Firing a flamer from a top hatch.

[ShinyRhino]

This situation came up during a game this week.

I had a Tactical Squad buttoned up in their Rhino. The opponent had a unit of Berserkers bearing down on me. Iopened fire with a frag shot, the Rhino's stormbolter, and a flamer on them. However, my opponent said I could not fire a flamer from the top hatch of a Rhino. I stared at him blankly for a moment, and then asked why not. Everyone at our shop does so. (The weekend tourney featured a meeting of two separate gaming clubs, and the visitors had some different rule interpretations).

My opponent claimed that you could not place template weapons over another unit in your army, and that my Rhino was a separate unit from the flmaer-armed Marine. I pointed out that Razorbacks have heavy flamer turrets now, but he countered that that situation was not firing over another unit, it was firing over itself.

I conceded the point, and just rapid fired a bolter instead. The Rhino was wrecked the next turn.

 

Is the flamer drive-by invalid now? If so, I'll have to shed some tears. I love my tacticals hunkered down inside their Rhino, blasting from the top hatches. But there's no use for a flamer if I can't fire it!

[Scott-S6]

It's yet another grey area.

 

- Templates have to be positioned with the narrow end touching the firing models base.

- The vehicle rules say nothing about vehicle template weapons.

 

Two popular workarounds:

1. Place template touching hull of vehicle.

2. Place template at point of firing (fire point or weapon muzzle as applicable) and ignore that it's hitting the vehicle.

 

1. is simple but can be abused, 2. is more "realistic" but you have to ignore a perfectly specific rule to make it work.

[Steelmage99]

Searchfunction.

[ShinyRhino]

Searchfunction.

 

The only relevant discussion involved the Razorback turret version of this argument, which I mentioned. I was looking for input specific to the Marine inside firing over the Rhino.

[Maijin]

I've seen too many Ork armies using the Battlewagon full of Burnaboys dominating local tournaments to say this tactic is illegal, and they are the absolute cheesiest example (10 flamer templates from one location out the side of a wagon). Not only is it ignoring the vehicle they are in, but also ignoring the fact that 10 guys cannot stand in the same spot. Every marine player I know still uses this tactic and I have yet to see a judge call foul.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

IIRC, Battlewagons are open-topped, which have their own set of rules for firing out of them. Rhinos, even firing from the access point, are not open-topped, thus the confusion.

[Hymirl]

This is a copy of a post I made on 40KOnline where the same question was also asked. My theory is that if you try to apply the lettering of the rule as far as your opponent did then that means you can never fire a flamer at all. And why therefore that the can't hit your own models argument can't apply in this case, the only logical solution is to ignore it - the only technically 'right' answer is obviously wrong.

 

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No, the 5th ed rule (which I quoted above) says "touch", not cover, in regards to not being able to touch friendly models. Here it is again, from page 31:

"Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so

that its narrow end is touching the base of the model

firing it and the rest of the template covers as many

models as possible in the target unit without touching

any friendly models."

 

Just stealing Don's quote a moment I think that its this point that renders the whole of the RAW theory to be inapplicable to this. The template must touch the model firing it but supposely can't touch a friendly model, theres no exception made for the model firing it other than rather wooly attempts to arbitarily decide what friendly models are (a term not defined in the rules).

 

It means that any argument against firing template weapons by or from a vehicle would be touching the vehicle in exactly the same way the template touches a firing model on foot. Since we know it can do one, (template weapons are in the game to be fired at people) it logically follows that there are some exceptions to the 'no touching friendly models' that would apply when you have permission to fire the weapon... a firepoint gives just that permission needed.

[Ming]

You got hozed. The guy probably drove all the way back to NH giggling in chaotic rapture.

 

Your template should have been placed as described above - touching the rhino and extending over your target. There are plenty of good reasons for it. Next thing you know, people will tell you their troops have gone to ground next to your tracks, and you can't see em'. Not that my marines wouldn't have the brass ones to lean over the side and look there....reach out and flame someone.

[ShinyRhino]

You got hozed. The guy probably drove all the way back to NH giggling in chaotic rapture.

 

Your template should have been placed as described above - touching the rhino and extending over your target. There are plenty of good reasons for it. Next thing you know, people will tell you their troops have gone to ground next to your tracks, and you can't see em'. Not that my marines wouldn't have the brass ones to lean over the side and look there....reach out and flame someone.

 

Yeah, I was trying to salvage some sportsmanship points from the match. There were some very iffy interpretations of LOS during the game as well. But that's neither here nor there.