15+ Model units

[Mutt-Man!]

Which unit is the overall best to use en-massed to combat it? Terminators and the like are candid, I'm leaning to the troops and havoc/raptor units. Our smallest troop unit are daemons at 15 so thus I made it 15... (Almost goofed and said 20, any number of D-units can be used I suppose to make up the other 5)

 

Im racking my brain, and I thought I would get enough games in trying one unit of 20 every other game or so. Units that dont care to bog itself down being large. I find the usual assortment of basic marines with a durability icon does best so far as the scoring and points ease goes. Since icons do shine in large units like that. But I want to establish which really is the best at 15+... Something about lacking fearless just bugs me I suppose.

 

 

Berzerkers, lacking meltas to chase quick stuff relying on lesser AP and strength pistols. Three pistols arent bad I guess, and being able to pick between 4 str5 attacks or a single krak grenade a model is great. (Really how many str5 attacks does it take to install a tail light? - all attacks vs non walkers hit rear) So it balances out somewhat for their "weak point" and a fist can romp a walker or any character that likes to play dodge the fist. A solid unit. Lets see thats... Ahem.

20 Zerks: Fist-Champ, 3 Plaspistols, Icon

Points total: 510

--Ok not bad, we get what we pay for when we use zerkers. The pistols are spendy but are a must, we all know big units like this WILL face its weakness sooner or later. In a zerks case, skimmers that dance around them.

 

Noise Marines, well ugh, which way should I go with this? I can put everything in there but do I really want to keep this unit still for more then half the game(Blastmaster use)? Then over-shoot things with its excessive firepower(sonic blasters)? Do I bother with their flame weapon when most often they will get out-maneuvered being such a huge unit(Doom Siren)? Well what do I do, maybe I'll get some input before considering this. Somehow I feel bad in this category for Noise Marines.

--N/A

 

Plague Marines, ok now we've got something solid. Meltas, or plasma guns that cost less and do more, maybe I should mix it just a tiny bit. A fist for the champ using a combi-flamer, with two meltas in the unit and call it good? Sure no mass attacks, this unit has its banes but is the most likely to survive out of all the others I believe. Not much to add here, the icpon definately since deep strike is apparent in most lists these days or is just a nice accessory to add for whatever. All those grenades do a world of good being that this unit WILL get charged.

20 Plagues: Fist-Champ, Combi-Flamer, 2 Meltas

Points total: 535

--I think this one is the winner, but not being able to abuse cover and bogging 20 down even with the slightest cover is a hinderence, and whi;le not being the best in melee it has something for everything. Its not too powerful offensively though, and that could be its deciding factor. Objective holding, I believe nothing is better.

 

 

Thousand Sons, ok I need help o nwhich damn power to use! The unit is very very simple. No grenades, no fist, no real melee weapons to speak of. The lack of two sorcerers gives an inherent bonus of not paying for two, but overkill is a heavy factor and the pick of rolling difficult terrain twce rather then once is superior so. This unit suffers, especially the range+difficult terrain combination. Icon for sure, daemons really need to back this unit up for melee because its hard to get around such a big unit to counter charge when they want to get close to bolt people. Not to mention as well, its the most costly unit thus far. Power weapon weilders hate them though, a unit that REALLY needs backup.

19 Sons+Sorc: Bolt of Change (hey it needs anti-tank), 1 Meltabombs, Icon, Basic Rhino

(Ok before you say anything about the rhino, its to get in the way of melee dudes to let them back up)

Points total: 567

--Oddly enough that seems better then I felt it would be. Perhaps just a scare-unit to walk up the middle stopping any objective claimers as best as possible. A unit that will fail like most others to small arms fire, like sisters of battle do often. I hope adding the rhino counters some of it being a nuisance blocker.

