Haakon_Stormbrow Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Hi all ive been a tournament player for a while now, i have a great tournament record, with 3 firsts 5 2nds and a few forths and thirds, but never anything worse. Now my problem is just 1 man, the guy who runs my local club, my W-D-L ratio is 3-22-45 against him, ive only ever come first/second at tournaments either cos he didn't go or i didn't verse him. His armies are just op and my wolves get torn to shreds. Heres what he plays: Army 1: has never been beaten: its a speed freaks army, basically 6 squads of orks with a nob with a claw each few copters, few burner/shooty buggies and usually a repossessed earthshaker. its got so much maneuverability that my only option is to use a firebase tactic and even that only gives me a 25%chance for a draw. Not to mention he loves tank shock, oh and surrounding a vehicle with his squad of buggies and then popping it meaning no escape for those inside the rhino....instant death.....my poor IC's Army 2: Slanesh with 3 squads of demonnetes, i can't stop these, he always spawns these behind my troops and usually my squad is dead cos of their I5 attacking first damn those rends, if i take a cruisader bc ic combo each of his 6 squads have 1-2 str 8 noise guns, on foot and its the spray of that heavy bolter style noise gun and the demonette pincer move. not to mention is chaos lord with termy armor, ridiculously high I and the crazy sword that can count as str 7. his force is just an insane fireline but he has the termies and demonettes to make combatants that get close cry. Army 3 isn't so bad its just a demon hunters army, i usually draw against it, except my 13th co can't beat it for some reason. basically a land raider 3 gk squads a gk termy squad a dreadnaught or 2 and an assassin of some kind...hes the thing i have trouble with usually Now i know i could tailor an anti ork army but heres the problem, we have a mutually respected agreement to only field army lists designed for tournament play, so it has to be balanced, and will usually face all 3 of those armies in a day. So my question is what do i do? *note i havn't played him in 5th ed yet* Heres my army list (4th ed) havn't had the opportunity to play him this year...too much work, but i will soon, and want to be ready. Wolf priest, wp, fg, ss. V. dread xa, hf, tllc (1000-1200pts), ac (1500pts), pc (1750-2000pts) GHx10 pw, mg, dp BCx8 pf, rhino (1000-1500pts only) BCx8 pw, rhino BCx12 pf, 2 pw (1750+) GHx10 pw mg, dp (1200+pts) predator annihilator with full lacannons Vindicator (1200pts+) Whirlwind (1200-1500pts) Landraider cruisader (1750+) Wolf scouts 2pp, mg, wgpl w/ pp, pw (1500+) Wolf Lord tda, wtn, wp, lc(pair) So the lists look like: 1000...............1200................1500.............1850 wp...................wp....................wp.............. WL V.dread.........V.dread............V.dread............wp 10GH............. 10GH................10GH...........v.dread 8BC+rhino....8BC+rhino........8BC+rhino........10GH 8BC+rhino.....8BC+rhino.......8BC+rhino........10GH Pred.................Pred................Vind.........12BC+rhino .......................Whirl...............Whirl.............Pred ............................................10GH.............Vind ..............................................WS..............LRC ...................................................................WS So yeah anyone got any ideas on how to mod the list to get around the armies i have trouble with while still being competitive? Im seriously considering using the 4 GH in dp's and 4 Dreads in dp's list some one posted.... do people think this list could work against a fast army like speed freaks? oh and if i verse speed freaks, could i form a firebase and drop the drop pods with no one inside, to make walls to funnel his vehicles? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164094-tactics-help/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 What point value is that ork army at? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164094-tactics-help/#findComment-1929191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 usually 1850, but there is a 1500 point version without the earthshaker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164094-tactics-help/#findComment-1929209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 ok, 1500 pys, kills mounted orks dead... let mee see. Venerable dreadnaught- Assaultcannon, EA- 160pts. WGBL- TDA, FB, AC, RC, WP, WT- 126pts. WGBG- TDA, RC, AC, PF- 70pts. WGBG- TDA, RC, AC, LC- 70pts. WGBG- TDA, RC, PW, SB, WT- 49pts. WGBG- TDA, RC, PW, SS- 50pts. 10x GH- P.Pistol, P. Gun, P. Fist, 8x Bolters- 215pts. 10x GH- P.Pistol, P. Gun, P. Fist, 8x Bolters- 215pts. 10x GH- Meltagun, 2x P. Weapon- 200pts. Rhino-35pts. 2x Attack bike- 80pts. Predator Annihilator- Heavy Bolters, SB- 145pts. Whirlwind- 85pts 1500pts. Against 6 trucks, one with mega armored nobs, two warbuggies, two units of three deathkoptas, and a unit of fifteen lootas. Loast 13 GHs, the rhino, and the main gun on the predator over five turns. Just pick your targets well... each group with a mobile range of 24" or greater should target a different transport- so we have five such units. With the number of shots they throw out we should have a minimum of five stunned transports, if not a good number of dead ones. Then just keep hitting them until they hit your lines.... and jump to the countercharge and finish them off. For 1850, Throw in 15 bloodclaws with three powerfists and a Wolf Priest with meltabombs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164094-tactics-help/#findComment-1929217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 nice what about the chaos gunline? this army would struggle against it as it will be blown away and then moped up by the termies and demonettes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164094-tactics-help/#findComment-1929250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massaen Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 What about the chaos gunline you ask? He is cheating... simple. You may not have a termie lor with the daemonettes... They are 2 different codex. Also i have no idea what S& weapon you mean at all...sounds to me like he is convieniently using the last chaos codex. The current one gives you generic daemons - not uber daemonettes. Without a very good explanation he is cheating. The daemonhunter list is also not on if he does not use an inquisitor - no assasin without one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164094-tactics-help/#findComment-1929260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 