Bell of Lost Souls Blog on Space Wolves

[Mudslinger]

JWolf over at Bell of Lost Souls did a blog regarding the "bottom half armies" in 5th edition. That is, the worst armies. Well, our beloved Wolves were included and here are his comments:

 

12) Space Wolves – Space Wolves? I almost forget about the Space Wolves – Fourth Edition saw these guys fade from glory for most local players, and having a phantom Codex means no new players pick them up. Space Wolves suffer from downsides in Fifth Edition (TLOS makes them more shootable, outflanking makes Wolf Scouts less unique) and get very few upsides. The end of Blood Claw Rhino rushes was the end of a Golden Age for these guys. Still a strong army in close combat, they would probably be higher on my list if I saw them more often.

 

Bummer review.

 

http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2009/0...ran-armies.html

 

What do the Long Fangs here in the Fang think about that?

[LPetersson]

I don't think it's really that bad...

Or unfair for that matter.

 

We are old, and you don't see C:SW in the shops, so he's right that new players might overlook us.

Sure, outflanking makes Wolf Scouts less unique, but not hugely so since we still have OBEL.

 

I didn't play 4th ed, so I don't know how the rhino rush worked.

 

At the end he pretty much says that we would place higher if he saw more of us...

 

All in all, pretty fair and balanced criticism I think.

And it's certainly better than the criticism of the other armies, some of which are genuinely broken...

[Vassakov]

I'll just Ctrl C/Ctrl V:

 

I'm going to add my voice to the comments being raised about the Son's of Russ being done a diservice - of the three SW players in the UKGT, they finished 25th, 39th and 89th. Hardly the 4th worst Codex in the game, especially considered that BA, DE and BT (all ranked above the Wolves) are well below them.

 

Now, we aren't broken in the sense of the CSM army build nor do we have the selling power of the normal SM/DA etc, actually in the models departrment we're haemorraging. The only ones worse off than us are the DE and 'Crons.

 

But a well played Wolves army will always have a good chance against anyother, and if I lived in Texas I'd be happy to show you why!

[Vash113]

Actually I don't see his assessment as fair, sure Space Wolves may not have an in print Codex but there are still regular new players and the SW continue to place well at tourneys. 5th Edition did more to help the SW than hurt the Codex I'd say, running and the new vehicle damage tables means that LRC rushes and infantry hordes are far more powerfull than before, Drop Pod lists are more potent too and we still pack quite a bit of power into our units and nearly unmatched cc capability. Not to mention retaining decent firepower at range. Outflanking doesn't come close to negating the uniqueness of Wolf Scouts I'd say, with Outflanking your units are coming in from one side or the other which may put them close to an enemy, or on the other side of the board. Wolf Scouts get to come on right behind a foe and do so reliably. I think JWolf is putting a little too much emphasis on popularity versus viability.

[JEFF4i]

Ehhhh, I don't agree on too many points. Most people are picking up other chapters, why? Let's look at Space Marine Codeciis, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templar, and Ultrasmurfs. So we're only going to get our share, it might be a touch smaller because of our old codex, but I still see people showing interest. Further, my scouts are still nasty strong, every single game I've used them they pay for their points, and more.

 

Frankly, of about 20+ people who play 40k every Sunday at my local place, I'm the only one who plays Wolves...I like it that way.

[LoneSniperSG]

Ehhhh, I don't agree on too many points. Most people are picking up other chapters, why? Let's look at Space Marine Codeciis, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templar, and Ultrasmurfs. So we're only going to get our share, it might be a touch smaller because of our old codex, but I still see people showing interest. Further, my scouts are still nasty strong, every single game I've used them they pay for their points, and more.

 

Frankly, of about 20+ people who play 40k every Sunday at my local place, I'm the only one who plays Wolves...I like it that way.

 

It's a good thing to be one of few sometimes. But I will dare to argue for the effectiveness of the Wolves. The fact that I went up against Daemons with my Wolves and did as well as I did against them with zero anti-demon experience and zero Fifth Ed experience.

 

Honestly. Our infantry rock hardcore. We get a hell of a lot of special weapons for our basic troops, unlike vanilla marines.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Frankly, of about 20+ people who play 40k every Sunday at my local place, I'm the only one who plays Wolves...I like it that way.

 

Happy with that :)

[Keercrevlis]

Well as far as I am concerned I love my Wolves. They are unique at my stores and I have a good record with them (7-2-1)(& one loss was b/c I conceeded b/c I Had to leave during turn 3) plus people know the Wolves and I love the looks I get when someone here's that is who they are about to play. Yes we lost some stuff in 5th ed. but I think that when the new codex comes out ( & even if it does not) we will/are be as good or better than any army in 40K. Oh well we are not the Marine army that is being pushed all the time in C:SM or by other avenues, but hey I have never heard anyone say "Oh, No I'm playing against (insert chapter name) marines!" but I do get "Your playing Wolves, I'm in for one hell ofa fight!".

