blown to pieces too quick, I'm thinking of foot slogging. I'd love to run some bikes but BC bike's are pretty much useless for their points.

 

Have any of my brothers found 'Nilla marines to be such a thorn in the side? Is this a downturn or slump? Or do I need new dice?

 

What has worked well for my brothers? Now, pass the Ale, I don't want to remember my last 3 games.

 

"Dude...it states in the FAQ that if you take on GK then you can't drop pod"...lol...o wait!!! IT"S NOT IN THE NEW FAQ!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Hey man try more troops. and oooooooooooooooo try to drop around or into terrain then. Yous now have cover!!!!!