Rune Priest WTN or Rune Staff?

[ChainsawDR]

Hi all,

 

I posted a thread in the army section with this question but thought I'd have a better chance of getting some good advice if I posted it here.

 

I'm returning to 40k and the wolves after a 15 year absence, and I've been buying, building and painting up my army - this has given me alot of time to think about my first 1500pt army and after months of changing and tearing up army lists, I've finally made one that I feel comfortable with and feel I could do well with. BTW I don't have a clue who I'll be playing against, I'm just gonna turn up on games night at my local GW store and see how it gets on. It's kindof like a tourney list - I'm sure I'll change it and make new lists for certain enemies, but for now I just want an "all rounder" to go to my first games night with.

 

The list is below, but I am undecided on whether to get a Wolf Tooth Necklace for the Rune Priest (so he always hits on 3+) or get him a rune staff. He already has a WS of 5 so I would have thought that for most targets he'd be hitting on a 3+ anyway, so would it be better to get the rune staff incase I come up against psykers? Or keep the WTN for hitting my enemies best/toughest unit with the BC's?

 

Here's the list...

 

HQ

Rune Priest with BoltP, FrostB, MeltaB, WTN - 116pts (with BC's in LR)

Venerable Dreadnought with TLLC, Storm Bolter & DCCW - 175pts (with footslogging GH's)

 

ELITES

4x Wolf Scouts with Meltagun, MB's, 3 BoltP, 3 CCW - 82pts (OBEL)

 

TROOPS

11x Bloodclaws with 2 PW, 1 PF, 11 BoltP, 8 CCW - 182pts (attack from LR under Storm Caller)

10x Grey Hunters with 1 PF, 1 PlasmaP, 1 Meltagun, 8 BoltG, 8 CCW & Rhino - 248pts (Utility/fire support for BC's)

8x Grey Hunters with 1 PF, 1 Meltagun, 1 PlasmaP, 6 BoltG, 7 CCW - 177pts (Supporting Ven Dred so not swamped/maybe hold an objective)

 

FAST

1x Land Speeder with Heavy Flamer and MultiMelta - 70pts (First Anti-Tank, then Anti-Infantry)

1x Land Speeder with Heavy Flamer and MultiMelta - 70pts (Seperate Unit to enable split fire - First Anti-Tank, then Anti-Infantry)

 

HEAVY

1x Land Raider with TLHB, 2 TL Lascannon, MultiMelta, Smoke Launchers, PoMS - 260pts (To get BC's into CC quickly & fire using PoMS)

1x Predator with AutoCannon & 2 Lascannons - 120pts (Long Range Support)

 

Total - 1500pts

 

Any feedback on both the WTN vs Rune Staff question, or on the list itself would be most welcome.

 

Thanks all.

 

ChainsawDR

[deedark]

Rune Priest is vunerable to instant death once in combat, anything you need to hit with a WTN is going to hurt you unless you have a Storm Shield

maybe use a Wolf Priest for his cheap 4+ inv save.

 

Vdread if he's with GH then I'd go with Assault Cannon and flamer

 

Scouts I like mine to carry 2 x Plasma pistols instead of MBs, I like to blow stuff up I'm not standing next to.

 

Claws I'd rather have more fists than PWs, but said that claws assaulting from a L/raider is a thing of beauty

 

Hunters - I go much the same way except if points allow I like to put a WGPL in and give him the fist - his base 2 attacks and extra leadership have often saved the day. If they are holding objectives I go Plasma Gun over Melta Gun

 

Fast attack I'm having success with Attack bikes 2MM and 1 HB good against tanks and with twin linked bolters plenty shots v infantry and the're tough.

I have found speeders with flamers get shot down - especially versus rapid fire weapons - I love speeders and when I run them I mirror the attack bikes with a mix of MM and HB

 

I always included OBEL scouts, sneek up from behind and blow stuff up and die with honour, but I find them at odds with the inclusion of attack bikes and speeders who do much the same job as I wanted my scouts to do usually from turn 2 onwards up both flanks, nothing contests an objective late in the game like a turbo boosting speeder

 

If I put lascannon on a pred it goes on the turret first

 

Hope this helps - not criticism just how I run my force, It's damn hard doing a 1 list fights all, good luck, I look forward to your tales of victory

[Grey Mage]

Id actually throw down for a completely different vote- chooser of the slain. 4+ to negate infiltrate? Wich is 50% or more of the outflankers aswell? Yes please!

 

Ive found its a lifesaver against chaos and IG, and helps a bit against most eldar opponents regular or smokey flavor. Marines of all colors are bringing more scouts these days than ever before too.

[ChainsawDR]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

Id actually throw down for a completely different vote- chooser of the slain. 4+ to negate infiltrate? Wich is 50% or more of the outflankers aswell? Yes please!

