What is a Great Company?

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Now I know that the size of a Great Company has been discussed many times but the following came to my, often confused mind, the other day.

 

As I understand it, based on the HH series, a pre-reform common or garden Chapter was lead by a Chapter Master and was formed from three SM companies, one under the CM and two each under a Captain.

 

Now this sounds very much like a Great Company to me, lead by a Wolf Lord and formed from retinues under WGBLs, Wolf Priests etc.

 

That would also fit in with the idea of the Chapter as a whole and individual Great Companies being larger than average - in this case about 3,000/300 strong with change respectively.

 

Or maybe I'm wrong :P

[fore_Russ_and_The_Wolftime]

well its my understanding that a great company of the space wolves was an independant entity within the chapter, they have thier own armorie, recruitment system, and other things. as a resilt it was speculated that some chapters are much larger than the average company and may even rival the strength of a regular sm chapter. they are each led by a wolf lord who has his own wolf , rune priests and has his own wolf guard. some wolf lords may be rune priests possibly but this may be wrong. the only difference of any of the companies is that the great wolf's company is the ruling body and the chapters thralls and dreadnaughts and iron priests are under his direct command

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

being in the army my self i can tell you a company is 100 strong on average, so the fact there are 12 companies mean there are 1200 space wolves in the chapter.

 

so 1xWL up to 20xWG a WP RP and IP 5xLF 30xBC 6xWS 40xGH is an average company, how these are equiped is dependant on what mission and equipment the company has so some have bikes etc and some have less wg and gh due to battle losses and higher blood claw counts.

 

some gh may be promoted to lf if they have more heavy weapons etc

 

so to field a company not including weapons it would cost you

75+80+95+500+84+80+680+420+108 working through the codex, this doesn't include tanks or retired wolves called dreads

so a company of wolves is 2122pts+ that gets you 3hq 3 elite 6 troops 1 heavy and a total of 100 marines if you factor in a ccw and bp for all wg and hqs thats 46pts so 2168 so next time you get a 2500pt game see if you can field a company of wolves!

 

so if you gave all hqs a frost blade and all wg a power weapon, all grey hunters a meltagun and the lfs a missile launcher each and maybe a meltagun for the scouts and you could easily fit this force in a 2600pt list

[Long Fang]

Well to start, wolf priests, rune preists, iron preists, venearble dreads, thralls, the fang and the fleet are all under the command of Logan Grimnar (the great wolf) and are not part of any of the great company's. (Space wolf codex, page 33/inside back cover).

 

As for the exact size we can never agree :) My company has 80 Grey hunters never mind anything else so is well above the 100 men mark. Great company to me would imply that it is bigger than a company, but that is my opinion.

 

As for HH series, Horus's legion had at least 5 captains and himself... can't remember all there names atm... But no mention of chapter masters?

 

Long Fang

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Found the names of Horus' main captains "The mornival"

Ezekyle Abaddon

"Little Horus" Aximand

Tarik Torgaddon

Garviel Loken

 

plus at least one other whos name I can't find. (Garviel's mate)

This covers Horus's legion but maybe not all?? Which legion where you referring to Durfast?

[Ullr Direfang]

being in the army my self i can tell you a company is 100 strong on average, so the fact there are 12 companies mean there are 1200 space wolves in the chapter.

 

the space wolf chapter is larger and as long as there are only 100 marines per company, you would be right. but our bloodclaws are our scout company, the ranks of bloodclaws are like the tide, always going up and down regularly. and like long fang said, wp, rp, ip, vendreds, normal dreds, thralls don't belong to individual companies.

 

i am also mush like long fang in that i current;y have 50 bloodclaws (some are sometimes used as grey hunter cc squads), 70 grey hunters, 15 wolf guard, and 18 scouts as basic units.

[dragon950]

Scouts are also under the command of the great wolf.

 

When the innaties officaly become space marines and become blood claws they are led by a sergeant until they are deemed ready to join a company( this could take months or years). They are then put into whatever compnay needs them. So each compnay doesn't have their own recruitment program, they just replinish what loses they took with what is ready.

 

Since our squads dont get new members when they take losses, unless other squads were almost wiped out and the rest were put into other squads, it is impossible to determine how many are space marines are in a company. Plus since we have grey hunters pilot our thunderhawks and drive the tanks or transports they might not be included into the total number of marines in a company. Do other chapters have their marines flying and driving?

