Prathios Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 So I was playing against a Tau player last night and the question of how directing attacks against an IQ in melee works and I pointed out that the retinue is considered one unit for the battle. Which of course means you can't target the IQ model specifically. Well essentially he ran back to his codex and said his Ethereal gets that same rule then because he can take a command squad. Now I didn't wanna argue at the time but is anyone here familiar with the Tau rules on that or does anyone know how many units in the game have a similar rule in CC like an IQ with his retinue? On a slightly off topic note the game was very strange. The Orbital Melta Strike I purchased ended up going wide 24-23 inches in the same direction two turns back to back and killed both my Chimera transport and my Immolator. (my WH friend was sharing a list with me so it worked out fine, we built a legal list using 750 points from each dex.) But my opponents HQ deepstruck and landed on one of my dreadnoughts... he rolled a 1 on the table. :) The second unit of Tau he deepstruck landed too close to my second dreadnought who was a plasma CC... the three of them got to enjoy some Str 10 CC attacks. Needless to say he instagibbed their squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 The Ethereal can indeed purchase an honour guard (essentially Fire Warriors with a slightly better BS) and join that unit. However, the honor guard is not a retinue or bodyguard. The Ethereal maintains his IC status all the time. It could be that your opponent was confusing the Ethereal's rules with those for the Commander. The rules verbiage for this guy is a little wonky, but it states that he counts as an IC "unless" he is accompanied by a bodyguard. The implication is that if he does have a bodyguard, he does not count as an IC. The BRB's notes about retinues actually happens to mention "bodyguards" as a possible example of where an IC wouldn't count as an IC in close combats. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 why is the honor gaurd not a body gaurd? That seems a tad strange. And if they aren't then what on the Tau list could be considered a body guard? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Delias Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 the only thing that would be able to have a bodygurad in the tau list is a Shas'O commander, which is two other crisis suits. the unit that the ethereal joins is not a a conjoined unit, but another unit that the ehereal can join. This unit is sub-par as a command unit anyways, so i don't particularly see why he would take this in place of the much more reliable Shas'O. As for other units in 40K that get this, I know that the Hive tyrant/tyrant guard get this same advantage, as I have seen so far, orks do not gain this effect, and as for the Eldar strains, as well as necrons, I'm not completely sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 why is the honor gaurd not a body gaurd? That seems a tad strange. And if they aren't then what on the Tau list could be considered a body guard? [shrug] No idea. 'Course, as a Tau player myself, I think that the Ethereal is both a terrible unit to run with, rules-wise, and a very unfluffy choice. Why would Ethereals ever commit themselves to the battlefield when their role is so clearly spelled out as the high-level commander? That's neither here nor there. For whatever reason, the Ethereal honour guard rules don't mitigate the Ethereal's IC status, while a Commander's bodyguard unit does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I would have to disagree with you, Number 6 and Brother Delias, based on the wording in the Tau FAQ. It reads, I quote, on page 1: Q. Can you please clarify the rules for independent characters and Bodyguard/HonourGuard for Tau characters, especially if they also select drones as part of their wargear. For example, do Tau characters with a retinue always count as independent characters for the purposes of close combat, or do they not? A. When selecting your army, if you buy a Tau character without a Bodyguard, he (and his drones) may join/leave units as a normal independent character. In combat, the character (and his drones) count as a separate unit. If, when selecting your army, you buy a Bodyguard for a Tau character, the Bodyguard and the character (and his drones) must be fielded as a unit, as described for Retinues on page 48 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. In this case, the character (and his drones) cannot leave the Bodyguard unit. The character (and his drones) are members of the unit in all respects. Only if the entire Bodyguard is destroyed, the character returns to being an independent character, as described above. The same is true for Ethereals and their Honour Guard. So the Tau characters work exactly as per the Inquisitor with Retinue, they cannot be targetted in Close Combat joined to a bodyguard/honor guard squad. The wording of this FAQ is abudantly clear to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulgrim Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Oh, tricky one - since GW stated FAQ as soft evidence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 However, the honor guard is not a retinue or bodyguard. The Ethereal maintains his IC status all the time. I'm going to disagree there, number6. The wording in my copy of Codex: Tau Empire reads: "Independent Character: Unless accompanied by an Honour Guard, the Ethereal is an independent character and follows the Independent Character special rules in the Warhammer 40,00 rulebook." - C:TE, p33 Now, looking at the GK/Inq. Lord wording in Codex: Daemonhunters: "Unless accompanied by his retinue (see below) the Inquisitor Lord is an independent character and follows all of the rules for characters in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." - C:DH The GK Hero's wording is exactly the same as the Inquisitor Lord's. Now, to me that seems as if they should be interpreted in the same way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 why is the honor gaurd not a body gaurd? That seems a tad strange. And if they aren't then what on the Tau list could be considered a body guard? [shrug] No idea. 