Durfast Spiritwolf Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Lord Insanity and Aurelius Rex have put together a fantastic alternative histories but their lack of SW lore has led to the misunderstanding that the Legion could have ever fallen to the Khorne - of all the examples it is clearly the least considered. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...155430&st=0 http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=155430 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sköll Khan Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Its been argued a 1000 times and will be 1000 more. Can wolves fall to Chaos? I might be a wolf but I know we're not perfect. Yes, we can fall. The Canis Helix and the rite of Morkai certainly provide the wolves a certain level of protection. I mean every recruit has over come the temptations of Khorne, but years of battle and the beast within constantly testing, wolves break, and every skull is a skull for the skull throne whether taken in the name of the imperium or not. If Russ had turned to Khorne, the the wolves would have followed. Wolves have turned against the imperium, and joined Huron and his corsairs, Skyrar's Darkwolves are if not chaos, are at least not on the imperial books. As the 13th Company say: "nothing remains untaited in the warp" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1925642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I can't say I like the Alternate Heresy project and yes while Wolves can fall to Chaos, Russ and the entirety of the Space Wolves is incredibly unlikely, like Sanguinius and Dorn, Russ was far too loyal to the Emperor, it was mostly the misfits that joined Horus, feeling more in common to him and his goals than with the Emperor on distant Terra. With a few exceptions the way the fluff is written really doesn't leave much if any room for the other Legions to fall to Chaos. The Canix Helix doesn't hurt either, while small numbers of Wolves can and have turned to Chaos, the Canis certainly provides a significant boost to the Space Wolves ability to resist Chaos, especially when it's manifested as the 13th Company prove. Most men, even Space Marines would go insane exposed to Chaos for so long, the Curse of the Wulfen is almost certainly what protects the 13th Company and allows them to survive, as every single member has manifested the Curse. We ain't perfect but this Alternate Heresy stuff is stretching the realm of belief well past the breaking point IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1925667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunchb0x Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 nope wolves can not and will not fall to Khorne. No wolves can not fall to even Chaos. Their own traditions and codes would prevent this from ever happening. Their Sense of HONOUR is a bit to extreme vs. the other chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1925668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 You could say the traditions of any marine would stop them from falling. OR You could say the traditions of any marine make them more likely to fall to chaos then any other. They have a huge amount of power... and power corrupts. Their combat abilities are astronomical accross the board *no pun intended* and so they attract khorne. They are denied many worldly pleasures and so are open to the lure of them from slaanesh. Many seek knowledge or to break free from the decay of the imperium and so are open to Tzeentch, and many others are part of that decay and are in many ways open to nurgle... not to mention to someone virtually immune to disease the threat of death by disease can be a doorway to that unclean ones service. Yes, wolves are supremely resistant to chaos taint, and yes I hate the damn story about huron blackheart turning some wolves... but I cannot say that not wolf would turn to chaos. In the grim darkness of the future no one, and I mean NO ONE is safe from chaos, not even the emperor himself, may he bless himself. Anyone can find that taint in themselves... for the chaos gods are nothing more than aspects of our darker parts that are taken to such extremes they can never again be hidden. Thus we must always watch for them, always fight their influence, and be wary lest that fight itself drive us into them with open arms. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1925714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 The guys who make those Alternate heresy stuff just simply switch legions around. Which is stupid as we all know the first to fall is and always will be Lorgar of the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1925747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 You see, I think some of you hve missed the point of the "Alternative" Stuff. The argument is that rather than some Primarchs being inherently "flawed" and thus more sensitive to the depredations of Chaos, those who fell fell because of certain events - for example, the Council at Nikea alienates the Thousand Sons; Angron being "stolen" from his armies by the Emperor plants resentment in him... The Alternative Heresy says - What If certain key events went the other way? What If instead of condemning Magnus, The Emperor instead chastises Russ for daring to speak out against his brother? What If Dorn felt slighted by Him when he was withdrawn? What if Horus listened to Magnus, and Lorgar was rewarded for his devotion to the Master of Mankind? These are the ideals at the core of these Alternate views, and personally, I can see Russ' proud warrior heart and hatred of witchcraft turning him to Khorne if the Emperor had "betrayed" him... Of course, that's not what happened. But the What If? is still interesting... