Armored Cavalry

[damnyankee]

Traditionally the Mounted marine force is made of ten man tactical squads in rhinos. This configuration makes a balanced mechanized infantry force. As this configuration has been discussed in detail on this (and other,) forums, I will not discuss it further here. What follows is the case for an armored cavalry force.

 

First I would like to differentiate mechanized and armored cavalry. Mechanized means having machine transport for your fighting force. This is exemplified by the Rhino, good mobility, some armor, and no real weapons of its own. It moves the real combat force around and then supports them. This is the battle taxi force. Armored cavalry forces fight with and from their vehicles, using mobility as much a weapon as their cannons and missiles. Razorbacks and Predators are exemplary armored cavalry vehicles because they have mobility as well as fire power. The infantry in the force is their to support the vehicles, not the other way around.

 

Conceder the following two squads. First a ten man squad with lascanon and plasma gun mounted in a vanilla rhino that costs 225 points. The second is a 5 man squad in a Razor back armed with a lascanon/twin linked plasma and a storm bolter that costs 175 points. (First Caviat, I have not included sergeant upgrades as they are likely to be the same and a wash for comparison.) That’s a difference of 50 points for 5 marines. 10 points a marine is a good deal, However, its not apples to apples. Assuming both squads are mounted in their transport, both squads can stay stationary and shoot all of their heavy/special weapons, but the razor back has twin linked plasma that doesn’t get hot, significant advantage to the razorback. If they move 6 inches the rhino squad can shoot its plasma gun out to 12 inches, and cannot fire its heavy weapon at all. The Razorback can only shoot one of either of its weapons, and if it chooses the plasma gun it shoots as if it didn’t move and still doesn’t get hot, again advantage to the razorback. Dismounted the rhino marines have the advantage of twice the numbers. However, as the razorback is a separate unit, it can shoot at a different target than the squad, not something of insignificant value.

 

Obviously, putting all your eggs (or heavy/special weapons) in one basket has its disadvantages; a lucky penetrating hit destroys them both with one shot. Though, the same could be said of a luck frag missile. The choice of lascannon and twinlinked plasma gun is important because as two weapon systems you are not out all your firepower with one weapon destroyed result. I do not advocate this unit type as a single unit in a traditional army, but as a core unit in an armored cavalry army. This army functions by having plenty of long ranged heavy firepower, and more armored targets than most opponents are capable of dealing with.

 

Here is an example 1750 list for the sake of discussion.

 

Capt Cato Sicarius

 

Command Squad

Standard, champion

Razorback, TL HB EA

 

Tactical Squad (5 man)

Powerweapon + melta bombs

Razorback, Las/plas SB

 

Tactical Squad (5 man)

Powerweapon + melta bombs

Razorback, Las/plas SB

 

Tactical Squad (5 man)

Powerweapon + melta bombs

Razorback, Las/plas SB

 

Tactical Squad (5 man)

Powerweapon + melta bombs

Razorback, Las/plas SB

 

Stermgaurd Veterians

Razorback, TL AK

 

Techmarine

 

Landspeeder Typhoon

 

Predator, SB

 

Predator, SB

 

Whirlwind

 

Some notes about this list. Landraders are cool, but overpriced for this list. You need as many armored targets as you can for this to work. This list has 6 razorbacks (of three different types) two predators and a whirlwind, for 9 targets with AV 11 or beter, and one landspeeder. The landspeeder has 48” ranged weapons allowing it to sit back and shoot, requiring the opponent to designate long ranged weapons at it, weapons that can hurt your tanks. I’ve chosen Sicarius because he fits this list well. Giving one of those squads (and its razorback) scout will improve their (and the army’s) mobility. The Surprise Attack! helps this list go first, which is helpful for all this firepower. I chose the whirlwind because with all the other vehicles on the table you might not always have line of site to a good target, and the predators provide low cost, high armor. I skip the sponsons to save points. This is the same reason I don’t take full 10 man units and combat squad them: points for more razorbacks. I’m certain there are more optimized armored cavalry lists, I just put this up to start discussion.

 

Now I don’t think this is some ultimate list. However I do feel that it is on par with the traditional mechanized lists. I’m interested in feed back, and starting a discussion about it.