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

being in the army my self i can tell you a company is 100 strong on average, so the fact there are 12 companies mean there are 1200 space wolves in the chapter.

 

I was a Tom myself and use of the word "company" does not mean each organisation carrying that title has the same orbat (TO&E).

 

I've commanded an Armoured Infantry Company of 126 plus attached Offensive Support elements, a Light Role Maneouvre Support Company (Anti-Tanks, Mortars, Snipers and Recce) of nearly 180 and a training company of 350.

 

So a Great Company of 300+ sits quite comfortably in there.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

As for HH series, Horus's legion had at least 5 captains and himself... can't remember all there names atm... But no mention of chapter masters?

 

This covers Horus's legion but maybe not all?? Which legion where you referring to Durfast?

 

It appears in later books, including the recent "Tales of Heresy" and "Descent of Angels". It seems to have been a response to the rapid increase in the size of the Legions during the course of the crusade - as I mentioned, a Chapter seems to consist of three companies in each case.

[Quillen]

What a company in real life is nothing compared to a company in 40k. So wash that out now. It's not relivant.

 

Space Wolves are not organized like the Military. Think more in terms of a viking lords host. As he grows in rep more and more packs are draw to him. As he grows in power and captures more ships, he get more recrutes from the Blood claws, like the Ragnar books. Ragnar and pack are asked to join one Wolf Lord and they accept. He could have refused, but they never put that in the book. Instead what's his name offers him a spot. He even wanted to go with another wolf lord I believe. Been so long since I read it.

 

Great Companies grow and dwindel with time. We care nothing for the set size of a campany cause we are not Guillimans lap dogs. We do as we want. The way Russ wanted. Not some self appointed demigod for fools.

 

Some Campanies may be 300+ strong, while others on hard times are less then 60. The thing to remember is they are independant and self governing to a point. Unless the old wolf needs them to do something they can go their own way. And there has been times when Great Companies left the Old Wolf's control completely. Still Loyal to Russ, but they leave the fang and strike out on their own. Some return and some never do (the Sons of Russ).

 

Great Companies have a Wolf Lord and his Rune Priests and Rune Lords. Then an Honour Gaurd of up to 20. Then you have Packs with a leader in the pack (changes in each edition. Sometimes a srgt, and sometimes no one unless a Wolf Gaurd is appointed). Regardless the Geneseed makes the pack pick a leader, a strong wolf of the pack and the others defer to him by instinct (the books cover this well). They start as Blood Claws and then move to Grey Hunters once they master their blood lust. Then they server as a Grey Hunter till they get a bit old, and then move to Long Fang or as a Trainer of Blood Claws. Some are chosen for their actions and deeds to become Wolf Gaurd. Which means they get first picks on gear and are awarded better pieces of Booty. Yet they have to keep the Wolf Lord Safe and lead Packs in battle when called to.

 

Also Packs can shift allegence to another Great Wolf. It's hinted at in the fluff too. They may leave one Lord who seems weak and frail and move to a new lord. Also Entire Companies may be mergered with another if loses are really bad, and a New Company Formed from someone the Great Wolf Picks and they start fresh with a new Icon and Banners and start the prosses all over again.

 

So the Size is not set. It's waxes and wanes with time. The Transport can change. They are known for captured ships and using them for their Great Companies. Some Great Companies use Battle Barges and even Heavy Crusiers for their Capitol ships. A Battle Barge can carry 3 Companies and all it's gear and support personal. So that is atleast 300 fighting men. Then they have techs and armorers to support that.

 

 

And that is the beauty of it. You can make your own great company as you build. At first your little 1000k points is a part of Someone's company. Then as it grows, you Charctor can become the Wolf Gaurd Leader. Then a Wolf Lord. And as you get more and more troops and tanks a Massive Great Company. It's up to you.

 

In my Fluff my Wolf Lord left the fang after a fight with another wolf lord. The Old wolf at the time was too weak to stop the fighting and was growing too old. So my Wolf Lord struck out on his own and has up graded his Ship (using Full Thrust Rules for Space), had adventures on his own with his Wolf Gaurd (used Shadow Run for Role playing. Works way better), and Captured Gear and looted vehichles (with normal 40k games).