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1925793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 Oh, I understand the 'what if' thing and could imagine Russ going his own way if he thought that he knew better but I believe that the whole Legion turning to Khorne would require a more complex series of events, including significant mutation of the gene seed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1925851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Neh, the geneseed governs the body, not the mind and the soul. Not directly anyways. The Wulfen is not some gaurdian spirit... its a way of thinking and a set of hormones... because its based on biology. Thus without a will to back it its as useful as a wetpaper towel in an Iron Warriors prison. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1925896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Loken Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 The only Chapter not to have any members fall to chaos are the Grey Knights and they aint your regular super humans. I like the Wolves a lot but some have fallen just as others have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1925914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sköll Khan Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Plus the "Curse!" of the wulfen has been and could be turned to the use of Chaos. In Wolfs Honour, Madox and Magnus plan to corrupt the legion by turning them all to wulfen, not to chaos. What would happen if all the wolves turned to wulfen? WH p319: Blood will flow across a dozen worlds, the wolves will turn upon the sheep they once swore to protect. Millions of Imperial citizens will die, and that would just be the beginning... the inquisition would declare the Space Wolves excommunicae traitoris, and then there would be war... Fenris would be virus bombed...they would flee to the Eye of Terror... the Imperium would need 1000s of years to rebuild" ...and if the only way to avoid chaos is to turn to the wulfen then, the space wolves would (WH p394) live a life without oaths or duty... living only for the red joy of the hunt" sounds like the life of most M41 World eater to me. Remember Khorne is not worshipped in the same way as other gods, would the Betrayer, if face to face with Khorne himself, bend his knee to him, no he'd probably take a swing at him. I think anyone who claims that Russ would never have turn, has been spending too much time with the Ecclesiarchy and not enough time in the Ale halls. Russ (WH p329) "was not the blessed Primarch, but a black haired, flame eyed warrior who was more wolf than man", he had "a rough manner, intemperate heart", "swore wild oaths" and had "petty rivalries", a "melancholic nature and merciless rage" Plus as far as i'm aware Russ was the first Primarch to strike the Emperor in a fit of rage (WH p329). Being Werewolves does not help your case against not turning to Chaos. Khârn would never bow to Khorne, The Night Lords have never turn to Chaos and Fulgrim himself turned back, but had become possessed... If you would turn on the Imperium or its citezens for any reason you become a "slave to darkness". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1925924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 The only Chapter not to have any members fall to chaos are the Grey Knights and they aint your regular super humans. I like the Wolves a lot but some have fallen just as others have. We are talking all here, not some If you would turn on the Imperium or its citezens for any reason you become a "slave to darkness". So, it's an either with us or against us argument - hummm, sounds a bit too Republican for this wolf B) I'm looking forward to seeing how the authors deal with the SW, maybe they can find a series of events that would be believable but at present it just lacks any depth with regards to the IV Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1925946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Plus the "Curse!" of the wulfen has been and could be turned to the use of Chaos. In Wolfs Honour, Madox and Magnus plan to corrupt the legion by turning them all to wulfen, not to chaos. What would happen if all the wolves turned to wulfen? WH p319: Blood will flow across a dozen worlds, the wolves will turn upon the sheep they once swore to protect. Millions of Imperial citizens will die, and that would just be the beginning... the inquisition would declare the Space Wolves excommunicae traitoris, and then there would be war... Fenris would be virus bombed...they would flee to the Eye