 

Christopher

[Jackelope King]

Hmm. Interesting. You've got the armor in quantities such that the enemy is going to be hard-pressed to kill all of them without packing some serious anti-tank. However, popping even one of the Razorbacks significantly curtails the unit's ability to perform its mission, and Razorbacks still use brown paper bags for armor. And you're correct in your analysis that it's slightly cheaper to get a las-cannon and a twin-linked plasma gun on a Razorback than buying them as special weapons for a 10-man squad.

 

The only big point of contention I'd make, without more insight as to how this sort of list has performed, would be that buying two five-man squads is cheaper than buying 1 10-man squad and then combat squadding it. It costs 90 points for the first 5 marines, then 80 more for the second five and two free lower-end special weapons. That said, the second combat-squad can't select its own Razorback as a dedicated transport, so your ability to overwhelm your enemy with armored targets starts to go down. But there's still something to be said for combat-squadding and leaving a small firebase with Missile Launchers behind to support your advance and ideally camp a home objective, even if it undermines your goal to deny the enemy uses for anti-infantry firepower. I'm also not really sold on the command squad: what are they going to do for you that a second unit of Sternguard isn't?

 

I'd also say that looking at this list, it relies on going first to make sure that dedicated anti-tank units eat oodles of gunfire first turn, leaving the enemy crippled in their ability to deal with your armored fist and making their anti-infantry weaponry basically useless. Rather than outright murdering the enemy anti-tank capability, have you considered deploying a hunter or two (to use the Warp Angel Killhammer parlance) to get the drop on them? A drop-podded ironclad dreadnought is gaurunteed to demand a lot of enemy attention, and a decent-sized unit of scout bikers can infiltrate right up to their front yard, scout to their front door, then spend the first turn happily practicing wheelies on their faces and making sure that they never get to take shots at your armored fist. They even make a pretty cheap torpedo rush on armored targets by giving the sergeant melta bombs, allowing you to take out an enemy tank that threatens your Razorbacks.

 

I'm also a little unsure of Sicarius: he seems sort of one-dimensional and rather pricey for the single ability you really want from him. He only brings your odds of getting first turn up when seizing the initiative from 17% to 30%, and with conventional wisdom at this point leaning a little towards giving your enemy first turn anyway, and many armies these days getting used to sitting in reserve for most of the game, I'm really not convinced he'd have a place in this list. His other abilities are sort of wasted on this list as well. I'd almost rather have a Master of the Forge for the stronger repair ability and added nastiness he'd hit with in close combat, or Pedro, who in an armored company could really provide a huge number of dismounted marines with his +1 attack to their profile. He'd also be able to ride with a marine tactical squad and add those extra few power fist attacks, and between dropping the command squad and Sicarius, you'd be able to field yet another unit of Sternguard in a Razorback. That would be six scoring units in armored transports, a tall order for most lists to deal with.

 

You might also consider picking Assault Marines without Jump Packs and taking their free Rhino or two. Stick these at the front of your armored advance and use them as the mobile terrain they are, let them shield the Razorbacks and providing a nasty surprise for any commander who cracks them open. At 90 points for a bare-bones Assault Squad + Rhino, this provides a pretty nice backup in case one Razorback gets popped and another unit needs a lift. For 100 points, you also get to throw a flamer in there, allowing assault marines to act as a nice screen to a forcibly dismounted Tactical Squad.

[Resv]

This is a very interesting idea and I do think it could use some discussion but I am afraid to say most of that discussion won't quite be what you wanted. To be perfectly honest, most of the contributors to this post will illustrate the major downfall with this list as this: 5 man Marine Tactical Units suck. You receive no special weapon nor do you have much in ablative wounds and could be taken out by a bad roll, a good shot, or one angry assault. Even when Combat Squaded a 5 man unit is weak and can be erratically swiftly. You could add in another marine to each unit and have 6 man squads but still this isn't a complete solution. You could also just take out two Razorbacks for a fully equipped Tactical Squad in a Rhino just of stand as an off set or hold on to that one Objective that requires a full 10 Man squad. In all honesty if you did this you might have a stronger army all around with out compromising to much of the doctrine you have set up for yourself.

