Vanguard Vets

[Borinar]

How would you equip Vanguard Vets, with and with out Packs.

 

Assume its for a Mech army so they will have a transport if no jumppacks, you may suggest a rhino, razorback, landraider or even a DP.

 

They seem to get expensive fast.

[rockdeity]

Gonna have to go with no packs, pretty much no matter what. It's a shame too, because the models are so lovely. At 10pts per, they are just too expensive once you have added in special weapons for them. You also need to invest in locator beacons so they actually hit the target to make use of their heroic intervention. However, in a land raider with no packs they suddenly make lots of sense. You can give them all special weapons if you like, but even if just power weapons, they are now as expensive as a terminator. Therefore, I recommend taking a full squad of 10, and giving special weapons to 1-6 of them, and using the rest for chaff. Then have them assault out of a land raider. I like to sometimes have one of these in one land raider and a TH/SS assault squad in another. That way, I can direct the terms towards the high toughness/heavy infantry and direct the vanguard toward the light infantry/horde.

 

To sum up.... take 10, give them no more than 6 special weapons (less than 3 is most cost efficient because you want them for breaking horde/light inf) and put them in a land raider so they will definitely get to charge.

 

There is one addendum to this. I haven't tried it, but on paper, vanguard with packs infiltrating with shrike could get first turn assault and might actually be worth the points then. You pretty much have to build your army around this though.

[Borinar]

I like it

 

So the this vs that of it is, with a beacon i could DS LC Assault Term and not assault but get Rerolls. Where with Heroic Int. i could assault (potentially with) 10 power weapons for the same points?

 

On the same note out of a Land Raider i can assault with 10 where Term i can only do 6-8.

 

I suppose Pedro would benefit them (i am not at a point where i want to build a force based around shrike) the most with his aura.

 

Thanks!

 

B

[Ryjak]

I think Warp Angel has the best advice for equiping Vanguard. If you get them to 40 points per model, you should probably just take Terminators of some kind.

[Brother Nodd]

Hey..I run 10 Vanguard vets(5 power weapons) with Khan and a Chappy..Nothing and I mean Nothing can take this unit on the charge.

 

Yes they are expensive..but worth it in my book..I run them from a LandRaider Redeemer.

 

Sometimes I drop the Chappy and run them with a Librarian..tis nasty goodness anyway you slice it.

 

Plus depending on the mission..you can combat squad them for helping take objective's elsewhere.

 

Close Combat Termies run you 240 points..squad above is 300..for that you get a thunderhammer and 4 power weapons plus 4 more wounds not too menton the bolt pistols.

 

Just something to think about.

[Sigismund's Ghost]

I think vanguard are overpriced even without the packs. I don't deny that running out of a landraider they will crush most anything they hit. That is the problem. After they win the CC you have a group of very expensive 3+ save marines getting shot up while they wait to get back on the bus. The Terminators at least have the 2+ 5++ (or 3++) so they will be more resilient to shooting. I am very dissapointed with the points cost, as the models are beautiful.

[Koremu]

Without packs, in a Drop Pod.

 

Relic Blade, Thunder Hammer, Power Fist, Lightning Claw, 3 Storm Shields, 3 Vanilla. Just the right mix of threat, defense and ablative wounds.

 

Hot Drop right on top of the enemy, dive for cover on the first turn, but remain in threat range, and watch your enemy go berserk trying to kill them.

 

Most of the time they will survive, and if they do die they take a lot of firepower.

 

Meanwhile the rest of your Drop Podded Army gets a free pass on the enemy first turn, which enables them to get set up and make organised assaults.

 

Treat your Vanguard as Dead Men Walking from the moment they hit the table. The enemy is always going to focus on one target - the job of the Vanguard is to be that target, to be the threat the enemy has to deal with now, taking initiative away from your opponent. Make it as hard to gun them down as possible whilst being a threat on turn one, and then throw them into the forefront of the assault.

 

They will go down, but they go down real, real hard.

[Brother Nodd]

Yes they can get left out to dry in the wind..a hazard with any unit..with Khan they have the chance to get back into cover (behind the Redeemer)granted this doesn't happen too much as they usually kill everything they hit.

 

Plus they can do what Termies can't..run down a broken enemy.

 

I agree though..they're a huge target..but that makes lane's for the other units.

[rockdeity]

yeah, but TH/SS termies do the same job for less cost and actually have a chance of surviving.

 

I think their are 5 basic assault choice types in the SM army:

 

- assault terminators

- vanguard vets

- honor guard

- assault marines

- command squad

 

Which you choose depends on the target and the rest of your army...

 

- assault terminators are the overall best in the most situations. They can kill anything, are optimal against most things, and extremely survivable. All that for only 40 pts per, making them also cost-efficient. The ideal target is a low model count squad with high tougness and a poor or no invuln save (monsters, nobs, heavy inf, etc.). Their weakness is being attacked with lots of dice, but not any moreso than of the other units I mentioned.