 

Ive found its a lifesaver against chaos and IG, and helps a bit against most eldar opponents regular or smokey flavor. Marines of all colors are bringing more scouts these days than ever before too.

 

Thanks, I like your thinking and see your point. I'm looking to spend my points where there's the highest probability of using them - which is why I was doubting the WTN (as I might be hitting on 3+ anyway) and the rune staff - do you think it is more likely that I'll come up against more scouts/infiltrators than psykers?

 

Rune Priest is vunerable to instant death once in combat, anything you need to hit with a WTN is going to hurt you unless you have a Storm Shield

maybe use a Wolf Priest for his cheap 4+ inv save.

 

I'm of the philosophy that if you hit first and hard, theres less that can come back and hit you in turn. I'm definately gonna stick with the Rune Priest so that I can use Stormcaller with the BC's...

 

Claws I'd rather have more fists than PWs, but said that claws assaulting from a L/raider is a thing of beauty

 

... which also explains why I've gone for the PW's - so that I can attack first - hopefully being able to strike first will mean that I can avoid the instant death and kill them first. Any turn that I think the pack might get charged, I'm using the Stormcaller.

 

Vdread if he's with GH then I'd go with Assault Cannon and flamer

 

I was intending on using the TLLC to advance towards the enemy whilst providing Long Range fire, that way I've got three seperate units firing 5 Lascannon shots (two twin linked) that can all do damage from a distance, and hopefully draw fire away from the packs - I'm hoping HtH will win the day.

 

Scouts I like mine to carry 2 x Plasma pistols instead of MBs, I like to blow stuff up I'm not standing next to.

 

I really see your point here, but I'd like other opinions on this - I've kept the pack small, so that they can do the job of taking out the enemy's meanest tank - but I don't trust the single shot of the meltagun, if it misses or doesn't do any damage, then they'll probably be dead and wasted without meltabombs - hopefully they won't even need to use the meltabombs and the meltagun will do the job first time but if it doesn't, then the meltabombs at least give them a second chance. I did originally have the plasma pistol setup, but I could foresee myself in the game, rolling dice to hit and then missing, then knowing they'll now be toast - so I changed over to the MB's.

 

If the enemy doesn't have tanks, then I'll regret this decision - but I'm betting that in most games I'm more likely to come up against tanks than not.

 

Hunters - I go much the same way except if points allow I like to put a WGPL in and give him the fist - his base 2 attacks and extra leadership have often saved the day. If they are holding objectives I go Plasma Gun over Melta Gun

 

I did have a WGPL in there originally, but had to sacrifice for points. I felt that the meltagun was more duel purpose that the plasmagun - although it loses on distance/rapid fire, it gives me another Instant Death/AT option if it's needed.

 

Fast attack I'm having success with Attack bikes 2MM and 1 HB good against tanks and with twin linked bolters plenty shots v infantry and the're tough.

I have found speeders with flamers get shot down - especially versus rapid fire weapons - I love speeders and when I run them I mirror the attack bikes with a mix of MM and HB

 

I found this really interesting, and I've actually bought two attack bikes as well as the two Landspeeders - because I wasn't sure which would be better. Please tell me if I'm wrong, but I thought that Land Speeders would be better at coping with infantry than Attack Bikes? As I'm hoping everything else draws all of the enemy's heavy fire away from them, and then once all of the enemy tanks etc have gone, these guys could cope better against regular bolter fire (rapid fire or not) than an attack bike would.

 

Here's my question - once all enemy heavy weapons have been destroyed, which will survive better against "regular" weapons fire - a Landspeeder or an Attack Bike?

 

If Attack bikes are better then I can get 2 MM and a HB for the price of my current Land speeders.

 

If I put lascannon on a pred it goes on the turret first

 

Again, please tell me if my thinking is wrong here, but with a TLLC you get two attempts at hitting a target. If the first roll to hit succeeds, then the second roll is never made. With 2 LC's, you also have 2 rolls to hit, but if you hit with the first you still get an attempt to hit with the 2nd as well - giving you more of a chance of causing more damage. So surely it is better to have 2 LC's rather than 1 Twin Linked LC, and being able to roll twice on the damage table? Yes there's a points cost, but I'd rather hold still and get to fire the autocannon (for as long as it lasts) rather than having to move to use the Heavy Bolters.

 

Sincerely, thanks for your feedback guys - if I come across as being funny at all then I really don't mean to, and if anything I've said doesn't make sense then please bring me up on it, I'll never learn otherwise!

 

Thanks again! Ales are in the corner!

 

ChainsawDR

[Grey Mage]

With a 36" range you shouldnt have to move to use those heavy bolters in most games....

 

As for the TLLC vs the sponsons... well yes you get two shots with the sponson lascannons, but alot of people find them harder to hit with.