 

All lectures aside, the next question is how do you see the role of your Troops in this army structure? Are they there to take objectives, there to act as a buffer to the Razorback, or there just to fill the requirement to field a Razorback. Tacticals are the backbone of any Marine Army and can make or break any game you encounter. I understand that you are trying strengthen your troops and keep them mobile but it seems like you might be sacrificing their usefulness to the Heavy Weapon gods. The next point I would like to make is the lack of hard hitting CC units able to deal with MCs and other strong CC units. You could end up losing quite a lot to a fast moving unit in assault. Perhaps outfitting your Command Squad a bit better might allow you to have an ace up your sleeve. The thing I would like to mention is how you have chosen to outfit your Razorbacks. With all of your Lascannon you have more than enough Anti-Tank. I would suggest mixing it up a bit and taking regular Heavy Bolters on one or two of your Razorbacks or switching over to Assault Cannon to help deal with infantry. Move some of those points over to your Predators and buy up their Lascannons as they have better front end armor and can take a bit more of a beating keeping them in the fight a bit longer.

 

The Strength of this army is that you can cover quite a bit of area with all of your tanks. You will be death on wheels to Armor and will stand a good chance of dealing with MCs. You can also play "Which tanks got the HQ!" and ruin your opponents day quite well. It will be interesting to hear how this list shapes up for you and I look forward to hearing any battle reports you might share.

[Jackelope King]

And by the way, here's how you can use the full 10-man marine squads to your advantage. You buy two tactical squads up-front with a Las/Plas Razorback each. Move one of the squads into a Land Raider with Pedro (these guys will camp objectives like it's their job). The other combat squads and takes both Razorbacks. This list loses a Razorback for a Land Raider, runs an extra Land Speeder Typhoon for anti-infantry purposes, gets you six scoring units, puts more Sternguard and their happy special ammo on the table, still gets you four Lascannon shots per turn (two from Razorbacks, two from the Land Raider), and provides tougher nuts to crack if someone does pop your Razorbacks (as you'll have considerably nastier units in them).

 

Pedro 175

 

2x 10-Man Tactial Squads w/ Melta, Heavy Bolter, Las/Plas Razorback 490

 

3x 5-Man Sternguard w/ HB Razorback 495

 

1x 2-Speeder Land Speeder Squadron w/ Typhoon Missile Launcher 180

 

1x Land Raider 250

 

2x Predators 120

 

16 KP, 1710 pts

 

With a little more tweaking, you could probably work in a unit of Scout Bikers to act as hunters to rush anti-tank infantry on turn one and plant some cluster mines on an objective.

 

With this sort of setup, you also don't need first turn as badly. Form a wall with the Land Raider and Preds, protecting the Las/Plas Razorbacks. Once you've neutralized the enemy anti-armor, you can fan out with the Dakka Preds and Razorbacks flanking the Las/Plas Razorbacks. Follow the same Armored Cavalry approach, with the Sternguard only popping out to neutralize infantry once they've been weakened enough.

 

I'm halfway tempted to say with this list, you can probably drop the Typhoon missile launchers (which add some nice anti-infantry possibilities) to take three multi-melta Land Speeders instead and have them zip around neutralizing armor. The only downside there is that you lose your range advantage that the armored cavalry otherwise provide.

 

I'm also sort of looking for a way to swap this around, get a Rhino-mounted Assault Squad, stick them in the Land Raider with Pedro and give their Rhino to another tactical squad, then have the tactical squad pop into the Land Raider after Pedro and the Assault Marines have disgorged.

[minigun762]

I think you have some potential with the idea. SM have a great deal of lighter armor and transports where they can make a armored list like that.

 

Razorbacks are rightly viewed as mobile heavy weapon factories. Even the Rhino with dual StormBolter is not a horrible amount of dakka for cheap.

Predators are dirt cheap for you and match up very well. Shooty Dreadnoughts and Land Speeders also work very well.

 

The first thing that pops into my mind with all those units is that their anti-infantry firepower is alot cheaper but you can't neglect the anti-tank. The main drawback to this idea is that 5 man squads aren't anything impressive against most units. You may be better off going with 10 man squads and combat squading them, but that remains to be seen.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Interesting concept though use of the US military term "cavalry" may be misleading here as cavalry in 40K enjoy certain rule benefits that don't apply in this case.

