Thoughts and questions from a begginer

[Prathios]

After getting some games under my belt and stretching my wings a little I thought I would make some points I've discovered and ask some questions.

 

So I'm trying to teach my friend (crippledpig) how to play the game and along the way give him basic tactical advice (much of which I have learned from reading the discussions here.)

 

So let me start by giving a basic quick and easy write up of our game last night so I have some basis for my questions and observations.

 

We played a 750 point game and I decided to try and do my first pure GK list. I took:

 

GKGM w/2 terminator squad.

5 PAGK w/2 psycannons & Meltabombs & Power Sword (I'm an idiot and forgot the justicar has one already, so oops.)

5 PAGK w/2 psycannons

Dreadnought w/plasma cannon, smoke, and armor.

 

Now if my memory serves this was his list

 

Cannoness with the 2+armor save and a 4+inv (I don't have the names for the gear down yet.)

15x sisters with hvy flame and storm bolter + Sister Superior with plasma pistol (master crafted)

12x dominion squad with 2 flamers and 2 storm bolters. Sister Superior with plasma pistol and power sword. (pp master crafted.)

1x exorcist with hunter killer and extra armor

1x immolator with extra armor, hunter killer, and heavy bolters.

 

The game got fairly lopsided really fast for a few reasons.

-He didn't put his cannoness in a squad, and on turn 1 she failed a save against a psycannon, so that was it for her.

-The exorcist decided to be a jerk and yield 1's and 2's each round and my dreadnought never got so much as injured. On one turn he took a shaken result because I popped smoke and he rolled a 3 on the only pen he got.

-My GM and crew were able to make it to close combat with his sister squad and tore them apart. They failed morale and he used Light of the emperor the following turn.

-I was able to destroy his immolator on turn 2 with psycannon shots to the side armor.

-The dominion squad didn't really interact until late game because he moved them too far to the side and the flamer choice for weapons kept him from shooting much at the PAGK's.

 

I ended up winning 4kps to 1. I lost a squad of PAGK to the dominion squad when I assaulted because he was in cover and I had no grenades (arg!!!) so his sister with her power sword and plasma pistol ended up killed 3 of the five PAGK's before they so much as swung their weapons. The dread actually got into CC with the exorcist after a bunch of turns running and dodging. I lost two of the termies and the GM was wounded twice but he survived.

 

So first I'd like to ask what are your opinions on the lists, both mine and his.

 

And second here are some thoughts I've gathered since playing and reading the boards.

-Psycannons are anything but overrated. They are like super heavy bolters to give you options and I will be taking them often despite their astronomical price tag. I will admit that they are too expensive but they are very effective and really help give Daemonhunters the adaptability to do any job. I think in smaller point games they can be even better than in larger games because they can kill (readily kill even) the light vehicles you see so much in smaller point games. I think however like all things DH that these weapons are best used in moderation as they can really point sink an already small team.

 

-PAGK cost too much. Yes I know, thank you captain obvious. This just can't get stated enough, when you pay more for a justicar than you do for a terminator it makes using PAGKs a real pain the butt to pay for when building your force. They die just as easily as regular marines and they cost half again as much. Five man squads of them are a terrible idea. Their simply are not enough wounds in the group to get the job done unless you plan on keeping them at arms length the whole game. So from now on I will not use PAGK squads unless I can afford to fill the group out to full. This aspect makes my choice of running Storm Troopers much more attractive since I get heavy weapons and just as many wounds on a squad of them plus a transport for the same price tag as a foot slogging PAGK group. Pure GK lists seem like very risky way to play, because if the dice treat you poorly in a pure GK list you can lose way too much at one time.

 

-shrouding is useless. I don't know how much of that 25 points we pay for it but it's over the top. If your GK are in shooting range of them shrouding is worthless. The only unit shrouding begins to help out is Psycannon shooting PAGK squads. The single most important unit that could benefit from shrouding doesn't even get it... the dreadnought. Why Dreadnoughts don't receive shrouding is beyond me but it makes zero sense. I can't imagine how helpful this ability would be if a Dreadnought with a las/missile combo could benefit from it.