 

- honor guard are your cheapest way to get power weapons. For 35 poitns you get a 2+ save and power weapons, and the chaos trick of extra hth attacks AND a bolter. These guys are what you want if you need to cut through heavy inf at a high initiative. They have a smaller niche imo than assaults or terminators, and fewer optimal targets among the 40k armies. Like many assaults units, they are a victim of their own success because they will wipe whatever they hit and get shotup, but against small arms, their 2+ save makes them more survivable than the other groups asside from assault terms. One big plus is they don't require force org, so become more attractive if you are going for a heavy elite build and need the slots.

 

- vanguard are optimal when given few upgrades and therefore against a horde type unit. You are basically paying 4 pts per model for another attack though. I think against a horde out of a land raider these guys make a lot of sense because codex marines can't have more than 10-12 guys charging out of a land raider so this is really the only way to get 40+ dice on the charge, which is really nice against something like orks.

 

- assault marines, I believe, are the second most cost-efficient after TH/SS. These guys can either use their cheap jumppacks or get in a land raider and give their rhino to someone else. Great way to get 30+ dice on the charge, which is usually plenty. You usually want to make sure you win combat but stay locked until your next turn after all. Ideal target is light infantry.

 

- command squad. The FnP from the apoth gives these guys a bit of resiliance. That makes them an effective wound soaking device for the captain, but putting power weapons on them isn't cost efficient. Two at most, I would say. Points are better spent on the captain himself.

 

I'm not counting allies here, but I also use grey knights a lot, and find them to be a decent substitute for vanguard. They fill the same role for the most part (anti-horde/light inf) but only have 2 attacks ever (except for the justicar). The upsides though, are numerous, WS5 S6 (giving the justicar a relic blade, basically), storm bolters, shroud, and are troops so score!

 

Overall I think if you take only one thing and you don't know what the enemy is take TH/SS termies. If you know what they are, take the unit best suited to them, keeping in mind what you can deliver in them (honor guard in a rhino are toast, but in a land raider, are wicked). Follow the same rule as you add squads. So, if you have two assault elements, base them on enemy if known and otherwise make them complementary to your army and to each other (e.g. assaults can be good for tying things up and adding bodies to a TH/SS charge). Finally if you are really on the cheap, consider a captain + command squad. If your assault element doesn't have packs, try to put it in a land raider, otherwise pods or rhino depending on the rest of your list.

[Borinar]

Thats one heck of an end all statement ;)

 

Thankyou for all the input i was torn between TH/SS and something offensive in power/artificer armor.

 

I suppose i will not be converting that assault unit to VGV's, heh.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

- vanguard are optimal when given few upgrades and therefore against a horde type unit. You are basically paying 10 pts per model for another attack though, so it's hard to see where these excel over assaults or honor guard. I think against a horde out of a land raider these guys make a lot of sense because codex marines can't have more than 10-12 guys charging out of a land raider so this is really the only way to get 40+ dice on the charge, which is really nice against something like orks.

 

 

4 points... A Marine is 16, Vanguard is 20. I agree with everything else, except maybe your assessment of Assault Marines. I actually think they are better than Assault Termies. Yes, I know Assault Termies are more capable, but Assault Marines have jump packs, and are much cheaper, and thus can get where they need to be faster, have a higher chance of being ignored, and aren't as much of a loss as Assault Termies when they die.

[rockdeity]

you're right, my bad. Where did I get 10 from? I think that's how much term honors was in 4th ed. codex :D

[Olesh]

- assault marines, I believe, are the second most cost-efficient after TH/SS. These guys can either use their cheap jumppacks or get in a land raider and give their rhino to someone else.

 

Just a bit of a nitpick here - dedicated transports cannot be "given away". Either you start the transport with the squad that bought it inside it, or you start the transport empty. Other squads, I believe, can enter it later, but for deployment purposes, dedicated transports are dedicated exclusively to the squad that bought them.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

- assault marines, I believe, are the second most cost-efficient after TH/SS. These guys can either use their cheap jumppacks or get in a land raider and give their rhino to someone else.

 

Just a bit of a nitpick here - dedicated transports cannot be "given away". Either you start the transport with the squad that bought it inside it, or you start the transport empty. Other squads, I believe, can enter it later, but for deployment purposes, dedicated transports are dedicated exclusively to the squad that bought them.

 

 

He didn't say that others could start inside it. :rolleyes:

[Olesh]

He didn't say that others could start inside it. :rolleyes:

 

Much like the issue with combat squads and reserves (i.e., mutually exclusive concepts except where a drop pod is concerned), I see the mistake made often enough that it's worth pointing it out for the sake of clarity alone; not necessarily for the benefit of the poster I originally replied to, but for others here.

 

Besides, there's not a whole lot of point in shuffling squads to load up in someone else's dedicated transport first turn. If the other squad needs a rhino they can probably buy it themselves for the same price regardless. If you're going to use a transport for that purpose, you're going to be loading up mid-game to rush an objective before the game ends, or you're going to be starting inside the transport and using it to protect your more fragile troops while they move forward.