 

You might want to consider them as Armoured Infantry in Infantry Fighting Vehicles (such as Razorbacks and LRs) as opposed to Mechanised Infantry in Armoured Personnel Carriers (Rhinos) - leaves you with Air Assault Infantry in Thunderhawks and Drops Pods, and Space Assault Infantry in boarding torpedoes etc :devil:

 

Swift and Bold

[Dudley Nightshade]

This is a cool discussion. I have been working on a list with similar goals, but in my (hypothetical) version, I was thinking about a pair of Vindicators as the core, with everything else geared towards enabling their survival.

 

I hadn't considered the minimal Tactical squads in Razorbacks, though. That adds an interesting flavour.

 

Do you see Dreadnoughts fitting into your list?

[Captain Idaho]

My biggest bug bear with this one is the fact Rhinos have 2 fire points which makes them more useful when up close to the enemy (2x rapid firing models, or a special weapon plus 1 bolter etc).

 

So I take it the plan is not to rush opponents with these "Armoured Cavalry" units? How can you over come armies designed to get close to you, or objective taking?

 

I'm not being critical, I am genuinely asking because I have been thinking about Razorbacks alot for my own army and not so sure about the smaller squad sizes.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

Interesting topic, I've been mulling over Razorbacks for quite a while and the really are great. In small points games the can be a huge factor and in larger ones you can have so many, the problem that occurs to me is the amount of KP you offer.

[Warp Angel]

Fair ideas. Poor execution.

 

Land Raiders are not "too expensive", they are the 800lb gorilla of the armored force.

Rhinos are almost as effective as base razorbacks in firepower (if they don't move), and better anti-infantry if they do (both using firepoints)

As others have pointed out, 5 man marine squads have a horrible time taking objectives and/or holding them. And can't kill much on their own.

Razorbacks can be deployed with 10 man squads and don't ever need to actually transport that squad to be effective.

 

And in the real world, an Armored Force is supported by Mechanized Forces for a reason. Infantry do stuff vehicles can't. Bikes can keep up with mech forces.

 

Here's another 1750 list that still overwhelms with Armor without the same weaknesses.

 

Tactical x10, HB, Flamer, PF, Rhino 230

Tactical x10, HB, Flamer, PP, Razorback 225

Bike Captain, Hellfire, Relic Blade 175

Bike x8, Attack Bike, Flamer, Plasma, MM, PF, 310

Sternguard x5, Plasma Cannon x2, Razorback w/LC&TLPG 205

Land Raider Crusader w/MM 260

Pedro Kantor 175

 

120 points to play with, everyone can ride or keep up. 4-7 scoring units. If you don't like the bikes, make them 6 man sternguard squads with a razorback.

 

Far more firepower, better durability overall, same overwhelming with armor. Fewer Kill Points to offer your enemy. More versatile army.

[damnyankee]

Fair ideas. Poor execution.

 

Land Raiders are not "too expensive", they are the 800lb gorilla of the armored force.

Land Raiders are too expensive in this force. The idea is having a force that can move and fire its heavy weapons. A base land Raider can fire two weapons if it moves, where as 3 razorbacks can fire 3 weapons if they move. Highest net potential damage? Razorbacks. Not to mention that 3 razorbacks can shoot at 3 targets, while the Land Raider is restricted to only one target. I'm going to argue that the Razorbacks are more survivable too. One lazcanon shot CAN destroy a Land Raider. it CANNOT destroy 3 razorbacks.

Rhinos are almost as effective as base razorbacks in firepower (if they don't move), and better anti-infantry if they do (both using firepoints)

As others have pointed out, 5 man marine squads have a horrible time taking objectives and/or holding them. And can't kill much on their own.

Razorbacks can be deployed with 10 man squads and don't ever need to actually transport that squad to be effective.

Effective? That's a subjective argument. as I pointed out, a 10 man squad with a Rhino costs more than a 5 man squad with a up-gunned razorback, so you expect it to do more. The question isn't about the value of individual squads, but the effectiveness of a combined army. Ask the Yankees how having a bunch of really great units that cant play as a team works.

 

 

And in the real world, an Armored Force is supported by Mechanized Forces for a reason. Infantry do stuff vehicles can't. Bikes can keep up with mech forces.