[whitewolfmxc]

actually i have a question , can a Rune staff also be a Rune weapon (after paying extra points) ? Is Rune weapon an upgrade or a weapon ? (so can i say my thunder hammer is also a Rune weapon ?

[Grey Mage]

No, a rune weapon is a weapon in its own right. A runic staff takes a weapon "slot" but is not in fact a weapon at all and so cant be used as one. They are used as a force weapon and psychic hood respectively, exactly as detailed in our armory.

[deedark]

Sincerely, thanks for your feedback guys - if I come across as being funny at all then I really don't mean to, and if anything I've said doesn't make sense then please bring me up on it, I'll never learn otherwise!

 

man this is what the forums for, I've found it invaluable so will you.

 

Scouts: my load out is 1MG 2PP/CCW 2BP/CWW - 5 models that pop tanks - prefer this to meltabombs - I add a pack leader with fist points allowing

 

As for Attack Bikes v Speeder - havent made up my mind, I now either run Scouts+Bikes or Speeders, option 2 is Bikes and Speeder leaving my once ever present scouts at home.

 

I think the bikes have the edge on survivability and run cheaper, can assault and in theory you could attach a WGPL to them with a Fist, shoot stun or miss, then assault kill, idea perhaps.

 

But then I like the landspeeder model, it isnt slowed by terrain, and can contest objectives very quickly towards the end of a game, range of available weapons is greater.

 

I like to include a Whirlwind in an all-rounder list for 85pts I think it's a good asset especially versus any horde armies

 

Anyway good luck and let us hear about your battles

[Wolfside]

give BC all power fists

 

3 all up

 

this is a must

[Bran Scalphunter]

No, a rune weapon is a weapon in its own right. A runic staff takes a weapon "slot" but is not in fact a weapon at all and so cant be used as one. They are used as a force weapon and psychic hood respectively, exactly as detailed in our armory.

 

 

Eh, you're farting dust again old Wolf...

 

Runic Weapons are a specific weapon, namely a Force Weapon with a Space Wolf name.

Runic Staffs are a close combat weapon and psychic hood in one.

 

Someone needs to reread their Codex methinks. :lol:

[whitewolfmxc]

so does that mean i can make the staff a rune weapon ??? if not , what does a rune weapon look like ? is it a axe / sword etc ?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

in theory you can have a rune staff and a rune weapon, but they are different items with different rules. they will act as 2 hand weapons in CC.

 

i personally wouldnt as the rune weapon is 40 points, and only S4. i personally run mine with a rune staff and frost weapon.

 

WLK

[Grey Mage]

No, a rune weapon is a weapon in its own right. A runic staff takes a weapon "slot" but is not in fact a weapon at all and so cant be used as one. They are used as a force weapon and psychic hood respectively, exactly as detailed in our armory.

 

 

Eh, you're farting dust again old Wolf...

 

Runic Weapons are a specific weapon, namely a Force Weapon with a Space Wolf name.

Runic Staffs are a close combat weapon and psychic hood in one.

 

Someone needs to reread their Codex methinks. :D

 

As I said above and you agreed... rune weapon=force weapon, and we both agree that runic staff=psychic hood. and where does it....

 

Ah crap. See I have the older version of C:SW. And there it does not have that lil extra sentence that says it also counts as a one handed close combat weapon. Stupid youngins and there newfangled toys.

[whitewolfmxc]

yes fortunate that my newer version does have that line lol

[ChainsawDR]

As for the TLLC vs the sponsons... well yes you get two shots with the sponson lascannons, but alot of people find them harder to hit with.

 

Do you mind if I ask why it's harder to hit? After all the dice rolls are exactly the same, but having 2 shots means the door is left open to cause another hit - or is it simply a case of LoS from each sponson to the target?

[Bran Scalphunter]

As for the TLLC vs the sponsons... well yes you get two shots with the sponson lascannons, but alot of people find them harder to hit with.

 

Do you mind if I ask why it's harder to hit? After all the dice rolls are exactly the same, but having 2 shots means the door is left open to cause another hit - or is it simply a case of LoS from each sponson to the target?

 

That and the Dice Gods seem to dislike TL weapons for a lot of us. Ah, got a 2 to hit, reroll it! Looky there, a fething 1! :huh:

[OnlyInDeath]

As for the TLLC vs the sponsons... well yes you get two shots with the sponson lascannons, but alot of people find them harder to hit with.

 

Do you mind if I ask why it's harder to hit? After all the dice rolls are exactly the same, but having 2 shots means the door is left open to cause another hit - or is it simply a case of LoS from each sponson to the target?