[rockdeity]

that's a valid point for sure. It's a bit of a pain to have to start off outside the land raider and jump in if you don't have first turn. If you get initiative, it's a non-issue, but they might get fired on if you have to go 2nd.

 

Don't underestimate the value of the "extra" rhino, though. Anyone who has played for or against a marine force that used rhinos can tell you how useful these things are. Even an empty rhino is a fountain of possibilities.

[Henshini]

I use a squad of 10 vanguard in a rhino with a RB, a PF and 2x PW. I used to use a chappy with them, but found that it was more worth while moving him to my assault squad. I love the vanguard. Though if the command squad wasn't stuck at 5 models, I'd probably use it instead.

[War Angel]

Even an empty rhino is a fountain of possibilities.

 

there was a post some where in appoc where the disscussion of how razorbacks are the cheapest heavy bolter in the game... and in a 4,000 point appoc game, you can have near 100 razorbacks, with 400 heavy bolter shots...but if you cut it down to fewer razorbacks... now there could be some marines hiddin in there....

[gil galed]

i for one just use the models and run them as regular assault squads (having stuck a bolt pistol the the leg of the relic blade guy)

[Warp Angel]

Hey..I run 10 Vanguard vets(5 power weapons) with Khan and a Chappy..Nothing and I mean Nothing can take this unit on the charge.

 

Yes they are expensive..but worth it in my book..I run them from a LandRaider Redeemer.

 

Sometimes I drop the Chappy and run them with a Librarian..tis nasty goodness anyway you slice it.

 

Plus depending on the mission..you can combat squad them for helping take objective's elsewhere.

 

Close Combat Termies run you 240 points..squad above is 300..for that you get a thunderhammer and 4 power weapons plus 4 more wounds not too menton the bolt pistols.

 

Just something to think about.

 

It's still less than 40 points for each non-charater model... so you're still doing fine on the "40 point per model" guidelines. I actually like Vanguard - in theory - when deploying them from a vehicle they can assault out of. I just find that TH/SS Termies give me better anti-tank and anti-MC capability at the equivalent points cost. And given the weakness of my rest of the army against MCs, it's not really a tough decision for me to go with the Termies.

[solid snake drive]

What I would I would do is this:

 

Take Shrike as your HQ and attach him with a vanguard squad and keep them in reserve. Take drop pods and/or rhinos with teleport homers/locator beacons for troops and combat squad them so the enemy has to split his fire and drop pod assault first turn. Meanwhile, try and Outflank the enemy with the Van-Shrike squad while they struggle to figure out who to kill first, go in for the kill. Deep strike terminators in near the drop pods/teleport homers.

[deadfuse]

Locator beacons don't work for jump-packs. Or drop pods.

[Ryjak]

Sure they will. Here's what it says on page 67 of the 5th Edition Space Marine Codex:

If a unit wishes to arrive on the battlefield via deep strike and shooses to do so within 6" of a model carrying a locator beacon, then it won't scatter.

Main reason I came here is I was messing around, and came up with this 800 point unit combination:

 

HQ

(120) Jump Chaplain with Melta-bombs (Killer)

(160) Jump Captain with Relic Blade and Melta-bombs (Killer)

 

Fast Attack

(235) 10-man Assault Squad, 2x flamers, Sgt w/P-Fist (Cleaner)

(400) 10-man Vanguard Squad with Jumppacks, two Thunder Hammers, two Lightning Claws (Killer)

(120) 2 Multi-melta Landspeeders (Hunter)

 

My basic idea is to use both HQ's with the Assault Squad, and have the Vanguard Deep Strike in... then have the HQ's join the Vanguard when possible. If I can safely use Heroic Intervention, I'll give it a shot; otherwise, just find a good landing site.

[deadfuse]

Ah, my mistake, I was thinking of teleport homer.

[Brother Icipher]

With regard to Vanguard, I think what you have to ask yourself is, "What are they going to do for me that an Assault squad couldn't do?" The way I see it, Vanguard bring two main things to the table:

 

1. Heroic Intervention: Personally, I think this ability is amazing and I'm constantly surprised that people don't like it more. The ability to Deep Strike AND assault on the same turn has incredible utility. Personally, I believe that a small squad of Vanguard doing the Intervention gives you so many options.

 

2. Customisable Weapon Loadout: The ability to tool for the job is useful, but you have to resist the temptation to go nuts with upgrades. As a general rule of thumb, I try to give about 1/3 of them a weapon that ignores armour saves, so the rest are just extra attacks and ablative wounds for the important ones.

 

In order to get the best use out of them, you need to keep their cost down, while still giving them some tools to work with. If you're not exploiting one or both of these abilities, you're probably better off with an Assault Squad.

 

I've never tried it, but I think that a squad of Vanguard out of a Land Raider with a Chaplain attached would be rather fun...