of Terror... the Imperium would need 1000s of years to rebuild" ...and if the only way to avoid chaos is to turn to the wulfen then, the space wolves would (WH p394) live a life without oaths or duty... living only for the red joy of the hunt" sounds like the life of most M41 World eater to me. Remember Khorne is not worshipped in the same way as other gods, would the Betrayer, if face to face with Khorne himself, bend his knee to him, no he'd probably take a swing at him. I think anyone who claims that Russ would never have turn, has been spending too much time with the Ecclesiarchy and not enough time in the Ale halls. Russ (WH p329) "was not the blessed Primarch, but a black haired, flame eyed warrior who was more wolf than man", he had "a rough manner, intemperate heart", "swore wild oaths" and had "petty rivalries", a "melancholic nature and merciless rage" Plus as far as i'm aware Russ was the first Primarch to strike the Emperor in a fit of rage (WH p329). Being Werewolves does not help your case against not turning to Chaos. Khârn would never bow to Khorne, The Night Lords have never turn to Chaos and Fulgrim himself turned back, but had become possessed... If you would turn on the Imperium or its citezens for any reason you become a "slave to darkness". QFT. x 3. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1925957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Loken Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 The only Chapter not to have any members fall to chaos are the Grey Knights and they aint your regular super humans. I like the Wolves a lot but some have fallen just as others have. We are talking all here, not some Fair enough but if some can turn then all could turn, that's why the inquisition keep a close eye on all Chapters. All I'm saying is that I think it's naive to say that a chapter is immune to turning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1926011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 Fair enough but if some can turn then all could turn, that's why the inquisition keep a close eye on all Chapters. All I'm saying is that I think it's naive to say that a chapter is immune to turning. I'm not sure how "naive" as an adjective can be used to describe someone who is questioning the logic of another's argument based on the science fiction written so far on the SW - it's not the real world you know :D I suggest that, given the background, they would be highly resistant so it would have to be imaginative to overcome that and, at the moment and in my opinion, it isn't. We all know that GW can change everything at the drop of a hat anyway :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1926196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Wolves care about the normal humanes they where created to protect, This gives them a extra protection against chaos on top of the whole wulfen thing. We dont think where better than normal humans so where not all high and mighty and full of our selves so chaos has less straws to grasp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1926265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 When the question is raised as to whether the Wolves would or wouldn't have turned to Chaos, PRE-HERESY, I implore readers to look at one thing and one thing alone; The 13th Company. Yeah, I tout their abilities in combat and wolfocity daily (either here or elsewhere), but really, look at them. This entire company of Space Wolves has, though their bodies may be mutated and warped, stayed loyal and true to the Emperor and Russ, even though they didn't know that the Emperor has fallen. These guys, the 13th Company are Version 1.0 Space Wolves; The originals, the ones that served under Russ. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying current Space Wolves are not as badass as they are, nor unworthy of praise or undeserving of a title of staunch defenders of the Imperium. However, look at it this way. If, after ten thousand (Relative) Years in the Warp, on Chaos' home turf, isn't enough to turn a Company (let alone a whole Legion) to the ways of Chaos, what would? You could always say "If Russ went, the rest would follow." This is potentially true, but then it becomes a character analysis of Russ. Russ, warrior in spirit and body, is a fighter first and foremost. The Emperor won Russ's devotion ( as a warrior and a father) by besting him in single combat. I don't know if there's any other kindred spirits out there that follow the warrior path alongside me, but when someone does that, especially as handily as the Emperor beat Russ, there's no amount of conflict that can come between two brethren like that. The Emperor earned Russ's respect and undying loyalty on that day, regardless of if he ever felt "slighted". So when asked if the Emperor could have done something to turn Russ away, I would answer a resounding "No." Russ would not have joined the Heresy, hands down. However, I would grant that the Wolves COULD, conceivably, fall to Chaos, or more particularly Khorne. For the abovementioned reasons, the Wolves are unwittingly contributing to the power of Khorne for every foe they slay, and