 

Basic Chaos Space Marines, alrighty now we've got the fundimental unit. Question is, which icon shall I throw in? It must be tzeentch or nurgle, I wont settle for the whole purpose of this unit be ignored (durability). I will just throw out both total points costs for the hell of it. They got the grenades, they are cheap and they can be enhanced by fabius bile for fearlessness if I REALLY want it... That +1 strength is like a zerk tank slapping effect as well, so thats a bonus. Having one model die a turn at +2 strength is also a lesser punishment then losing 2 a turn between 2 units, so thats also nice. Damn it I'll just say +60 if you want enhancements. Nice options, will have to go with meltas and a combi-flamer here too. I like flames, use them rarely and give those boyscouts a campfire.

20 CSM's: Fist-Champ, Combi-Flamer, 2 Meltas, Icon of Nurgle or Tzeentch, (+60 for enhancements+fabius of course)

Points total: 410tze/420nur (+60enha)

--The safest bet I suppose, can quickly change around the icons between games to face what you have problems with so its not like you bought 20 plagues vs a pie plate army, or 20 sons to face a tau dakkaforce. I like it, positive, to the point and with enhancements its not too shabby in the long run. Though they are lesser then the other 20-size durable units for a bit more in comparison. Split yet again...

 

Lesser Daemons, meh they're backup, make great boggers and objective takers when you dont care to use the last few (unlike having just a champ or meltagun left). Instead of paying 460 for 20 plague marines you can buy 35 lesser daemons for 455 at nearly double the wounds, attacks and having inv saves on top of it, their capability for the game stands out. Again, no grenades or range, thats them..

N/A

 

Now for the candy units.

 

Raptors, same as the marines but +100 points and no enhanced options. Dont deep strike with them, I beg of you. You WILL lose them. These guys perhaps I would consider using the khorne icon instead, just to make up the lost 100 points and no bolters.

N/A (See CSM's above)

 

Possessed, oooook... Where to start. Well that strength 5 is cool for vehicles, offering a penetrating chance against anything except a super heavy, a walker, the demolisher or land raider. (Really that's all). I will try and descipher a little on the random list. If you get scout and outflank or use the scout move then your that much closer to melee. (A shame it says after deployment, a risky reserves hold back IMO) If you get furious charge then you have lots of "krak" grenades to slap a vehicle with. Fleet of foot, well thats nice to let you get the "run" during the turn you would charge, similar to the scouts rule I suppose. Rending, well there's some fun, hope you got an icon of khorne. Feel no pain, ok you pay the same for a plague marine, except this one has an Inv save perhaps the same as a thousand son, or the same toughness as a plague marine. Either way its gold. Power weapons, no explination needed here. Icons are cool here, its like having Icon of Tzeentch mixed with fabius' enhancements without having fabius.

20 Possessed: Icon of Khorne

Total points: 550

(I relented, speed or melee enhancement, gotta have more attacks)

--Not impressed, but heck if I want str5 for vehicles and Inv save freeing up an icon slot then here it is. The random roll isnt that bad, wish I had more control like 3.5...

 

Havocs, alright just like CSM unit these guys are just like them except with more meltas or pure plasma. Either way, I cant enhance them so with a heavy heart, I would make them a melee unit with 5 flamers. (One combi) Just for the fact they are a nonscoring unit that cant just sit there and shoot to be useful when I could pick similar or better options. Why sit 20 men just for 2 more plasma guns then a regular CSM unit? Having to abuse 5 flamers seems more worthwhile as accepting the loss of durability icons.

20 Havocs: Fist-champ, Combi-flamer, 4 Flamers, Icon of Khorne

Total points: 400

--I like it, sacrificial and to the point. Something a front line unit can be proud of, I wont sit it back while my scoring units get hammered, nor will I spend so many points on guns and sit 16 guys back to pick their noses. Two meltaguns is not worth the loss of making this unit scoring, not sure of this choice at all so then its if I want to sacrifice a unit to spearhead. You see where I'm trying to get at I hope, giving it plausability?