 

-Don't use plasma canons on vehicles that are being attacked in CC from your Grand Master. :P

 

And from the WH side.

 

-Faith points are amazing, not just good, not just great but semi-broken amazing. These things make the sisters a powerhouse. AP 1 shots, Str 6 CC attacks, fearless, the fun never stops. It seems to me that this is a reason so many people dislike Repentia, Arcoflag, and Penitent engines, as they don't help you with faith.

 

-Price tag. I think the sisters get more bang for the buck than anyone. Sister squads are absolutely impossible to kill quickly. Crippledpig rolls well in general and we have actually nicknamed his rolling potential but even a guy like me who has an average roll of 2 still appreciates an 11 point model with a 3+ save. In an entire shooting phase I think the best I ever did was kill 2 sisters.

 

-Immolators are risky business. They have very crappy armor and fulfill a roll the sisters themselves can perform. You can nab a dominion squad for just a little more and they are going to outperform it in every way.

 

-Exorcists are finicky beasts. They don't always come through for you but regardless of how they roll they always scare the daylights out of me. Knowing that the thing can pump out six shots of AP1 missiles makes these things golden.

 

So in summary as both myself and CP grow and learn more of the game the main thing I would stress for his army is more sisters. More sisters is a good choice any time and any place. It seems you could make a very competitive 2000 point list with a few exorcists and nothing but a sea of sisters.

 

As for me the thing the game is teaching me very quickly is the need to balance your force. The DH require a very careful balance of power to get the job done and its hard to do considering how few units we get. I can't stand the army lists I see that have a bunch of land raiders, and it seems like a huge waste of points to do that. I can't even talk myself into using more than one. I don't like GHLR because it doesn't know what it wants to do, is it a fire support platform or a transport? If its a fire support doesn't that mean you could get the same or more anti-armor punch from dreadnoughts or even squads of troopers with melta guns and rhinos? The LRC is awesome but its only useful if I plan on taking my terminators in force. So every time I build a list I end up not using any Land Raiders, and this seems to go against the majority of the players here who use them religiously.

 

So based on all this, what can the few of you who made it through this lengthy post/rant add or point out to help a new player. Thanks for reading and responding in advance.

[Grabsnikk]

On the Sisters side, I can tell you now that giving a Rosarius (4+inv) to a Canoness is mostly a waste of points, this is because by passing a leadership test the Canoness can gain an inv save equal to her armour save which can make her really hard to kill. I also find that a Mantle of Ophelia is a must have (for me at least) as it stops you from suffering instant death once in the game. Mark my words on this when you take it and it doesn't get any use, it feels like wasted points for sure, but it's the day that you leave it behind and your Canoness fails that 2+inv that makes you wish you had taken it.

 

The second point that I can make is that taking an all footslogging SOB army can be fun, but the reality is that SOB perform best when they can engage the enemy at ranges under 12". This means that if you are footslogging, the enemy will be able to assault you before you make it into that magic range and suddenly all you have is a bunch of power armoured guardsmen stuck in combat. Sisters tend to perform very well in a Mechanized build, which is typically every unit mounted in a transport apart from exorcists so that you can get into the magic range quickly and without fear of being assaulted before you have fired a shot.

 

Also, I find that Immolators are best fielded with their stock Heavy Flamers as you can move 12" and still fire in addition to any units inside that can disembark and let fly with whatever they are packing.

 

On the side of the GK, I would never recommend taking a GM in games less than 1500 Pts, mainly because he is too empensive and uses up a ton of points. Just by dropping him to a simple Brother-Captain, you can field another 2 GKT for the points you save on him. I also feel that if you want Psycannons, then this is where they should be considering that they can move and fire at max range with them and that they keep their NFW.