for every one of them that dies in battle. It is mentioned in the Chaos codex that even in dying, Chaos wins, for Khorne, at least, grows in power. Does that make them more succeptible to the taint of Chaos, however? The point is arguable at best. Take a look at other Close Combat chapters; Blood Angels, (supposedly) the Black Templars, and possibly the White Scars. In terms of strict assault, the Angels outstrip us (as much as I hate to say it) for sheer numbers of kills. Do they succumb to the temptation of Khorne? Hell, it's in their blood (no pun intended) to slaughter and to kill and maim and... Well, pretty much everything but "Burn" on an active basis. Yet they are no more inherrently Khornate than we are. I don't believe that just because we kill in hand to hand makes us any more vulnerable to Khorne. After all, our Rune Priests are no more vulnerable to Tzeench than any other Librarian, are they? This isn't to be said, though, that Wolves CANNOT fall. I just don't believe that they cannot fall en-masse. It is my firm convicition that the Blood Claws of the Wolf of Fenris (I believe that's the name of the Wolf ship that fell) fell to the sway of Chaos not because they were Wolves, not because they were close combat specialists, but simply out of the lure of power. I believe, since it is not mentioned in the fluff, that the Wolves that joined the Corsairs and turned on their allies were Blood Claws, inexperienced and still young, possibly heady from their transmutation into an effective super-human soldier. I can't say that if I were in the same situation, I wouldn't have done the same; Immediate power and honor for joining the enemy. Sudden rank jump from Lowest to Highest. From a strict "I want this now" perspective, it makes perfect sense, and is likely the reason the ship , and the wolves, fell. As Wolves, we must remember that above all, we are individuals as much as members of the pack. If one of us disagrees, we can go our own way, for our own reasons. There are countless precedents for this in the Wolfy way, with untold numbers of Wolves and Companies roaming the galaxy who have disagreed with a Great Wolf. We are, after all, only human, and if you ask me, the most human of any of the Chapters. We look out for ours and our own almost always, and if that involves taking our leave of the organization, that's what we do. Because we do so, however, does NOT mean that we immediately turn to Chaos. In summation: Pre-Heresy Wolves joining Heresy: Borderline impossible. The Emperor would have to personally cast out Russ for this to happen, likely with a punch or two to the face, maybe three. That's the only circumstance I can see it happening, and even then, Russ would likely forgive the Emperor. Post-Heresy Wolves turning to Chaos: Possible, but unlikely, on merit of we simply do what we want, not what a God wants. Post-Heresy Wolves succeptible to Khorne: No more than anyone else who kills someone. Remember, even Khornite Marines use Bolters. (That means that if the Wolves are vulnerable, so is every chapter that kills with a bolter. ... Uh-oh...) Anyways, that's my take on it. Y'all enjoy, and it's been fun thinking about. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1926337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Loken Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I'm not using naive to have a go. :P Any way I can't see GW suddenly turning the SW to chaos anymore than they would the Blood Angels or Ultramarines they're a popular part of the fiction. But in terms of the fiction all Chapters are suspected no matter how loyal they are. But hey whatever, a lot of GW fluff boils down to perspective that's mine and it's not yours. ;) Plus I think I've gone completely away from the topic about the alternative Heresy thing so I'm gonna bow out gracefully like a drunken swan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1926343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Excellent post Decoy, an Ale to welcome you back to the Fang! I think you've touched on all the major points here and highlighted why it's highly doubtful that as events stood, this idea of the Wolves falling is almost impossible. However: Pre-Heresy Wolves joining Heresy: Borderline impossible. The Emperor would have to personally cast out Russ for this to happen, likely with a punch or two to the face, maybe three. That's the only circumstance I can see it happening, and even then, Russ would likely forgive the Emperor. That's pretty much what happens in the Alternate Heresy that Aurelius Rex is working on - rather than the Emperor siding with the anti psykers, he sides with Magnus, and rebukes Russ. From there, with thoughts of rage and hate for his brothers, he is easy prey for the Chaos Gods, who are nothing if not cunning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1926353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneSniperSG Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 nope wolves can not and will not fall to Khorne. No wolves can not fall to even Chaos. Their own traditions and codes would prevent this from ever happening. Their Sense of HONOUR is a bit to extreme