 

10 Bikes with nurgle icon, 10 terminators with a tzeentch icon, either way these units are also gold and arent included in the lineup because of certain units and things that make them die like any other marine. (The icon match for these are based on strengthening their existing bonus) The 10 chosen would perhaps be 5 plasmaguns for the outflank bashing, or if melee outflankers then it would be slaanesh icon with a bunch of lightening claws. (Outflank changes my opinion with melee weps on chosen, heh, I'm eating my words right now)

 

Having 20 kroot mercs with +20 kroot hounds as a fast attack choice is a really cool unit to abuse, err I mean use. Forty models is nothing to sneer at, I like-em. Not included though, no PA/Inv save, better off with 10 marines or daemons.

 

I think thats it for the units?

 

-Vote for toughest non raider chaos vehicle, 49"+ range for Defiler's cannon, Predator destructor with lascannon turrets and a dreadnought blocking its hull. (The side sponsons shoot around the dread/monstrous creature etc).

 

Any thoughts, opinions, changes and strategies? Anything would be of use, I cant keep my head straight after testing every unit here with my playstyle and expect to remember it all when I'm through. WIP: Tactica Unit Points.

[the jeske]

you should never ever use 20 man squads . for the cost of a tooled up [500+pts] zerker unit I can take two 8 man units in rhinos. they give more targets are faster do more or less the same dmg [but can do it in two different places] , they are also twice as scoring [2>1] . even if one gets pumeled by a anti squad or a counter unit the other one is still alive [or not lashed etc] I dont have to worry that anything with blast weapons owns me . I dont have to worry that am always seen by the whole enemy army [no way to hide 20 man with true LoS] , even with cover this still means more dead csm/zerkers/pms. what else ...ah harder to move around , easier for opponent to own with eldar/lash/calidus.

 

am sure others will find more bad sides of playing with anything bigger then 10 man.

[Cornelias]

i think the only unit i would find a use of at more than 10 models is daemons, bring a unit of 12-15 down on an objective on turn 3+ would be pretty hard to shift unless you were using lash against it. like Jeske says units of 20 are a big no go for sure.

[Mutt-Man!]

Dawn of War and/or Annihilation benefits such units. I have done so. In my style I dont buy champions unless I feel I need a fist in the unit. I rather get extra terminators for every champ I try to get. Running a squad of 20 is two squads with one fist and 1 extra terminator. The lost "speial weapons" are in tose terminator units, or a small bike unit I add if I feel I want it.

 

Granted both game parts are 1/3 chance twice, a good chance these units will be made use of. 6"+Run is nearly as good where I play because its standard doctrine (your looked down upon and preached heavily to if you dont shoot transports full of chaos specialists first, even above defilers and vindicators in range). Some fellas start with 7 rhinos - we figure 4 rhinos die on average in the first shooting phase and the other 3 are to help the force walk forward for a second movement phase in a terrain-hopping maneuvre behind them. We go that far in rhino destruction to even consider how many licks it takes to get to the center of a rhino force.

 

So considering that, on average 12+ anti tank weapons strength 8 and above hitting rhinos every turn on an average 2k game. (And plenty of heavy bolter/other shots str6+ aiming their way). Rhino forces cringe going second. I am forced to buy land raiders to see one rhino surive past turn 3 by hiding it behind. Hell whirlwinds fire at it still just to try and immobilise it! ... Standard group fire priority doctrines =\...

 

So considering my aim of this thread, help a fella out a bit with the idea? Which do you think are best, primarily from the troops selection? I will be testing 2x20 sonic blaster noise marine squads in a 2k soon, maybe run with 3 vindicators along with a few units of chosen with meltas outflanking. ~I let the guy know I'm outflanking before deployment to make him set up in the middle for me to spread him apart from the fear of pie plates and stress his deployment options, then pick apart his units moving in killing as I advance. I'm not nice. =p

[Cornelias]

for footslogging i guess noisemarines would be better as you'll need the range on the weapons and the fact they still pack a punch when/if you get into charging range.

[Mutt-Man!]

Think that will have to a be a part of my test run, though I'll miss using multiple units to sack different guard units. Oi drawbacks...

[minigun762]

I dont buy champions unless I feel I need a fist in the unit. I rather get extra terminators for every champ I try to get.