 

As for PAGK, well I am a big fan of keeping their squad sizes around about 8 as they will gain more survivability at this size. Also, I am not a big fan of giving these guys Psycannons, first because of the points cost (which, incidentally will buy you another PAGK), but secondly because it means that you have to give up the NFW on the carrier which we pay a lot of points for in the first place. Thirdly, taking Psycannons in this squad encourages you to stand still to take full advantage of the max range of this weapon. IMO, PAGK should never be standing still but moving constantly to keep out of LOS of the enemy's guns and also out of assault range of the enemy.

 

I would also reccomend reading the Way of the Water Warrior Tactica at the top of the forum as it gives some good advice about tactics with GK.

 

The dreadnought that you used above could probably be made more effective by taing TLLC instead of the PC as it is much more effective against vehicles, which is what you need the dread to be - good against vehicles. Don't worry about anti-troop capabilities as your PAGK and GKT should have that wrapped up already.

[Prathios]

Concerning way of the water warrior I have to start by saying I've read the entire stinking thread. Its a heck of a read but I did anyway, and I did this before I even collected half my army. There are however fundamental problems with it IMO. Its designed around 1 principle, and that's to win by whatever means necessary. Its a tactica that forces you to adhere to a very strict list and regimen and I hate that with an fiery passion. I play the game for custimization and I liked this team because of the wargear and unique feel, and I don't want to be forced to adhere to the doctrine of LR + PAGK + meltabombs rinse repeat. Thats boring and not very fluffy. We already have few unit choices and it seems that a lot of people on the board essentially field the exact same list as one another. Now on the other hand you can apply principle without using the list and I think its very wise to do so. Its a marvelous tactica and has tons of great things in it but as a player who enjoys fluff and personalization I cannot follow it to the letter.

 

As for the dreadnought, I have a TLLC/MSL dread and I chose not to take him, cause honestly I don't like them. Its a mobile turret and sorta losses the whole point of being a dreadnought, and they look silly. That and it becomes a priority target, and dreadnoughts don't seem to have the life to be priority targets. If I had more games I would have purchased both of them though and taken him as a dedicated anti-vehicle machine. But in a small points game where my opponent fielded very few vehicles would I have honestly gotten my points out of a dedicated vehicle killer? I like the Plasma/CC dread for its fluffyness, and multirole utility. I can play him how I like based on what my opponent ended up taking, hes got just enough punch to hurt vehicles and can still kill infantry effectively and forces you to keep him mobile. This was my philosophy behind these choices.

 

Why a squad size of 8 PAGK? Is that including Justicar? And if so why go short of squad cap when 1 away? As for the psycannons it doesn't seem that you can purchase enough of them on a GKT group to make it worth your time. Sure they can fire full range but you can only have 2 and that requires the captain to take one. I don't have a modded Captain Model to give him a psycannon so I don't really want to do that and I hate using stuff I don't have models for. As for the mobile PAGK point my question for all the DH players on this is what good are they running around popping shots when you don't kill anything... Storm Bolters are great and all but the actual PAGK teams ive fielded in every game have so far killed *drum roll* 8 guys. After all the misses, fails to wound, and armor saves they almost never kill anything. Now that is considering I usually only get 8 dice per shooting phase per group since I had been taking 5 man squads with at least 1 heavy weapon, but still that's terrible shooting for a 25 point model. Sadly my PAGK have so far never made their points back. I guess I don't understand trying to play the PAGK as an eldar hit and run unit since they don't seem particularly good at it (what with no transport options.)

 

As far as the GM goes you're probably right. I just hate the captain. As a fluffy gamer the idea of a GK Terminator Captain having 1 wound against my opponents 3 wound Cannoness just about brings me to tears. I payed the points for a GM to brace my fragile ego. I have HQ envy. But yeah, I could have gotten two more PAGK for that price and it would have done fine.

 

Also I can't really tell the general philosophy of your suggestions as some of it is a little conflicted. If you want to keep your PAGK out of assault range (which is odd considering they do fairly well in assault) then how come you're concerned about losing the NFW? And if you like the bolter so much why hate the psycannon, its 1 less shot on the move as a second PAGK but at a much greater chance to wound and at the same range... And it can hurt vehicles.