vs. the other chapters. Skyrar's Dark Wolves, lunchbox. That's all I'm going to say on that. The guys who make those Alternate heresy stuff just simply switch legions around. Which is stupid as we all know the first to fall is and always will be Lorgar of the Word Bearers. ... Opinions opinions. Bash creativity somewhere else, ok? Wolves care about the normal humanes they where created to protect, This gives them a extra protection against chaos on top of the whole wulfen thing. We dont think where better than normal humans so where not all high and mighty and full of our selves so chaos has less straws to grasp. Hm.. let's examine this. "It is my duty to protect this planet from the enemies of the Emperor." Tzeentch intervenes "I have to protect these people from that blood-soaked Guardsman! And.. the golden chair.. something about that.." I'm getting to my point now. Some of you guys need to sit down with the Chaos Daemons/Space Marines and the first three Heresy books. Re-examine what you know about Chaos. Chaos = chaos. It's like water. Any little crack it can find, it will fill. Any little reisistance it comes across, with enough time and exposure, the reisistance will rust and decay. Better to ask yourselves this. What makes Space Wolves different from, oh.. the Sons of Horus? Horus didn't want to betray the Emperor. Chaos filled the cracks of Horus' emotions and screwed with his head and turned him. Chaos does and can do that to anyone with enough time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1926422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 i actually like the Alternate Heresy threads... and lets not quote Wolf's Honor as a source...the book is a childish piece of crap. if the author could get Russ's hair color right when it is described by a marine who foughtt directly under Russ, then i would take it more seriously. but it doesnt, so i dont. i see wolf's honor as a wannabe-king going through the motions of being an author, bu no real talent there. as credible as a wiki article. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1926423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 The only Chapter not to have any members fall to chaos are the Grey Knights and they aint your regular super humans. I like the Wolves a lot but some have fallen just as others have. We are talking all here, not some Fair enough but if some can turn then all could turn, that's why the inquisition keep a close eye on all Chapters. All I'm saying is that I think it's naive to say that a chapter is immune to turning. Frankly not even all of the "traitor" legions turned.... it doesnt take everyone to become fallen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1926485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 That's pretty much what happens in the Alternate Heresy that Aurelius Rex is working on - rather than the Emperor siding with the anti psykers, he sides with Magnus, and rebukes Russ. From there, with thoughts of rage and hate for his brothers, he is easy prey for the Chaos Gods, who are nothing if not cunning. Y'see, even then, I can't help but think that Russ would end up saying "Well, he's the Emperor, he's my old man, so... Meh. He must know what he's doing." Not sure, but I kind of see that happening more than "Daddy doesn't love me!" ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1926556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 That's pretty much what happens in the Alternate Heresy that Aurelius Rex is working on - rather than the Emperor siding with the anti psykers, he sides with Magnus, and rebukes Russ. From there, with thoughts of rage and hate for his brothers, he is easy prey for the Chaos Gods, who are nothing if not cunning. Y'see, even then, I can't help but think that Russ would end up saying "Well, he's the Emperor, he's my old man, so... Meh. He must know what he's doing." Not sure, but I kind of see that happening more than "Daddy doesn't love me!" :P ironically enough, that is my person theory as well...the chaos primarchs are what we call "emo". but with a good enough revision, i can see certain loyal (any of them actually) changing roles. just remember, different isnt always bad, just different. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1926559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 i actually like the Alternate Heresy threads... and lets not quote Wolf's Honor as a source...the book is a childish piece of crap. if the author could get Russ's hair color right when it is described by a marine who foughtt directly under Russ, then i would take it more seriously. but it doesnt, so i dont. i see wolf's honor as a wannabe-king going through the motions of being an author, bu no real talent there. as credible as a wiki article. WLK Does that mean that we should ignore your post as you can't get the book title right - it's "Wolf's Honour" ;) :lol: :lol: I know, US dialect spelling etc, just kidding. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163782-has-he-never-heard-of-the-canis-helix/#findComment-1926670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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