Thats true for Cult Troops but I think if you're playing with 15+ CSMs you NEED to have the Champion for their LD10. I"d also mandate a Icon of Chaos Glory, the reason being you need to rely on that squad not running off the board and LD10 reroll is the best you can do outside fearless.

I'd also go with a Power Fist, as the last thing you'd want to do is have them held up all game by a Dreadnought or Carnifex. Sure they have Kraks and 2 attacks each, but when a 100+ point unit holds up your 250+ point SCORING unit because they couldn't kill it in time, that is a solid win for the other guy.

 

Granted both game parts are 1/3 chance twice, a good chance these units will be made use of. 6"+Run is nearly as good where I play because its standard doctrine (your looked down upon and preached heavily to if you dont shoot transports full of chaos specialists first, even above defilers and vindicators in range). Some fellas start with 7 rhinos - we figure 4 rhinos die on average in the first shooting phase and the other 3 are to help the force walk forward for a second movement phase in a terrain-hopping maneuvre behind them. We go that far in rhino destruction to even consider how many licks it takes to get to the center of a rhino force.

 

So considering that, on average 12+ anti tank weapons strength 8 and above hitting rhinos every turn on an average 2k game. (And plenty of heavy bolter/other shots str6+ aiming their way). Rhino forces cringe going second. I am forced to buy land raiders to see one rhino surive past turn 3 by hiding it behind. Hell whirlwinds fire at it still just to try and immobilise it! ... Standard group fire priority doctrines =\...

It sounds like people are gearing up for knocking out transports (which they should because MEQ or not, most armies are mechanized these days). However I'm not sure if footslogging is the answer. It could be, but if you don't have your Rhino to take those hits up front, it means those same anti-tank/anti-transport shots are either going for your support units or your infantry themselves and there is only so much a 3+ armor save can take.

 

So considering my aim of this thread, help a fella out a bit with the idea? Which do you think are best, primarily from the troops selection?

In my mind, here is how your choices rank

1) regular CSM (assuming IoCG) are one of the best choices because they're so cheap. Put a Power Fist Champion and 2 Meltas/Plasma in there as insurance (you are walking and have tons of Bolter so Flamers aren't viable) and move up. Squad is going to cost you almost 290ish points compared to a 10 man Rhino squad at 260ish points. Are 5 bodies worth a transport and 30 points? Its hard to say

2) Berserkers are viable, they're Fearless and very good in close combat. Again I'd back them up with a Power Fist Champion to stop them from getting tarpitted by a Dreadnought. They have no real disadvantage as they have the same effective range as the CSMs (12" on the move) but with 1/2 the shooting.

3) Plague Marines seem like an obvious choice as they are very durable but its the cost that makes me wonder. A 15 man squad with Melta/Power Fist is going to be 400+ points, that means you could have 45 Plague Marines or 60 CSMs for the same price. If we're talking big walking squads, I'd rather have 33% more bodies on the table. Plague Marines are also just as easily to kill using Battle Cannons, Demolishers and other heavy anti-tank weapons as rank and file CSMs and if you're moving up the board, there won't be enough cover normally.

4) Rubric Marines also seem like an obvious choice, packing a long range (24") weapon and their own cover save equivalent. My issue with them is speed, you're already walking but now you're walking through difficult terrain always, that makes it very unlikely you're going to be getting to the enemies objectives anytime soon. I see them working more by creating a wall of 3+/4++ AP3 Bolter death on 1-2 objectives and using your other units to contest the rest.

5) Noise Marines (assuming Sonic Blasters at minimum) are probably the worst choice and thats saying alot because I love and play them. They're just too expensive with no defensive upgrade. They die like regular CSMs but cost more then Plague Marines/Rubrics. The added range of their weapons just doesn't seem worth it without some sort of protection, which they normally get from a Rhino.

[Mutt-Man!]

Will see how the test works out when the game comes up on noise marines, I'm curious.

 

Plague Marines following another squad (cover save) and such might be an idea.

 

Regular marines with IoT would be a nice front unit to take hits, spread wide to cover more then just the other troops.