'Course, as a Tau player myself, I think that the Ethereal is both a terrible unit to run with, rules-wise, and a very unfluffy choice. Why would Ethereals ever commit themselves to the battlefield when their role is so clearly spelled out as the high-level commander? That's neither here nor there. For whatever reason, the Ethereal honour guard rules don't mitigate the Ethereal's IC status, while a Commander's bodyguard unit does. Am I missing something? In 5th edition.. IC status or not.. a character (or other model) can be singled out in combat and picked on if ANY part of his stat line or weapon is different than the others. So it really doesn't matter any more unless they have the EXACT statline/weapons. Right? -Dragons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Am I missing something? In 5th edition.. IC status or not.. a character (or other model) can be singled out in combat and picked on if ANY part of his stat line or weapon is different than the others. So it really doesn't matter any more unless they have the EXACT statline/weapons. Right? Right. Except Codex supersedes Rulebook. Otherwise there would be no point having Characters with Special Rules, as the Rulebook would overrule them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Am I missing something? In 5th edition.. IC status or not.. a character (or other model) can be singled out in combat and picked on if ANY part of his stat line or weapon is different than the others. So it really doesn't matter any more unless they have the EXACT statline/weapons. Right? Right. Except Codex supersedes Rulebook. Otherwise there would be no point having Characters with Special Rules, as the Rulebook would overrule them. Waitaminute.... I understand Codex > Rulebook.. I'm going to have to look at my codex when I get home! I seem to remember that the distinction was important ONLY because in 3&4 Ed. IC's COULD be picked out but other models could NOT (Hidden Powerfists for example). I don't remember our Codex saying 'can't be picked out'. There are NO Hidden special weapons in 5th ed. and the models carying them CAN be picked out in hth combat. I'll check when I get home.. but I think that it is immaterial as I don't think our Codex says 'can't'. -Dragons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 IC's without the RETINUE rule can be picked out. The difference is the Retinue rule in the main rulebook, which essentially turns those IC's who are subject to it to glorified sergeants so long as their bodyguard/retinue/honor guard is alive. It's a very important distinction that you have to be on the ball about, otherwise people don't know about it. It's saved my Inquisitor Lord more times than I can remember. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I'm going to disagree there, number6. The wording in my copy of Codex: Tau Empire reads: "Independent Character: Unless accompanied by an Honour Guard, the Ethereal is an independent character and follows the Independent Character special rules in the Warhammer 40,00 rulebook." - C:TE, p33 I stand firmly corrected. :lol: I did not catch that text in my skim-through of the Ethereal rules. Gracias! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 On a slightly off topic note the game was very strange. The Orbital Melta Strike I purchased ended up going wide 24-23 inches in the same direction two turns back to back and killed both my Chimera transport and my Immolator. Am I the only person who saw this? Or who noticed how impossible it is? Orbital Strikes can only scatter up to 12", just like anything else. The old verbiage in our codex hails back to when things only scatter 1D6", so doubling made it up to 12". It has since been FAQ'd and now works just like a regular barrage weapon that is out of line-of-sight from the firer (so, 2D6"). It also can hit now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 Wait really???? How did I miss that FAQ? so now it can only go 12 wide rather than 24 and it can get a direct hit? Hmm that would change things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Wait really???? How did I miss that FAQ? so now it can only go 12 wide rather than 24 and it can get a direct hit? Hmm that would change things. In point of fact, it could never go more than 12". But yeah, with the new rules it's allowed to hit, and when it does scatter it scatters 2D6" instead of D6" times 2 (subtle difference to do with result distribution). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1927899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 IC's without the RETINUE rule can be picked out. The difference is the Retinue rule in the main rulebook, which essentially turns those IC's who are subject to it to glorified sergeants so long as their bodyguard/retinue/honor guard is alive. It's a very important distinction that you have to be on the ball about, otherwise people don't know about it. It's saved my Inquisitor Lord more times than I can remember. Check the rulebook again.. I checked it last night.. that 'glorified sergeant' .. or the 'regular sergeants' or even regular troopers who just happen to have special weapons.. Can be targeted indevidually in HTH.. Not in SHOOTING (which the IC can be picked out if he's not with his bodyguard/retinue/unit) but in HTH you CAN pick and choose between models with a difference in weapon OR statline. I didn't check the 'retinue' rule last night specifically but I DID read the hth section that dealt with attacking a unit with different types of models in it. I'll be checking the retinue rule tonight just to verify but I don't think a retinue would 'hide' the character in it any better than a squad would protect the heavy weapon trooper or powerfist wielding trooper. There are no 'hidden powerfists' in 5th ed. -Dragons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1928207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 At the risk of making a big mistake again ... I think you've got it wrong, Dragons. Only ICs can be specifically targeted by attacks in close combat. Otherwise, the owning player has the ultimate discretion in where to allocate wounds received, just as in the shooting phase. So if your opponent wants to protect his "hidden powerfist" model, s/he still can to a great extent (depending on how many wounds you actually inflict, of course). That's what makes the retinue rule in the DH codex/Tau Codex/BRB so potent. It effectively turns your all-important IC into just one model among many. It can't be specifically targeted in close combat, and thus can only receive wounds that the owning player decides to allocate to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1928211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Kyrie Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 I thought the rules worked like this: 5 man squad, 4 normal and one powerfist, takes 5 wounds. One must go on each model. Roll one for the powerfist guy, and 4 for the other troopers. Of the saves taken, 4 fail, 3 on the normal guys, and also the powerfist guy's. Thus, all you have left is one normal dude. If you only take 4 wounds, you do not have to allocate one to the powerfist dude. Instead of (as previously): same squad takes 5 wounds. Roll all the saves together. 4 fail, so you put the failed saves on the normal dudes and thus have a powerfist left. No difference here if you only take 4 wounds. (yes, I realize the dice in my example suck, but it helps illustrate my point. ;)) That was my understanding of why you couldn't "hide" a powerfist (or anything) in a normal squad anymore-because you distribute wounds before taking saves, not after. Have I misread something? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1928298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 That was my understanding of why you couldn't "hide" a powerfist (or anything) in a normal squad anymore-because you distribute wounds before taking saves, not after. Have I misread something? No, you've got it exactly right. "Hiding" models isn't as easy as it was before, but your still must inflict a significant number of wounds in order to affect models that the owning player would rather keep around. So it's still possible to "hide" a model to some (lesser than 4th edition) extent. The flip side is that the more complex the squad composition -- the more different kinds of models that exist in the same unit -- the more likely it is that the squad -- in some form -- will continue to survive, even as you pile up wounds. For example, a 5-man unit that takes 10 wounds means that every model must take 2 wounds apiece. Say one of those models is your power-fist sgt. You roll his 2 saves independently of the 8 saves the normal guys will be taking. If you fail both of the sgt's saves, you still only remove the 1 model, effectively "eating" one of your failed armour saves. In previous editions of the game, you'd have to take off another model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1928359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Page 25: Complex Units Page 39: Allocating Wounds Page 48: Independent Characters Joining & Leaving Units Page 49: Independent Characters & Shooting, Independent Characters & Assaults Read them! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1928454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 there is actually a cool sticky on the black templars forum that deals with wound allocation and how to properly allocate the wounds in a group. I think anyone could benefit from reading this nifty tactica. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1928477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 At the risk of making a big mistake again ... I think you've got it wrong, Dragons. Only ICs can be specifically targeted by attacks in close combat. Otherwise, the owning player has the ultimate discretion in where to allocate wounds received, just as in the shooting phase. So if your opponent wants to protect his "hidden powerfist" model, s/he still can to a great extent (depending on how many wounds you actually inflict, of course). That's what makes the retinue rule in the DH codex/Tau Codex/BRB so potent. It effectively turns your all-important IC into just one model among many. It can't be specifically targeted in close combat, and thus can only receive wounds that the owning player decides to allocate to it. lol.. Mia culpa.. I'm going to blame an insane work schedule. I am miss-remembering something and can't quite remember what it was! Upon re-reading the rules I found that the 'picking out and hiding' was not as I was remembering it except for IC's. Not sure what I was thinking/remembering. Oh well! :blink: -Dragons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163934-interesting-question-popped-up/#findComment-1929054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.