[TAVAAR]

Yeah, I just read that this morning...

 

At first I was disappointed he ranked them so low, but you also have to remember that he's ranking them on what he has SEEN, PLAYED WITH or PLAYED AGAINST. You do have to give him the point that there are fewer and fewer Wolf players in proportion to others as a lot of people are starting into the game and dont see Wolves on the shelves, so they get other armies, thus the diproportion. Not that there are any less players, there are more brothers of the Fang, just proportionately no.

 

The Rhino Rush I think has actually been brought BACK by 5th as its easier to get cover saves for your vehicles and now that they come stock with more goodies/upgrade to more goodies theyre harder to kill from weapon destroyed/immobilized results.

 

I've seen Wolves do very well (I'm ranked 1st for our store, with quite a few really good players) and I've seen us do bad (for me it's usually against 'Nilla Marines that just wont die and sit on objectives ;)). We've got a solid 'Dex, it just needs revamping as the others are built better for 5th. Nothing we can't overcome though (so long as the dice don't hate us).

[Max_Dammit]

Hope they bring out a new dex soon after the SW dex, so the army of the day people can move on and the wolf lover stay, than i can sit here and have a other great 10 years of chatting with you lot ;)

[wiplash]

tbh im the only person who i have ever met that collects space wolves, other than GW staff because they have an army of everything even if it only exists in their head as a selling technique!!

having said that i dont go to GW muchand dont enter tournies so...

i do agree with what he has said but we have an advantage over most armies!! we still have an armoury!! which povides us with loop holes a-plenty so we kick some butt with uber strategies

[Ryzouken]

We have 3 Wolfers in our FLGS (including myself) 3! And I've seen at least two more at the other FLGS I frequent. That's five in the Sacramento, California region at least. FIVE!

 

My first game of 5th with the wolves was against another wolf!

 

what are the odds...

 

 

Honestly, the only reason we don't do well is because our players don't regularly break the list in half. We have the potential to field Assault Cannon or Cyclone Missile equipped HQ's for right around 100 points. Add 20 for a Frost Blade and each of those HQ's can also whup on folks in melee if need be. Combine that with either Land Raider spam, Drop Pods, nine Typhoon Missile Speeders, or mass foot infantry and you've a recipe for some brutal lists. We just don't usually do these lists because, for the most part, a Wolf player is still a Wolf player for the fluff.

 

That said, the 9 Typhoon list sounds intriguing... :lol:

[WolfGeezer]

No one I've ever played would put us 12th, sure we're not top and not sure I'd want to be, how much less fun would you have if you knew you could win without good tactics.

 

I think we are around average and most of our lists do benefit from experience, if you don't plan how your packs are going to support each other we are worse than average, but get a solid list deployed right and there is nothing I fear.

 

Clear up the rules for my equiment, cheaper characters & LFs, ultra grit GHs, LRE from the new IG dex and we are good to tear anyone a new one.

[Skoll Mooneater]

We just don't usually do these lists because, for the most part, a Wolf player is still a Wolf player for the fluff.

 

Big truth. A few of my friends insisted that i should try playing my SW with the vanilla marines rules...I said i'd rather make a new space marine army than do that to my wolves...(I actually did that, but that's another story )

[kanaellars]

His assessment was fair.

 

A few of our rules have been hurt by new releases.

 

Our codex is off the shelves, thus limiting new recruits.

 

There arnt many of us around (in most areas at least)

 

We are a very old codex.

 

Because of that I can see being ranked as low as we were.

 

Doesnt mean we arnt still the most kick a** army out there!!!

 

And jusr wait till our new book hits.

 

Then we'll see.

[JEFF4i]

No freakin way I'd play my Wolves off of C:SM, even if they phased us out...I don't know that I could do it. It would feel fundamentally un-Wolfy.

[Grey Mage]

I like wolves, they work well for me. I find them competitive against any army out there.

 

That being said Im happy for this reveiw. If they had rated us obscenely high Id have to deal with a few people picking them up as flavor of the week army #2. I cant stand that.

 

So whatever, the guy doesnt rate me... his mom does. ^_^.

[Vash113]

That being said Im happy for this reveiw. If they had rated us obscenely high Id have to deal with a few people picking them up as flavor of the week army #2. I cant stand that.

 

Oh you can't avoid that forever GM, just wait till the new Dex comes out and all the pups that will be running around... someone better hide the good ale when that happens.

[Brother Hadafix]

That being said Im happy for this reveiw. If they had rated us obscenely high Id have to deal with a few people picking them up as flavor of the week army #2. I cant stand that.