 

Still plenty to whip around with. Serious though on the anti transport doctrine, people hate facing and using transports here unless they're like eldar falcons/wave serpents, sacrificial rhinos with nothing in them(mobile cover), extra firepower razorbacks sitting back with devistators and so on.

 

I think sitting thousand sons on nearby objectives near/within my deployment zone is a way to use them I suppose.

 

Its hard to pick apart in this category, like always. Too many options. =P

[the jeske]

mutt I agree with you that some units may work a bit different in 2k pts in some scenarios . But in a setting where you dont know what scenario your playing and/or play 1750 or 1500 20 man units just dont work . the big cost units as troops can be pulled off by orks[because aside for nob bikers they have other cheap troops ] if you someone takes 2 500pts units in a 1500 game . then he has just lost all meta units all transports and a lot of the hvy support he could use . and he is still going to lose to an eldar army who will zip around him and drop down on the objective on turn 4/5 and blocking charges with skimers .

[Mutt-Man!]

Will be gaming with the list today, I'm getting the feeling taking the extreme route like I always do is what nails me. One unit may suffice at 20 while the other two are 10 strong. (Only need to win the annihilation score by 1 point anyways) and 30 will do in dawn of war.

 

Still will try both 20's just for this game. I'll be facing Tyranids and Tau, I think he will use tyranids first like she always does to measure up my experiment lists. She uses 130 spinegaunts in it, I think it will go well if I can chew up each unit enough before they charge and face I5 attacks. If not them it will be her 40+ genestealer and warrior list.

 

Her tau has everything under the blacksun (she uses blacksun). So she will put me under duress once she finds out what my list is.... =\

[Psyan 2]

Something worth noting is that if you take Fabulous Bile (he has to be fabulous because he wears pink armor!) in a big game, you can enhance your Regular CSM with him for +3 pts a model and they become Fearless and probably +1S.. which then frees you to take an Icon other than CG, or even none at all.

[Mutt-Man!]

Been into that Psyan, and the fact that few die if I roll a unstable mutation+2 strength -1 model a turn in a squad of 20, seems reasonable.

 

Here for the short battle report.

 

She caught wind of my strategy and brought her genestealer force onto the table, I think she used 60 and outflanked with all of them, with ehanced carapaces (annoying =P). She caught one unit in melee and tore it up without it shooting a single shot the entire game, they killed about 17 stealers mostly the first unit that charged them. Five out of 6 genestealer units arrived on the left side, on turn 2.. Lucky! SO I suppose that's why that unit failed, still epic though it ended up killing near its worth in just a melee conflict. Like most rending units if you got the bodies to wade through their initial strike to return enough attacks, they usually die off. THe second unit came out with a few scratches, she was left with 2 carnifexes and I had 16 sonic marines left at the end of the game. It was a game of chase the mousey spitting strangler shots vs "storm bolters" on the move. She would have ran them but I had too much room and would have ran as well. (she has bad luck with run dice)

 

Next game she used her Tau like I knew she would. She used 3 hammerheads and all 72 fire warriors she could muster, all inside 4+ cover. So my plan to spread her thin with my area effect weps were for nothing really, I got past about half her force before I was rendered ineffective, all three hammerheads died and roughly 30 tau fell dead. Wepp prepared as always to counter my force, I really should change my army when that happens. Instead of just being arrogant and believing I can beat her army-gearing tactics. Though, I believe a nurgle set would have done much better in both battles! I will try nurgles next time and see how she fares... Lucky she dont know about BnC (she wont play PA armies). Or else my hide would be cooked.

 

Both games ended up being table quarters, tyranid fight was annihilate(I won that one), the other was sieze, which I lost horribly.

 

One unit of 20 seems to be the key, its enough of a bonus to use the other units as I wish 10 and below. Only lose on average 1 champ and 2 special weapons when using two 10's. The large unit benefit really shines when fragile-ish melee bashers get the charge on them, and the counter assault follows is truly something I adore now. New methods arise! (well new to me anyways)

 

Counter charge units, may as well take the charge with a big unit and let them handle things... =P