Replacements come from his thralls on the ships and from people he fought with and thought they deserved to be brought into the Company. One example was a a game against gaurds men where one lone gaurds man stood his ground and killed a Landraider with a Rocket Launcher. He was meleed buy the Wolf Lord and the Pack he was leading and instead of saying he was killed My Wolf Lord ,impressed with this brave lone boy, took him in as a trainee, and they put him in the Blood Claws. Then as they played games the Gaurds man was watched and when he killed tanks and stuff I took notes. Eventually He will have Long Fang model based off the Gaurdsman. He will be all posed and stuff, showing his rise from a green kid to a Long Fang. SomeTimes he returns to The Fang for more Blood Claws and meets other Wolf Lords who was on his side and they pass Blood Claws over to him.

 

Remember you great Company is yours. Do as you like with it. It's yours and yours alone.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

What a company in real life is nothing compared to a company in 40k. So wash that out now. It's not relivant.

 

Space Wolves are not organized like the Military. Think more in terms of a viking lords host. As he grows in rep more and more packs are draw to him. As he grows in power and captures more ships, he get more recrutes from the Blood claws, like the Ragnar books. Ragnar and pack are asked to join one Wolf Lord and they accept. He could have refused, but they never put that in the book. Instead what's his name offers him a spot. He even wanted to go with another wolf lord I believe. Been so long since I read it.

 

Great Companies grow and dwindel with time. We care nothing for the set size of a campany cause we are not Guillimans lap dogs. We do as we want. The way Russ wanted. Not some self appointed demigod for fools.

 

I understand where you are coming from but would be uncomfortable to support so extreme a view. The SWs are still disciplined space marines rather than some chaotic warband, just not so uptight as some other Chapters. They are clearly a military formation and one designed to fight in an organised and effective way - maybe not Guilliman's way but the Chapter has its way of doing things and it would be a brave or foolhardy Wolf Lord to question the lore of the Wolf Priests or the advise of the Rune Priests.

 

The background you describe seems to be based more on a Conan the Barbarian-like fantasy land than the reality of being a "Viking Lord". Remember the use of viking as a noun rather than a verb is a modern invention that would have confused those tribes that came from what we now call Scandinavia. Modern research indicates a greater degree of societal organisation in the pre-Christian nordic culture than Hollywood has had us believe :(

 

Could Ragner have refused, could a young initiate question the capabilities of a Wolf Lord? Maybe but he might find the next invitation long in coming.

 

Packs shifting allegiance - really, examples please. That sounds dangerously like recanting one's oath and, as such, another Wolf Lord would be very wary of the hopeful newcomers. As to talk of booty - that are they going to do with it, the All Father provides all a wolf needs - ale, meat and combat!

 

Still, as you say, it is each of our trainset :lol:

[Grey Mage]

I think they were given the choice of if they wanted to go with him or not, but they would have had to go somewhere. They could not have just sat around at the fang waiting for the rest of eternity. Ill also note they dont switch out from then on... The Wolf Lord is an elected leader who then has complete authority. You couldnt just walk away from your larger pack, your company because you disagreed with the leader anymore than you could leave your pack just because you didnt like the pack leader.

 

Even vikings... the guy at the top was the guy at the top. Most of the men who sailed under a particular carl or jarl who went out into the world were of his own tribe, and often contained kinsmen of his. You couldnt just take his place when you disagreed with him, and just leaving? Sure... be that last viking in southern france when the raid is gone... lets see how long you last.

 

What your talking about is more like an ork waagh.... growing and shrinking in tune to the exploits of its warboss.

[Valerian]

The background you describe seems to be based more on a Conan the Barbarian-like fantasy land.

 

Durfast,

 

That's because the fluff is based more on a Conan the Barbarian-like fantasy land, its called Fenris, and some guys in England made it all up over 20 years ago. The archetype that they created is a fantasy one, that is intentionally reminiscent of Hollywood-style Vikings.

 

Unfortunately, the good fluff is absent from the 3rd edition pamphlet-like codex. To get the true feel for the Space Wolves you have to dig into the 2nd edition Codex, and of course some of those old Space Wolf novels.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

 

40k since '89

Space Wolves since '92

[Quillen]

Indeed. It was to help draw Fantasy players in. I loved that old Second edition book.