Warhammer 40K has no resemblance to the real world. An "Armored Cavalry" force is a "mechanized force," that focuses on using their vehicles to fight. They are not what you would call an "Armored Force," IE being all battle tanks.

 

Here's another 1750 list that still overwhelms with Armor without the same weaknesses.

 

Tactical x10, HB, Flamer, PF, Rhino 230

Tactical x10, HB, Flamer, PP, Razorback 225

Bike Captain, Hellfire, Relic Blade 175

Bike x8, Attack Bike, Flamer, Plasma, MM, PF, 310

Sternguard x5, Plasma Cannon x2, Razorback w/LC&TLPG 205

Land Raider Crusader w/MM 260

Pedro Kantor 175

 

120 points to play with, everyone can ride or keep up. 4-7 scoring units. If you don't like the bikes, make them 6 man sternguard squads with a razorback.

If a razorback with 5 men Isn't worth it, then a land raider with 5 men certainly isn't worth it. See my above points regarding the land raider. I'm not sure why you would take a crusader over a vanilla land raider in this list.

 

Far more firepower, better durability overall, same overwhelming with armor. Fewer Kill Points to offer your enemy. More versatile army.

Its not a bad list, but its not at all what I discussed. Less mobility, and stuck in group-think. Its a traditional 5th ed marine army with a few tweaks. Lots of points in things that need to stay stationary to get full effect, and lots of things that can die to low strength weapons. I don't care how may lasguns you shoot at a razorback, your not going to hurt it. Expensive bikes can and do die to lasguns.

 

Christopher

[damnyankee]

The only big point of contention I'd make, without more insight as to how this sort of list has performed, would be that buying two five-man squads is cheaper than buying 1 10-man squad and then combat squadding it. It costs 90 points for the first 5 marines, then 80 more for the second five and two free lower-end special weapons. That said, the second combat-squad can't select its own Razorback as a dedicated transport, so your ability to overwhelm your enemy with armored targets starts to go down. But there's still something to be said for combat-squadding and leaving a small firebase with Missile Launchers behind to support your advance and ideally camp a home objective, even if it undermines your goal to deny the enemy uses for anti-infantry firepower. I'm also not really sold on the command squad: what are they going to do for you that a second unit of Sternguard isn't?

 

Close combat. I agree the command squad is probably the first place to look if you decide you need to add diffrent units. I just happen to like command squads.

 

I'd also say that looking at this list, it relies on going first to make sure that dedicated anti-tank units eat oodles of gunfire first turn, leaving the enemy crippled in their ability to deal with your armored fist and making their anti-infantry weaponry basically useless. Rather than outright murdering the enemy anti-tank capability, have you considered deploying a hunter or two (to use the Warp Angel Killhammer parlance) to get the drop on them? A drop-podded ironclad dreadnought is gaurunteed to demand a lot of enemy attention, and a decent-sized unit of scout bikers can infiltrate right up to their front yard, scout to their front door, then spend the first turn happily practicing wheelies on their faces and making sure that they never get to take shots at your armored fist. They even make a pretty cheap torpedo rush on armored targets by giving the sergeant melta bombs, allowing you to take out an enemy tank that threatens your Razorbacks.

 

all good ideas. I can certanly see the value of having a "shoot me first" unit. However, I'm not sold on the point value of the traditional candidates. Suicide scouts or a significantly angry dreadnought might do the trick however.

 

I'm also a little unsure of Sicarius: he seems sort of one-dimensional and rather pricey for the single ability you really want from him. He only brings your odds of getting first turn up when seizing the initiative from 17% to 30%, and with conventional wisdom at this point leaning a little towards giving your enemy first turn anyway, and many armies these days getting used to sitting in reserve for most of the game, I'm really not convinced he'd have a place in this list. His other abilities are sort of wasted on this list as well. I'd almost rather have a Master of the Forge for the stronger repair ability and added nastiness he'd hit with in close combat, or Pedro, who in an armored company could really provide a huge number of dismounted marines with his +1 attack to their profile. He'd also be able to ride with a marine tactical squad and add those extra few power fist attacks, and between dropping the command squad and Sicarius, you'd be able to field yet another unit of Sternguard in a Razorback. That would be six scoring units in armored transports, a tall order for most lists to deal with.

