Need Math-Hammer on Blood Claws

[Marek Grimfang]

Time long debate for BC's.....Flamer or Melta Gun. I know the Flamer may be a no brainer cuz its a point and shoot/template weapon, but I have so many Melta Guns lying around they are begging to be used.

 

With our WS/BS of 3, what is the workable stats on hitting with it and causing damage?

 

Im anticipating the raising of the WS or BS from 3 to 4 come the new book per the rumours.

 

Im also debating using Plasma Pistols in lieu of PW's/PF's.

[Ullr Direfang]

well, if you give examples of what you are facing it would be easier. i have a friend with a crazy spreadsheet, but i kinda need to know what you are facing. one is better against one kind of unit where the other is best vs. a different kind of unit.

 

usually the flamer, being that the unit is looking to fight in cc and not pop tanks or heavy infantry, but like i said, verse big bug/deathwing the melta would be better.

[Skambankt]

I tend to prefer the flamer in my BCs. As stated above, it really comes down to what you play agaist most often, but in general, a flamer is a nifty thing to have in an Assault squad. Put the melta with your GHs.

[Grey Mage]

Well they hit 1/2 so... 50% chance of hit. Then lets say we are at 6" and so get 2d6... whats the armor were hitting?

 

Against 10 its an autoglance, and a 97.3% chance of a penetrating hit. Then with the +1 on the damage table its either a 16.25% chance of a dead tank with the glance OR a 50% chance of atleast one kind of dead tank on a penetrating hit.

 

So.... 50% of 16.25% is 8.125%, and of that after the small chance of a glance we have about 8.11% left. Then theres the 50% chance of hitting factored in.... for a 4.055% chance of killing an AV 10 tank with a bloodclaw at six inches.

 

So... flamer, or nothing IMHO.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

they will stay bs 3 and why because this rumor started because SM scouts had WS4 BS4 but incase you havn't noticed GW reduced the SM scouts to WS3 BS3 to match us, therefore we wont get BS4 blood claws ever

 

as for the %'s

 

50% chance to hit

42% chance to wound anyone below toughness 6

1.4% chance to destroy a tank with armor 14 at over 6"

21.6% chance to destroy a tank with armor 14 under 6" away

 

compare that to BS 4

 

66% chance to hit

 

55% chance to wound anyone below toughness 6

1.9% chance to destroy a tank with armor 14 at over 6"

28.8% chance to destroy a tank with armor 14 under 6" away

 

now if a BS4 costs 10 points then a BS3 should cost 7.5 points to be "cost effective" therefor every BC meltagun in your army is 6.7% less cost effective then your GH version

 

compare this to a flamer on the back armor of a rhino

 

flamer auto hit

meltagun 50% hit

plasmagun 50%x2 =100%*(nothings ever 100%)

 

flamer can not destroy

meltagun has 13.9% chance to destroy@>6" and a 24.43% chance to destroy @<6"

a plasmagun has a 16.6% chance @>12" and a 33% chance to destroy @<12"

 

but against troops blood claws do this damge

a meltagun will kill 1 model 42% of the time or 0.42 models

a flamer will kill an average of 1.3 models in power armor

a plasmagun will kill an average of 1 model

 

for a grey hunter the plasmagun does kills almost the same as the flamer and kills 0.55 models with a meltaun

 

i hope this MATHS helps you

[Vassakov]

With BS3, I would recommend against the Meltagun.

 

However, there is a more pertinant reason for recommending against the Melta. Think about how you want to use your BC's. General concenus seems to be to find a big block of enemy infantry and hurl them at it, hoping that in the region of 70 attacks will carve them into so much fine mist and ichor. Now, a Flamer can augment this by providing soming that can BBQ Hordes and broil MEq's in their armour. A Meltagun will probably miss, and be massive overkill anyway.

 

Now, if you want your 10+ CC troops jogging round the battlefield tank hunting, then I suppose a Combi Melta/Thunder Hammer on the Pack Leader, a Meltagun in the squad and some Power Fists might do the job... but it's a bit of a waste, in my view.

 

Go for the Flamers - save the Meltas for troops that can shoot straight.

[Bearboy]

If you have lots of both make spare BC's! Swap them in and out of the depending if your play orks or an armored company.

[Grey Mage]

Actually throwing a combimelta on a Pack Leader is a wonderful idea most of the time... lets him crack open a transport for the bloodclaws to eat alive.

[Marek Grimfang]

Does anyone forgo the use of BC's and use GH's with BP/CCW's?

 

Im sort of thinking this way, but with 5th Ed. giving eveyone a BP/CCW/Bolter anyway, no doubt this will be what occurs when our 'Dex comes out.

[Yeti]

Does anyone forgo the use of BC's and use GH's with BP/CCW's?

 

While I don't drop the BCs, CC Grey Hunters is standard kit for me in anything over 1500pts. It comes down to quality vs. quantity.

 

The BCs are really good in situations when the quantity of attacks cound. Hordes of relatively easy to kill target or big nasties. Against the hordes, you regular attacks will cause all kinds of kills and give you a big fat modifier at the end of combat. Agaist the big nasties, the quantity of attack will increase your odds of getting a wound through ... and extra power fist attacks are always welcomed.

 

The GHs are the quality. Sure, against most things they'll hit the same as BCs (4+). But when facing off against dangerous opponents that strike with a decent init (termis, chaos marines, eldar, nids), the extra WS means many fewer attacks coming back at you. I use mine to take on elite units and to be perfectly honest, and seriously considering going to power weapons over power fists.

 

As for the oriiginal question ... flamer or nothing, most often, nothing.

 

With regards to 5th ed ... we'll see, but I'd really hate to loose the CC aspect of the Grey Hunters.

[Valerian]

Does anyone forgo the use of BC's and use GH's with BP/CCW's?

 

Sometimes. I play Ragnar's Great Company, and often put him in with a pack of Grey Hunters with BP/CCWs. He grants his Berserk Charge (+2 attacks on the charge) to the unit he's with, so this makes the Hunters act like Blood Claws, but with better WS and BS. Of course, you can't get 15 Grey Hunters in a pack like you can Blood Claws, but the Ragnar + Grey Hunter pack combo works great if your using a Rhino or Drop Pod as your transport, and you couldn't fit all those Blood Claws in anyway.

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[Grey Mage]

Does anyone forgo the use of BC's and use GH's with BP/CCW's?

 

Im sort of thinking this way, but with 5th Ed. giving eveyone a BP/CCW/Bolter anyway, no doubt this will be what occurs when our 'Dex comes out.

 

I do. I have a pack of 10, with a meltagun, 2 powerweapons, and almost always rhinomounted. Works rather well... kills orks pretty good, taken out some terminator squads. Nothing spectacular, but they make their points back reliably.

[Marek Grimfang]

^I think Im going to go with C+C oriented GH's.

 

Something about a Melta Gun in a C+C squad that gives me goose bumps.

[Spacefrisian]

A melta doesn't seem bad, you could pop a transport and then charge in its contents with the same Bloodclaw unit. If the tank gets destroyed by that unit that is.