 

I think a frustrating part of playing this team is that so much variablity in play style can occur that its hard to agree on whats effective/fluffy/important and whats not.

 

Perhaps I can agree more with you if I understood your approach to the game. I very much appreciate your reply. Hopefully Crippled Pig can benefit from your WH write up, because the mechanized option seems like a very good idea, though he may hate having to get some rhinos.

[WAR]

rosarius was awaste of points as she could have a 2+ invulnerable save but psycannons would negate that

 

sister squads (any size) should take the heavy flamer ,meltagun and frag grenades shoot them at close range

 

all veterans sisters should be equipped with Book of St. Lucius as it helps almost all morale tests need to be taken along as within 6 inches of another model and a bolter -plasma not really worth it (mc or not) as it may still kill her

 

max dominion size is 10.....not 12 and if it was two squads he would need a second transport...unit is pricey and not really worth, it but hey I have like 5 units of dominions in immolators I can field in APOC, Retributor squads would have been better

 

Immolators only need heavy flamers, 12 inch move and burn what is near you.....for a fun trick take a shooty canonness and put her in one. tank gets popped she can charge next turn usually, if tank is mobile shoot them with her bolter/combi bolter every turn

 

exorcists ok as a single, creates hate when fielded in three's, best as pair

 

faith points I guess the only comment I have is used at the right time and factoring in squad size the can be down right powerful

 

-I perfer foot slogging my sisters and at 1850 I run over 100 sisters (actual number is 104-107 with 9/10 faith points with 3 variations

 

but I use Canoness (shooty), 5 sister squads (15 strong each), up to 2 retributors (10 strong each ), seraphim (8 strong) celestian command squad (9 strong) and repentias (12 plus mistress.....yet to kill anything but die before 2nd turn free KP anyone)

[CrippledPig]

My problem is that I still do not have a rulebook to keep inside the bathroom and read, all I have to go on is someone else's experience and my codex. Once I finally break down and get one (Possibly this week), things will be better. I was wondering about the flame immolator for a while, because there are special rules that give it bonuses. Especially the one that creates morale checks on a single casualty, awesome.

 

The dominion squad was 9 sisters (2x flame, 2x storm), and a vet sister (mastr crft plasma, powersword).

Immolator hvy bolt w/ extra armor, blessed ammo, smoke.

Canoness w/ mastr crft plasma, power sword, cloak st.Aspira, rosarius.

Excorsist w/ extra armor and smoke.

a sister squad (Forgot number of sisters, but the vet sister was the exact same as the dominion for items... and I know I had 3 krak and 3 frags)

 

Wanted to get my newly painted seraphim in there, but oh well.

 

And as Prathios stated... Acts of Faith are amazing. Love em.

[Grand Master Iapetus]

Its a marvelous tactica and has tons of great things in it but as a player who enjoys fluff and personalization I cannot follow it to the letter.

 

Ah, Prathios...I too, your noble brother, feel your pain and know your woes...

 

There is a lot of the article that I not only ignore, but actually do some things entirely opposite. IE: I typically use 0 PAGK until I start pushing 2K. Also, Assasins and shooty =][= are a staple in my list. It's purely for the fluff - I love them.

 

What I found it really did for me was help me to step back and look at what I wanted to play with, and determine how it was going to interact with the rest of my army and the opponents I face off against. For that it was invaluable.

 

So don't feel bad...and don't look at WW from a tactical standpoint, think about the meta game and play what you want to play - it will help a bunch.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

-Psycannons are anything but overrated. They are like super heavy bolters to give you options and I will be taking them often despite their astronomical price tag. I will admit that they are too expensive but they are very effective and really help give Daemonhunters the adaptability to do any job. I think in smaller point games they can be even better than in larger games because they can kill (readily kill even) the light vehicles you see so much in smaller point games. I think however like all things DH that these weapons are best used in moderation as they can really point sink an already small team.