 

Oh you can't avoid that forever GM, just wait till the new Dex comes out and all the pups that will be running around... someone better hide the good ale when that happens.

 

@ Grey Mage: But think of the main cheese he could have made so obvious, an old 'dex that has its own unique stuff and gets to use some of the shiney new toys to! And all those neo.... pups could be running about asking qeustions and having to be Fang trained:lol:

 

@ Vash: Maybe I will get a box of Blood Claws just to get a few jugs in before that happens. :P

[Battle Brother Loken]

i am a new wolf player and i have to say they are fun

our heros are hardcore and i killed 20 bezerkers with 10 blood claws :P

you dont mess with the dread

and i found we can be a armour heavy army that does very good against most armys

 

one army i got ripped apart by though

Necrons

(though i had one wolf guard kill 20 warriors before he went down)

[Grey Mage]

That being said Im happy for this reveiw. If they had rated us obscenely high Id have to deal with a few people picking them up as flavor of the week army #2. I cant stand that.

 

Oh you can't avoid that forever GM, just wait till the new Dex comes out and all the pups that will be running around... someone better hide the good ale when that happens.

 

@ Grey Mage: But think of the main cheese he could have made so obvious, an old 'dex that has its own unique stuff and gets to use some of the shiney new toys to! And all those neo.... pups could be running about asking qeustions and having to be Fang trained:lol:

 

@ Vash: Maybe I will get a box of Blood Claws just to get a few jugs in before that happens. :P

Yeah... so not only do I have to deal with a huge influx of pups... we get a steady stream as it is as Im sure youve noticed, he didnt give up any of my tactics, cool units, or weaponry. Thus Im really really happy I gave him that 20 bucks. ;).

[Wolfside]

he says that he hasn't seen that many wolves matches

if he did he'd see spectacularly modelled models, an army with more flavour than an indian dish and the owning player himself being quite red, robust and portly due to too many ales

i read the same page this morning, and i thought 'who cares'

good players learn to adapt

[JCarter]

My experience is that my Wolves are very sensitive to point level, terrain on table, enemy type and number and type of objectives and win conditions. Players who brag about their won-lost records should provide more of that information; the numbers alone are meaningless. I can usually provide a brutal battle, but often the win conditions are unfulfillable for my Wolves if the opponent tries to hinder me. I play most of my games in 1000- or 1850-point tourneys and can't tailor the army to the opponent. With a mostly H2H army, games requiring me to reduce all enemy units below 50% are not fulfillable against any but a stupid opponent. Games requiring that both enemy objective markers be captured and held are all but impossible and if I also have to hold one of mine, there are simply not enough scoring units on the board to accomplish that. Against armies with land-speeder-type transports, they can simply dance rings around me unless I get the rare "hold both of your own markers" as a scenario. And when there is a take two objectives and hold more table quarters than the opponent, I again run out of troops on the ground. These are a few examples. If other players with great W-L records are not playing in these types of games at these point levels, then they should modify their statements about how competitive the SW codex is. The reviewer, IMO, had it right.

[Ryzouken]

What the Hell kind of missions are you playing?

 

Are you playing 5th Ed?

 

Is there an expanded mission pack I need to eyeball somewhere or something?

 

In the core 3 missions, I'm fairly certain even Space Wolves can provide a challenge (Tau still do at times!)

 

Edit: I guess I'm an oddity... a perfectly sober Wolf. Meh. Still big and boisterous :angry:

[Didacsoy]

My experience is that my Wolves are very sensitive to point level, terrain on table, enemy type and number and type of objectives and win conditions. Players who brag about their won-lost records should provide more of that information; the numbers alone are meaningless. I can usually provide a brutal battle, but often the win conditions are unfulfillable for my Wolves if the opponent tries to hinder me. I play most of my games in 1000- or 1850-point tourneys and can't tailor the army to the opponent. With a mostly H2H army, games requiring me to reduce all enemy units below 50% are not fulfillable against any but a stupid opponent. Games requiring that both enemy objective markers be captured and held are all but impossible and if I also have to hold one of mine, there are simply not enough scoring units on the board to accomplish that. Against armies with land-speeder-type transports, they can simply dance rings around me unless I get the rare "hold both of your own markers" as a scenario. And when there is a take two objectives and hold more table quarters than the opponent, I again run out of troops on the ground. These are a few examples. If other players with great W-L records are not playing in these types of games at these point levels, then they should modify their statements about how competitive the SW codex is. The reviewer, IMO, had it right.

 

I don't know how many scoring units you are deploying, but in smallish games (1000 points) I take at least 3 scoring units (all between 8 to 10 models strong) and in bigger battles I go for 4 or 5 scoring units. I rarely run out of these, normally due to unexpected/tactical mistake/lucky sudden obliteration. Do you just take your two compulsory troops slots?