he does use an inquisitor (elite) minimum squad in rhino with pgs and mgs, about 5 strong, as for the chaos this is as said from a year ago, im not sure if i played him after new chaos book came out the sword gave him some king of strength increase but had a disadvantage that he could over load it or something like hat, i think it was a ld test or something like that, and cos he had some kind of sacred number all his units were at +1 I. He had a lord in terminator armor, sometimes it had 4 termies accompanying him sometimes he was alone. I think it had 3 squads of 9 and 3 squads of 6 noise dudes and 3 squads of 6 demonettes or 2 of 9 depending how his list had been done up, it had no vehicles in it, he had some champion guy in each squad. im sorry its not accurate, i don't play chaos so i never know the structure, but it was tournament legal force so i know its legit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164094-tactics-help/#findComment-1929272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massaen Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 definatley old chaos dex... you will be fine with the new dex! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164094-tactics-help/#findComment-1929307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 what about empty drop pods.... can it be done if you need to put down a fire base for a certain mission? in other words can i deploy all/most forces and then drop the drop pods with nothing in to form a wall to funnel my opponent? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164094-tactics-help/#findComment-1929624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 nice what about the chaos gunline? this army would struggle against it as it will be blown away and then moped up by the termies and demonettes No, simply put, it wont. Take out his heavy support as early as possible and then use your GH squads to bolter those daemonettes to death. At T3, even with 5+ invulnerable save theyll go down like chucks mom. Always have for me anyways. Terminators? Same answer... lots of bolter shots, followed up by three plasma shots in each squad... finish them off with the Wolf Gaurd or Dreadnaughts ACs as needed. Tanks? Use the predator to shake the one whos most dangerous to your troops, try go get it blown up, but no shooting means youve done your job. Remember that the attack bikes can hunt the side armor of anything but a landraider.... use that to your advantage as most people will see a light infantry killer here. If he has an infantry based firebase, such as havocs+obliterators then flank with your attack bikes and the rhino unit will trying to maximise the firepower from your footslogging units. Try to keep his attention to the front, and then disembark and hit him over the head a few times. If he has a landraider than just run that rhino strait at the unit of infantry to one side of it like its not even there, then disembark on the landraiders side and try popping it with a meltagun shot, or do a driveby. And remember, assault cannons and penetrate armor 14. 16 Assault cannon shots, 8 at BS 5 no less, will kill a landraider in a single turn more thanhalf the time. That pretty reliable eh? Daemon hunters are much the same as the above... though Id like to know what kind of assassin the guy uses, that can change ones tactics significantly. what about empty drop pods.... can it be done if you need to put down a fire base for a certain mission?in other words can i deploy all/most forces and then drop the drop pods with nothing in to form a wall to funnel my opponent? Yes, you can. No rule states you have to start the game in your dedicated transport. Frankly though I feel that using them as a firebase isnt as good as using them to block LOS and setup the firing lanes I want while blocking the ones he wants. Definitely use the funneling techniques here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164094-tactics-help/#findComment-1929782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 he usually uses the vindicare or the anti psycher assassin, the problem is each uni of noise marines had the equivilant of 2 heavy bolters and 1 krak missile launcher. i dont know if the noise weaponry or squad arrangement has changed but sufice to say i tried to move my lrc with bc and wl across the bored 1 day at a tournament and his 3rd squad glanced and killed mty lannd raider his other 3 squads laid down 9 str5 and 3str8 shots and there went a 3rd of my force, with only my lord left. ;) i like your firebase trick, and im now more comfortable feilding land raiders as i understand they can not be destroyed on glances anymore unless its ap1, also my favorite tactic is the 10gh with melta in a rhino, running up and spraying, or ussing the rhino as a mobile wall at the last gt my opponents were spacewolves...i won, then it was kroot(no tau), omg can i just say yummy, having an enemy with low armor swarming towards me it was like a dream come true, i lost 3 bloodclaws and 2 grey hunters...so win. then i suffered a bad loss, a dark angels fire line backed up by some teleporting grey knights, i wiped out the grey knights by using my bloodclaws, but i lost my vehicles so fast and just couldn't get across the table, it was gay all the terrain was in the deployment zones, with none at all in the middle, then i drew with the hardest army ever.... darkangels all termie force from hel with 2 reads and 2 landraiders...ouch, it was only a draw on a technicality, i was munched. i then versed necrons it was a get your 3 runners to the other side game, i lost 1 runner to 2 with my bloodclaws being eaten by those infiltrating flayed ones, and then i smashed a thousand sons chapter(i have a flawless record against 1k sons), finnally i took on the tournament winner, it was a starcannon army before the latest codex came out so he had 3 death shots a cannon and he had over 30 of them, i was massacred....i was so butchered it got me to start using drop pods. so i know my force works well, i guess the only way to see what works is play the 3 lists, being my original list your list and my drop pod army of 4gh and 2 dread 1 v dread 1 ic dread and see which one works and which one is fragile. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164094-tactics-help/#findComment-1930443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Blasters and blastmasters arent THAT good... I think you should look at the weapon profiles hes using. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164094-tactics-help/#findComment-1930476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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