 

Statistically speaking, it's the same chance to hit with 2 sponsons and 1 TLLC. In fact, a lot of people that I play with just roll 2 dice for the TLLC as opposed to picking up a dice and rolling again, just to save a little bit of time. But if you look at it this way, it might swing your idea towards the turret:

If you move your vehicle up to 6", you get to pick one offensive weapon to choose from. Now you have to nominate ONE of your sponson weapons if you want that to be a LC, and you only have a field of fire along that flank of the tank, and one knocked out sponson means that you have only one option. This gives you your standard 4:6 chance to hit (roughly 66% chance to hit).

You could instead use the TLLC turret, which will give you much improved odds of hitting (chances are you will hit with one shot). Plus your field of fire is anywhere around the tank. The only downside is if this weapon system is knocked out, you are left with no lascannon. Its a gamble, but IMO worth the turret. Plus, once the tanks are down, you have 6 HB shots to mow down infantry with

 

As for the scouts, I play mine as follows: 1xMG, 2xPP + CCW, 2xPW +BP, 1xshotgun, frags for all. I just threw in the shotgun as a bit of a boost on the shooty side of things, as it is now str 4 assault 2, cant go wrong w/ that. I have found this combo to be an all around all-star config as you have the shooty power to pop just about any tank (and with 3 high str shots, you very rarely fail). Also, since we can assault after OBEL, the CC potency here with 2 PW's in the squad means they can tear apart devestators or sniper units with ease. These guys have never, ever let me down and usually earn 3-4x thier points back

[Grey Mage]

As for the TLLC vs the sponsons... well yes you get two shots with the sponson lascannons, but alot of people find them harder to hit with.

 

Do you mind if I ask why it's harder to hit? After all the dice rolls are exactly the same, but having 2 shots means the door is left open to cause another hit - or is it simply a case of LoS from each sponson to the target?

Probability is for people who dont understand math. Sure, Yes two chances of a 3+ should be the same amount, but my experiance biass, also known as empirical evidence shows me that sponsons tend to roll 2s for me when I use lascannons. Ill routinely get 5/6 hits with my heavy bolters though. *Shrugs*.

 

But Ive seen other people who can hit with lascannons all day, and then will roll two dice for their turret and come up double 2s for 5/6 turns. *shrugs*.

[ChainsawDR]

so do you think that the 10pts would be better spent on upgrading the predator to a TLLC and HB's?

[Grey Mage]

In my humble opinion it would. But as you can see, other people have different ideas on the subject.

[ChainsawDR]

ok, responding to feedback here and some more thinking, I've revised the list accordingly...

 

HQ

Rune Priest with BoltP, FrostB - 101pts (with BC's in LR)

Venerable Dreadnought with TLLC, Storm Bolter & DCCW - 175pts (with footslogging GH's)

 

ELITES

4x Wolf Scouts with Meltagun, 2 PP's, 3 CCW - 86pts (OBEL)

 

TROOPS

11x Bloodclaws with 2 PW, 1 PF 11 BoltP, 8 CCW - 182pts (attack from LR under Storm Caller)

10x Grey Hunters with 1 PF, 1 Meltagun, 1 PlasmaP, 8 BoltG, 8 CCW & Rhino - 248pts (Utility/fire support for BC's)

6x Grey Hunters with 1 PF, 1 Plasmagun, 1 PlasmaP, 4 BoltG, 4 CCW & Razorback with TLHB - 183pts (Supporting Ven Dred so not swamped/maybe hold an objective)

 

FAST

1x Attack Bike with MultiMelta - 50pts (First Anti-Tank, then Objective Contester)

 

HEAVY

1x Land Raider with TLHB, 2 TL Lascannon, MultiMelta, Smoke Launchers, PoMS - 260pts (To get BC's into CC quickly & fire using PoMS)

1x Predator with TLLC & 2 HB's - 130pts (Long Range Support)

1x Whirlwind - 85pts (Anti-Horde/Mortar/No LoS First Turn support)

 

Total - 1500pts

 

I've decided to go with the logical advice offered on this post regarding the TLLC/HB mix on the Predator - it does make sense so I chose that over the WTN or Rune Staff.

 

There are now no meltabombs on the scouts, instead 2 PP's to take out devastator squads etc. I've taken off the Land Speeders and gone for one attack bike, and with the points gained I've purchased a Whirlwind for some Anti-Horde/Pinning qualities.

 

After great debate I decided to downgrade the footsloggin 8 GH squad to 6, and purchased a TLHB Razorback and Plasmagun - my thinking being that it really wasn't going to do much before anyway as it was on foot and had no ranged weapons, and if it's an objective holder it needs some ranged fire to whittle down advancing troops - which the TLHB and Plasmagun provides. I also took the Meltabombs off the Rune Priest to keep the PF in the squad incase they need to help out the Ven Dread in HtH.

 

Thanks for all your help and support guys. I've got a few rules that I'm still figuring out but I'm looking forward to my first game back in 2 weeks time.