 

I completely agree. If you don't take psycannons on a foot-slogging PAGK squad, you're left with storm bolters. It is nice to fire two bolter shots on the move at 24" all the time, but even with big squads they don't kill a great deal (especially if the enemy has power armour). Psycannons give the unit it's teeth, even if it does cost you 2 models and gimps the effectiveness of the carriers (so in reality you're missing out on 4 models with NFW's).

-PAGK cost too much. Yes I know, thank you captain obvious. This just can't get stated enough, when you pay more for a justicar than you do for a terminator it makes using PAGKs a real pain the butt to pay for when building your force. They die just as easily as regular marines and they cost half again as much. Five man squads of them are a terrible idea. Their simply are not enough wounds in the group to get the job done unless you plan on keeping them at arms length the whole game. So from now on I will not use PAGK squads unless I can afford to fill the group out to full. This aspect makes my choice of running Storm Troopers much more attractive since I get heavy weapons and just as many wounds on a squad of them plus a transport for the same price tag as a foot slogging PAGK group. Pure GK lists seem like very risky way to play, because if the dice treat you poorly in a pure GK list you can lose way too much at one time.

 

I disagree entirely (if anything they're slightly undercosted). However, you're right in saying 'take a big squad or don't bother'. 5-7 man squads will get wiped out too easily, 8-man is the smallest you should go (and thats only as a concession for taking dual psycannon, due to the points cost the weapons incur). If you're mechanising, 10-man with dual incinerator is the way to go (charging out of a Crusader/Landraider and unleashing that+assault kills most infantry pretty fast).

-shrouding is useless. I don't know how much of that 25 points we pay for it but it's over the top. If your GK are in shooting range of them shrouding is worthless. The only unit shrouding begins to help out is Psycannon shooting PAGK squads. The single most important unit that could benefit from shrouding doesn't even get it... the dreadnought. Why Dreadnoughts don't receive shrouding is beyond me but it makes zero sense. I can't imagine how helpful this ability would be if a Dreadnought with a las/missile combo could benefit from it.

 

I agree, 'Shrouding' wasn't well executed. They should've made it a Leadership test to shoot them, with penalties for range/number of Grey Knight squads (not models) in proximity. So something like;

 

- At 12", you take the test like any other Leadership check (plus any external modifiers)

- At 24", you take the test at -1 Leadership (not cumulative, plus any external modifiers)

- At 36", you take the test at -2 Leadership (not cumulative, plus any external modifiers)

- Daemons take a further -1 penalty to their Leadership when making the test (however, the worst it can get is -3 Leadership, plus any external modifiers)

 

That would make the effect of 'chanting' seem more realistic, and make up for the failure of 'Aegis' to affect Daemons shooting Grey Knights. It would still shut down long-range sniping like the current version does, but not become completely useless at short-medium range.

 

Its designed around 1 principle, and that's to win by whatever means necessary.

 

Not really. Silent Requiem readily admits his tactics are not foolproof, and if you're playing DH's its not about winning anyway. If you want instant-win play Chaos or Orks ;) .

I play the game for custimization and I liked this team because of the wargear and unique feel, and I don't want to be forced to adhere to the doctrine of LR + PAGK + meltabombs rinse repeat.

 

You can experiment with the DH army list, but it is unfortunately mechanise or die. Foot-slogging forces get outmaneuvered and shot to pieces before they can re-position or engage in combat. Orks and Tyranids can win through using such a strategy via sheer numbers; we're a small elite army that can't even match a 3rd of the model count of a horde list.

GK Landraiders are essential in larger games, because they're your only transport option for Grey Knights, and they supply mobile anti-tank. In smaller games Dreadnoughts with twin-LC+ML are more suitable.

As for the dreadnought, I have a TLLC/MSL dread and I chose not to take him, cause honestly I don't like them. Its a mobile turret and sorta losses the whole point of being a dreadnought, and they look silly. That and it becomes a priority target, and dreadnoughts don't seem to have the life to be priority targets. If I had more games I would have purchased both of them though and taken him as a dedicated anti-vehicle machine. But in a small points game where my opponent fielded very few vehicles would I have honestly gotten my points out of a dedicated vehicle killer? I like the Plasma/CC dread for its fluffyness, and multirole utility. I can play him how I like based on what my opponent ended up taking, hes got just enough punch to hurt vehicles and can still kill infantry effectively and forces you to keep him mobile. This was my philosophy behind these choices.