 

You have to think of them as a warrior cult. The Warrior follows whom he thinks is worthy. If the leader is showing signs of weakness they do not follow. Not unlike the way a wolf pack follows the Alpha Wolf. When he is weak and old a new pack leader comes to the fore. Remeber the fluff story of Logan saying he was going to take his Great company out on a campaign? The other Lords bucked and he asked them if any thought he was too weak to lead. They all got quiet cause they new an ass beating was on the way if any of them challenged him. And when he saw them all sitting quiet he relaxed cause he new he was not going to have to show his teeth to make a point.

 

Remeber they are indeed Barbarrians whom have to hold an axe at birth or be drowned. They are organized, but as packs of wolves. And bands based around leaders. Which was why they had more leaders in 3rd edition. These guys are head strong, and brawl all the time. They work good in combat cause they already have a good fighting spirit from their home world and proved they have the will to kill and face being killed already. Then they take them and beat some disciplin into them and implant the gene seed. At the Core they are Barbarrians that want to prove their worth.

 

 

It's in all the fluff. I have tons of it.

 

I played Space Wolves in RT days when they just had Pictures and Leman Russ was an Imperial General. Poof Suddenly he is a Primarch. LOL got to love rolling fluff. No telling what we will be like next go around.

 

Wierd I have played this game for over 20 years now. Oh I am old. lol

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Durfast,

 

That's because the fluff is based more on a Conan the Barbarian-like fantasy land, its called Fenris, and some guys in England made it all up over 20 years ago. The archetype that they created is a fantasy one, that is intentionally reminiscent of Hollywood-style Vikings.

 

Unfortunately, the good fluff is absent from the 3rd edition pamphlet-like codex. To get the true feel for the Space Wolves you have to dig into the 2nd edition Codex, and of course some of those old Space Wolf novels.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

 

40k since '89

Space Wolves since '92

 

Hi Valerian,

 

I've been with them since the 2nd edition myself but a SW little later than yourself as most of my army dates from '96. My first marines were the old plastics, however, from late '87, and all chapter had the same organisation back then. So I can appreciate your view, and have the same sources, I just interpret them somewhat differently - especially as much of the early 40K fluff came out of ancient and early medieval history about which I have passing knowledge and, being based in UK and having gamed the system for a while, know a few of the people involved.

 

edited to say: sorry, laying out a few of my credentials feels awfully gauche but, in this case, I wanted to ensure that you didn't consider me to be questioning your position without due consideration of the background to this hobby.

 

Regards,

 

Durfast

[dragon950]

Wow, what fluff have you been reading. Even though the space wolves aren't the most organized and disciplined fighting force in the galaxy, they are far from what you said. Any company that leaves a chapter because they want to is considered to be traitors. If they are lucky to survive what forces the great wolf sends after them they would never return to the fang or they would be attacked and killed. The only reason that marines would ever leave his compnay is if a problem existed between him and another marine that could lead to fighting and or death. Great Companies have never joined if they took heavy loses, they would just remain at the fang or used for patrol until there numbers were replinshed. Just because you read other people's stories dosen't mean that is the way the wolves operate.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Wow, what fluff have you been reading. Even though the space wolves aren't the most organized and disciplined fighting force in the galaxy, they are far from what you said. Any company that leaves a chapter because they want to is considered to be traitors. If they are lucky to survive what forces the great wolf sends after them they would never return to the fang or they would be attacked and killed. The only reason that marines would ever leave his compnay is if a problem existed between him and another marine that could lead to fighting and or death. Great Companies have never joined if they took heavy loses, they would just remain at the fang or used for patrol until there numbers were replinshed. Just because you read other people's stories dosen't mean that is the way the wolves operate.

 

heya buddy, hate to break the news to you, but we have had wolf lords leave the chapter before due to differences between them and the Great Wolf. they werent traitors, and i am sure some of our rune priests can even provide you with more info and details than i can.

 

I summon Dark Bjorn!

 

WLK

[Dark Bjoern]

Wow, what fluff have you been reading. Even though the space wolves aren't the most organized and disciplined fighting force in the galaxy, they are far from what you said. Any company that leaves a chapter because they want to is considered to be traitors. If they are lucky to survive what forces the great wolf sends after them they would never return to the fang or they would be attacked and killed. The only reason that marines would ever leave his compnay is if a problem existed between him and another marine that could lead to fighting and or death. Great Companies have never joined if they took heavy loses, they would just remain at the fang or used for patrol until there numbers were replinshed. Just because you read other people's stories dosen't mean that is the way the wolves operate.