I'm not a huge fan of Pedro. I don't know... I just don't like taking units that I "have" to take. Sicarius also can give scout to a unit... I can then use that unit to perform the suicide scout trick... at the benefit of additional flexibility. Also, with several small squads leadership tests are going to be more important, and Sicarius gives me an edge their.

 

 

You might also consider picking Assault Marines without Jump Packs and taking their free Rhino or two. Stick these at the front of your armored advance and use them as the mobile terrain they are, let them shield the Razorbacks and providing a nasty surprise for any commander who cracks them open. At 90 points for a bare-bones Assault Squad + Rhino, this provides a pretty nice backup in case one Razorback gets popped and another unit needs a lift. For 100 points, you also get to throw a flamer in there, allowing assault marines to act as a nice screen to a forcibly dismounted Tactical Squad.

 

I have considered it, I like the idea but was leaning toward more weapons on the razorbacks. Your arguments are strong however, it bears consideration. I was also thinking about the traditional jump assault squad. They could hang back behind the vehicles and any squad that ended up needing help in assault could be supported by them, with out having to wait a turn to dismount from the rhino.

 

Christopher

[damnyankee]

This is a cool discussion. I have been working on a list with similar goals, but in my (hypothetical) version, I was thinking about a pair of Vindicators as the core, with everything else geared towards enabling their survival.

 

I hadn't considered the minimal Tactical squads in Razorbacks, though. That adds an interesting flavour.

 

Do you see Dreadnoughts fitting into your list?

Vindicators might work. I went with cheap predators because they are cheap. Vindicators will draw fire however.

 

I'm undecided on dreadnoughts at this point. I'm hoping this discussion will help come to some conclusion about them. They are heavly armed, however there mobility is weird they can move 6 and fire, but cannot move 12. I think there value in this list will be drop pods and the range of weapons they can be equipped with, allowing you to take tools you cant take on the razorbacks/predators.

 

Christopher

[Jackelope King]

I'm not a huge fan of Pedro. I don't know... I just don't like taking units that I "have" to take. Sicarius also can give scout to a unit... I can then use that unit to perform the suicide scout trick... at the benefit of additional flexibility. Also, with several small squads leadership tests are going to be more important, and Sicarius gives me an edge their.

The reason Scout Bikers are so good at pulling off the Scout Torpedo is that they can turbo-boost with their Scout move and shoot 24" into the rear of an enemy tank after Infiltrating as close as possible. They can also spray and pray with twin-linked Bolters before charging and pray for a glancing hit. EDIT: And once they charge, they've got krak grenades and the sergeant can carry melta bombs pretty cheaply.

 

That said, the strength of what you're recommending is the ability to move and fire long-range weapons while completely denying your enemy their ability to get much use out of their troopers' basic weapons while hoping to saturate the board with so much light armor that your opponent can never hope to kill it all. A standard-configuration Land Raider would be a large boon here. The Land Raider can move six inches and fire two twin-linked lascannons at two different targets (reread the Power of the Machine-Spirit ability for details in the Marine codex).

 

As you see with the list I suggested, you can pretty easily work in a Land Raider into a list of this size while still saturating the board with the heavy-weapon toting Razorbacks. The Land Raider will not only act as a big fire-magnet, but it can still carry a full-sized 10-man tactical squad (which get their extra five guys, special weapon, and heavy weapon) along with a captain of some form or another, making them dead-tough Defenders when it comes to camping on objectives. Then, that Tactical squad can hand off the Razorback which they bought to another 10-man Tactical squad with their own Razorback, so that when the second squad Combat squads (with their heavy and special weapon), both squads can be mechanized.

 

As for dreads, I love 'em. I'm building a list now (which I hope to test this weekend) that uses a pair of plasma-totting dreadnoughts as the guard dogs for my firebase. The enemy will likely be a lot less eager to rush my Thunderfire Cannon and Devastator-ish Sternguard when two dreads are loitering around out front of their position. For your list, they could provide the close-combat threat against anything other than MCs and squads with lots of power fists. I'd see your list as being quite good at kiting the enemy endlessly, constantly moving back 6", shooting anyone fast enough to threaten you, then moving back 6", or 12" if there aren't any good targets to shoot at / just need to get your Razorbacks away from. Dreads can, I believe, run, so they actually fit fairly well into this list.