 

One plasma cannon will not kill much armour (and if people bring AV14 vehicles you have nothing). You have to take the Hellfire-pattern, because it's your only long-range anti-tank without shelling out for Landraiders (which are impractical at smaller point games). IST meltaguns can give you reduancy, but even with Rhinos (foot-slogging they're dead) they're easily intercepted and destroyed. I take two Hellfire-pattern Dreadnoughts at 1,500pts and even then I struggle to kill enemy armour.

 

If you want, you could take a third Dreadnought as plasma cannon+DCCW w/ incinerator, but only after you've gotten two Hellfires to snipe armour with.

 

Why a squad size of 8 PAGK? Is that including Justicar? And if so why go short of squad cap when 1 away?

 

Yes, the 8-man minimum includes the Justicar. It's commonly taken because it's about as costly as a mechanised Tactical squad/Chaos Marine/SoB squad, and thus you achieve somewhat parity in terms of numbers. It's also the squad size you want for a psycannon PAGK squad, as they are still reasonable in combat for a shooting unit (you have the Justicar+5 'fight-worthy' models in addition to the purely shooting psycannon Knights).

 

When you mechanise, 9-10 man is what you wanna aim for, because you'll be expected to flame+assault things when piling out of the Crusader/Landraider.

 

As for the psycannons it doesn't seem that you can purchase enough of them on a GKT group to make it worth your time. Sure they can fire full range but you can only have 2 and that requires the captain to take one. I don't have a modded Captain Model to give him a psycannon so I don't really want to do that and I hate using stuff I don't have models for

 

A Troops squad can only have two, and can only fire on the move at 18" (well, effectively 24" when you take movement into account). In smaller games a 4-man squad of GKT's with dual psycannons is a useful and potent unit.

You can order a bitz pack from GW containing 5 x GKT psycannon arms pretty easily, no converting neccesary. BC's are pretty weak in any case, so replacing the storm bolter for a psycannon is a step up for them (keep the NFW of course).

 

As for the mobile PAGK point my question for all the DH players on this is what good are they running around popping shots when you don't kill anything... Storm Bolters are great and all but the actual PAGK teams ive fielded in every game have so far killed *drum roll* 8 guys. After all the misses, fails to wound, and armor saves they almost never kill anything. Now that is considering I usually only get 8 dice per shooting phase per group since I had been taking 5 man squads with at least 1 heavy weapon, but still that's terrible shooting for a 25 point model. Sadly my PAGK have so far never made their points back. I guess I don't understand trying to play the PAGK as an eldar hit and run unit since they don't seem particularly good at it (what with no transport options.)

 

They're not fast enough to hit and run. What you should do is move sideways and shoot, or walk backwards and shoot. The great thing about storm bolters is that 24" keeps most enemy Troops from assaulting you.

If you want a more aggressive approach, swap the psycannons for incinerators and use Landraiders to mechanise them.

As far as the GM goes you're probably right. I just hate the captain. As a fluffy gamer the idea of a GK Terminator Captain having 1 wound against my opponents 3 wound Cannoness just about brings me to tears. I payed the points for a GM to brace my fragile ego. I have HQ envy. But yeah, I could have gotten two more PAGK for that price and it would have done fine.

 

I think you mean 'effectiveness', not 'fluff' :P . The GM is really suited to 1,500pts+, in lower point games he's simply too costly.

 

Also I can't really tell the general philosophy of your suggestions as some of it is a little conflicted. If you want to keep your PAGK out of assault range (which is odd considering they do fairly well in assault) then how come you're concerned about losing the NFW? And if you like the bolter so much why hate the psycannon, its 1 less shot on the move as a second PAGK but at a much greater chance to wound and at the same range... And it can hurt vehicles.