@Wolf Lord Kieran: I hear your call, Brother.

 

@dragon950: Completely wrong. SW are organized. We had been organized even back in the times of the Great Crusade. Our organization differs from a normal codex chapter, but we have a command structure like any other military organization. And we are disciplined. Or how do you think we keep the beast in us under control? You should read the SW novels. And no, the Great Wolf wouldn´t send other GC after a "Lost Company" as long as they don´t turned into traitors. We SW had always been very independed minded. That had been under Russ so and it is now so. There´re a lot of so called "Lost Companies". That´s companies who refuse to return to the Fang for various reasons. They don´t agree with the current Great Wolf, doesn´t see their task finished and so on. Those companies are still loyal to Russ and the Emperor but they go their own ways. All Wolf Lords swear an oath to Russ and the Emperor not to Great Wolf. As long as they serve the Emperor the Great Wolf let them go their own way. They can still call for assistant/supplies from other imperial sources like the AdMech. But after some time those companies will perish cause they can´t replace their battle looses. They just lack the technology to "create" new aspirants. Such equipment is only aviable at the Fang. Other will return to the Fang after they see their mission completed.

One example for a Lost Company is Jotun Bearclaw´s Great Company. He and two other GCs had been send into the Eastern Frings of the Galaxy to fight against the Tyranids. After his victory he decided not to return to Fenris but to stay in the Eastern Frings and continue the figth against the ´nids.

And yes, that´s fluff from GW. There was an article about the Lost Companies written by Andy Chambers in an old WD (May 2000 IIRC).

[Hrvat]

They can still call for assistant/supplies from other imperial sources like the AdMech. But after some time those companies will perish cause they can´t replace their battle looses. They just lack the technology to "create" new aspirants. Such equipment is only aviable at the Fang.

 

Well that is only partially true. The article in UK WD 245 tells us that "...given sufficient and technical competence it is entirely possible for such a company to maintain its strength over a protracted period, inducting and training new recruits in the same way as a normal Chapter. Less well supplied companies ... face the prospect of gradually dwindling in numbers until the company ceases to exist..."

 

 

Now to the matter of Great Companies

 

Codex Space Wolves (published alongside UK WD 244) "... the Space Wolves Chapter is divided into twelve 'Great Companies' ... Each Great Company has its own ... spacecraft, weapons, forges and other facilities ... it is a separate self sufficient body of warriors ..."

 

UK WD 245 Lone Wolves "... A Space Wolf Great Company is a substantial organisation..."

 

UK WD 246 Wolves of Fenris "... Space Wolf Great Companies are rather larger than the companies found in other Space Marine Chapters and are much more self sufficient. In most ways, each Great Company is a separate army in it own right ... Each Great Company has its own lair in the Fang and it own allocation of starships and weapons ..."

 

UK WD 258 Index Astartes "... In defiance of the Codex Astartes, the Space Wolves Chapter is split into twelve Great Companies ... each of the twelve Companies is a free-standing body of troops, with its own weapons, spacecraft, forges, customs ..."

 

 

Unfortunately I do not have the 2nd edition codex but everything I read here indicates at least to me that GW envisions a group large enough that it can function on its own and we know from recent background that GW sees normal codex companies as capable of doing that. The Great Company is "rather larger". At least to me it would indicate that it is not twice the size of the codex company or more.

 

 

Cheers

 

Hrvat

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

being in the army my self i can tell you a company is 100 strong on average, so the fact there are 12 companies mean there are 1200 space wolves in the chapter.

 

I was a Tom myself and use of the word "company" does not mean each organisation carrying that title has the same orbat (TO&E).

 

I've commanded an Armoured Infantry Company of 126 plus attached Offensive Support elements, a Light Role Maneouvre Support Company (Anti-Tanks, Mortars, Snipers and Recce) of nearly 180 and a training company of 350.

 

So a Great Company of 300+ sits quite comfortably in there.

 

 

Hmm, I am in a infantry company which has a fairly different structure, as space wolves are effectively infantry structured with extra training in all forms of combat inc: jump packs, bikes, speeders and tanks, i was basing it on my experience, and i didn't mean 100 was a maximum it is merely a minimum, I am in the Australian Infantry (so could easily differ from us forces), and being in a state regiment and not national regiment we are slightly under staffed, especially with a lot of our ranks temporarily strengthening the overseas nationals so that they can get leave, what is expected of the state wide battalions is purely defense of the nation and as such we are required to work on a part time basis, our nationals are "full timers" and are the ones who deploy overseas.

 

anyway as a minimum we have 10 men = 1 section, 2 sections is 1 platoon, 2 platoons + a HQ unit (approx. 5) is 1 minimum sized company. Total = 45 but this number would never seriously be fielded.

An average company would be 3 sections 3 platoons or 95 men

A full size company of infantry is 4 sections and 4 platoons or 165 men

An over size company which was the size fielded in WW1 at Gallipoli is 6 sections 6 platoons so 365 men

But those kinds are numbers are extreme circumstances not the norm.

 

So on that basis an average company should be about 100, which is what a normal spacemarine chapter has (100x10=1000), however we have great companies so on that basis you could say full size to over size is typical for a spacewolves company

 

On that basis i would say a company that has taken heavy losses would number <100

a normal sized great company >165.

and a maxed out great company will have up to 370 wolves.

 

note these are marines only numbers.

 

So next question is, who has fielded a full size 370 man +vehicles space wolves army? and what was the points cost?

[Grey Mage]

and what your talking about above is how a codex chapter would be with 12 companies. What you have lower is more like it.

 

As for a 370pts SW force, with appropos HQs, heavy support and FA options, wolf gaurd, and dreads ran me around 4.5k in a proxy game once. It took the marine armies of four players to bring to the field, and boy was that an ugly hodgepodge.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

i just noticed, that using my theory means every force organization chart is basically a platoon sized force.

 

for a great company we use 5 force organization charts to make 1 company so at about 3 HQ a FOC that comes to

15 HQ, 15 Elite, 30 Troop, 15 Fast, 15 Heavy.

 

thats 180 HQs 180 elites 360 troops 180 Fast 180 Heavy

 

Don't think anyone could field that

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I am in the Australian Infantry (so could easily differ from us forces), and being in a state regiment and not national regiment we are slightly under staffed, especially with a lot of our ranks temporarily strengthening the overseas nationals so that they can get leave, what is expected of the state wide battalions is purely defense of the nation and as such we are required to work on a part time basis, our nationals are "full timers" and are the ones who deploy overseas.

 

I was UK Armed Forces not US, so the organisations I mention come from a similar historical base to your own.

 

My standard 1500 force fields 41 wolves + HQs,vehicle/LS crews etc with a normal 2000 pt list adding at least another 15 to 20. I would suggest that this is larger than a modern platoon by between 50 to 100 percent but, as has been said, this really doesn't change the price of fish when talking at a GC accept that the noun "company" can mean many things.

 

I think part of the problem in this discussion is difference in the use of English. Here in UK we are notoriously understated, so "rather larger" can mean something very different than the odd extra Marine or two and could mean two or three times larger.

 

To illustrate this I recall a story from Anzio in 1944 when an American General asked a British Brigadier for an update on the situation in his area. He described it as "a bit choppy", which in UK English meant that he was being over-run but in US English meant that things were okay.

 

Regards,

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

so obviously based on your story of wording meaning anything we can do the following:

 

option 1 we find out the structure of every single army in the world and average the size of an army to represent the earth eventually doing the same thing over 38k years.

 

option 2 use the us "marines" as the basis for company size

 

option 3 use roman sizes for a company since its a empire

 

option 4 use russian sizes since there are commissars in IG and so terra might use russian terms and measurements.

 

option 5 figure out where the emperor was born and assume his countries armed forces eventually branched out over the years as he was used to it and his word was law.

 

option 6 say that a great company is 100-1000 marines strong and has never been counted and never will be.

(unless GW put a FO description in the new codex)

 

i vote 6 since GW is a british company (business not war type) then we have to assume that the terms used are in the british english. therefor company may be worded graker in the future but they use the language we know as a description and therefor a company is a company and a great company is bigger!

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

so obviously based on your story of wording meaning anything we can do the following:

 

option 1 we find out the structure of every single army in the world and average the size of an army to represent the earth eventually doing the same thing over 38k years.

 

option 2 use the us "marines" as the basis for company size

 

option 3 use roman sizes for a company since its a empire

 

option 4 use russian sizes since there are commissars in IG and so terra might use russian terms and measurements.

 

option 5 figure out where the emperor was born and assume his countries armed forces eventually branched out over the years as he was used to it and his word was law.