 

PAGK's are ok in close-combat, but they're not true assault specialists. They rely heavily on doing plenty of damage in the shooting phase (which is why GW gave them 'True Grit', which leans towards taking charges), and then mopping up the remnants in combat.

The loss of the NFW is a big deal, because it makes the pscyannon carrier pretty worthless in close-combat (he punches them a bit at S4 but it's not as scary as his brothers with S6), and for the price you could've had another two Knights, not to mention the two would-be psycannon carriers, all hitting at full power.

 

Unless you mechanise, the overall style of Grey Knights is to chip away at the enemy with storm bolters and psycannons, then finish off the remainder in close-combat. 'True Grit' doesn't care if you're hiding in cover or charging the enemy, so camping in terrain (thus forcing away assault units that don't have frags like Terminators, Orks, Banshees etc) and shooting them to death works to your advantage.

[WAR]

for 65 points a base immolator works nothing else needed (well if you are using the IA 2 FAQ update you don't need anything else).....

 

strength 3 pw are not worth points better off taking Book of St. Lucius and melta bombs.

 

if you buy one model grenades they all have to be given them unless you just gave tehm to the VSS

 

your canoness is really high in points.....at Flying Nun Version (eats lots of act of faith on her own) is cheaper

 

some load outs on Canoness for ideas

 

-the Flying Nun- Book of St Lucius, Cloak of St. Aspira, jump Pack, bolt pistol, Frag grenade, blessed Weapon

 

-shooty Canoness- BoSL, CoSA, Frag, grenade, Melta Bombs, and Bolter/combi weapon

 

-canoness-eviscerator, bolt pistol/inferno pistol, frag, melta bombs, BoSL, CoSA

 

i would advise staying away from inferno pistols because they have such a short range they creat bad habits (a strength 3 model should not being tank hunting unless armed with melta bombs) plus if you kill the tank at half a 6" you will 1) possibly be killed due to the vehicle expolding or 2) be assualted by what was inside said vehile

[ArmouredWing]

Ah, so much sound advice it makes my head hurt!!!!

 

Seriously, as a sisters player with a long history of losses in the begining of 4th ed I've worked through a lot of the errors and mistakes that we've all made on the road to success to the point where I'm fielding a very battle ready roster that is able to deal effectively with most lists out there.

 

That said there's a few odds and end here that I simply can't agree with and in terms of advice I'd say keep an open mind because what's good for one player may not be so good for another.

 

Here's a few pointers from me....

 

Faith points are amazing, not just good, not just great but semi-broken amazing. These things make the sisters a powerhouse.

FP's are amazing but if you're playing someone who's new to sisters make sure they're playing them at the right time. Given the opportunity to use them carte blanche they are indeed broken but when used as they should be (in the right phase, at the right time) they do require some forthought to use. For someone facing a faithfull army if you're not sure ALWAYS check the rules.

 

Price tag. I think the sisters get more bang for the buck than anyone.

Absolutely. 11pts a pop is a steal, especially when compared to the other troop choice available which is the 10pt IST. It's no contest.

 

Immolators are risky business. They have very crappy armor and fulfill a roll the sisters themselves can perform. You can nab a dominion squad for just a little more and they are going to outperform it in every way.

Hmmmm, immolators can be VERY good at what they do and in my current line up my HQ is mounted in one of these for rapid deployment. The general rule of thumb is to keep the TL Hvy Flmrs on them to take advantage of the 12" move and fire. You've got to bear in mind that at the moment (and potentially until the IG codex is released) this is one of the very few vehicles that can move this distance and still fire it's S5 weapon.

There are a couple of things worth bearing in mind with this, firstly ALWAYS take smoke. That cover save can be a real lifesaver, especially when fending off the likes of railguns & lascannons. Secondly, don't hold back, get them as close to enemy infantry ASAP and let rip. The other thing that is worth remembering is that the Hvy Flmr has a low enough AP to negate armour saves from the likes of firewarriors (heh heh heh, somewhat ironic!) and IG infantry as well as preventing any coversaves that they might want to take. Throw in the rerolls to wound and maybe you can start to see why they are such a viable vehicle. Don't discount them, that's the mistake many make, though they soon learn their lesson.