 

option 6 say that a great company is 100-1000 marines strong and has never been counted and never will be.

(unless GW put a FO description in the new codex)

 

i vote 6 since GW is a british company (business not war type) then we have to assume that the terms used are in the british english. therefor company may be worded graker in the future but they use the language we know as a description and therefor a company is a company and a great company is bigger!

 

Alternatively we can just remember that they are little plastic and metal models and keep off the caffeine :rolleyes:

[Valerian]

Durfast,

 

That's because the fluff is based more on a Conan the Barbarian-like fantasy land, its called Fenris, and some guys in England made it all up over 20 years ago. The archetype that they created is a fantasy one, that is intentionally reminiscent of Hollywood-style Vikings.

 

Unfortunately, the good fluff is absent from the 3rd edition pamphlet-like codex. To get the true feel for the Space Wolves you have to dig into the 2nd edition Codex, and of course some of those old Space Wolf novels.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

 

40k since '89

Space Wolves since '92

 

Hi Valerian,

 

I've been with them since the 2nd edition myself but a SW little later than yourself as most of my army dates from '96. My first marines were the old plastics, however, from late '87, and all chapter had the same organisation back then. So I can appreciate your view, and have the same sources, I just interpret them somewhat differently - especially as much of the early 40K fluff came out of ancient and early medieval history about which I have passing knowledge and, being based in UK and having gamed the system for a while, know a few of the people involved.

 

edited to say: sorry, laying out a few of my credentials feels awfully gauche but, in this case, I wanted to ensure that you didn't consider me to be questioning your position without due consideration of the background to this hobby.

 

Regards,

 

Durfast

 

Durfast, no problem. I actually appreciate your laying out of credentials, so I can get a better feel for your perspective. In discussions of fluff (which are admittedly open to interpretation and more than a little silly anyway), it is important to understand where one another is coming from. For all of that, I simply want to point out that all of the discussions about US or UK or Australian military organization and formations are largely irrelevant. They mean next to nothing when it comes to the armies of 40k. As far as that goes, discussions of actual, real-world, ancient (Roman), medieval (Templar and Viking) societies, cultures, and military organizations are also of little value. The simple fact is that the background of 40k is all make-believe science fiction/fantasy genre fluff that was all created to capture the imaginations of the players, and, I might add, that the fluff does that very well. From the beginning, the background for 40k has been great at getting our attention, grabbing hold of us, and keeping us immersed in this dark, gothic, futuristic imaginary universe.

 

This game has always been about establishing archetypes for the the readers' consumption. Ih the original Rogue Trader book, and early White Dwarf articles, all Space Marines were based on the sci-fi archetype established by Robert Heinlein in his novels. The only thing that differentiated them were chapter name and armor color; they were all simply "space marines".

 

After a few short years, the game designers and writers began to establish individual archetypes for each Space Marine chapter (as well as for each Imperial Guard regiment, Ork tribe, and Eldar craftworld). In fact, during this era, the pursuit of establishing a unique identity for each and every possible 40k organization seemed to be all the rage, like some unstoppable and unexplainable fad. Thus the lasting archetypes were established for all of the major chapters: Ultramarines would be like the Roman Legions, Dark Angels like secretive medieval Monks, Blood Angels like Italian artisan Vampires, and Space Wolves like barbarian Viking Wolf Packs, and sometimes Werewolves. A few years later, with the release of 3rd edition, the previously "codex" Black Templars had been retconned and added to the fold as medieval Knights Templar on a crusade.

 

Each of these chapters' codices included many story-line elements, as well as, army list design structures to reinforce these archetypes in sometimes subtle, and often not-so-subtle ways. And so here we are, it is now 2009 and some of these chapter identities and "personalities" have been pretty well established for nearly 20 years. Since there have been a multitude of designers, article writers, and novel authors over the years, there has been quite a number of differing interpretations and expressions of the character of each chapter in general, and the Space Wolves in particular. In the end, what the Space Wolves are all about is up to each of us, they are "ours" to judge.

 

Ultimately, all of this rambling leads me to this simple conclusion: no one can say for sure how large each Great Company is, nor can pinpoint its exact structure. Until someone from GW puts it into writing (and even then, it can later be changed, as we well know), each of our Great Companies is as large or small as we want it to be.

 

Very best regards,

 

Your humble servant,

 

Valerian