 

Exorcists are finicky beasts. They don't always come through for you but regardless of how they roll they always scare the daylights out of me. Knowing that the thing can pump out six shots of AP1 missiles makes these things golden.

Very true and that's why if you're fielding exorcists always try and fit 2 into the list. That way you've got a means to even out the bad rolling because it will happen. The other thing I'd advise is against the use of HK's. Yes they do give you an additional weapon to lose in the event of a second weapon destroyed roll but the pay off isn't so great. If you want a second weapon then go for a storm bolter, it may not seem as usefull but it's a defnsive weapon and will potentially keep the exorcist in the game long enough to tank shock the enemy or contest an objective.

 

I can tell you now that giving a Rosarius (4+inv) to a Canoness is mostly a waste of points, this is because by passing a leadership test the Canoness can gain an inv save equal to her armour save which can make her really hard to kill. I also find that a Mantle of Ophelia is a must have (for me at least) as it stops you from suffering instant death once in the game. Mark my words on this when you take it and it doesn't get any use, it feels like wasted points for sure, but it's the day that you leave it behind and your Canoness fails that 2+inv that makes you wish you had taken it.

Yes, the Mantle... is a must but I'd disagree with the view of the rosarius. As I've mentioned previously, using faith takes forthought and the number of times I've forgotten to give a jump canoness SoTM only to have her vaporised in the following shooting phase, well, even now it slips my mind in the heat of battle. Yes, a rosarius is an expensive point sink but the other way to look at it is it's a definite Inv save (remember there's still a chance that SoTM could fail) for a valuable part of the army.

 

...taking an all footslogging SOB army can be fun, but the reality is that SOB perform best when they can engage the enemy at ranges under 12". This means that if you are footslogging, the enemy will be able to assault you before you make it into that magic range and suddenly all you have is a bunch of power armoured guardsmen stuck in combat. Sisters tend to perform very well in a Mechanized build, which is typically every unit mounted in a transport apart from exorcists so that you can get into the magic range quickly and without fear of being assaulted before you have fired a shot.

This is something that I do disagree with. My current 1500pt list is predominantly footsloggers (4 squads of 14) with 3 exorcist support and an HQ mounted in an immolator and with this list I've never had so much success. I can see the appeal of a mech list, I ran one the other weekend for a few games and didn't do too badly, but for me the weight of numbers equals 2 things, weight of fire and weight of saves. The 'Run' rule has changed the playing field for footsloggers considerably. Alright, there is the argument that it isn't a definite amount of distance they can travel but those 4 extra bodies in comparison to the same points in a rhino are very much more survivable than the armour of a rhino. Additionally it's worth remembering that with a squad of 14 you've got to roll double 6 to fail your faith roll for DG (potentially 28 rapid fire shots for a standard loadout). The other thing to consider is how a squad of 14 sisters looks on the table. In CC there's only a couple of units that still instill fear into me, all others will have to expend valuable time and effort to whittle such a large squad down, especially taking into account the 3+ armour save.

The only thing I would say is that on foot you've got to have a much better judgement of range and you've got to try and work out how far you NEED to move to ensure rapid fire in the next turn without being assaulted in the current turn.

 

sister squads (any size) should take the heavy flamer ,meltagun and frag grenades shoot them at close range

Again this is something I don't agree on. A sisters unit geared out in this way is useful but doesn't maximise what they are good at (Jack of all trades, master of none!). I'd have to advise that this loadout is for use where the unit is being used in isolation of the rest of the army. What you need to do is consider how the unit is intended to perform WITH the rest of your list. So, pick a battlefield role, e.g. anti-infantry or anti-armour, and then consider how you're going to support that unit when they face something they can't deal with. By doing this you'll be able to maximise your fire on particular enemy units (2 melta shots on armour, 2 Flmr templates on infantry) without sacrificing the ability of the 'other' weapon in the squad (for instance, firing a single melta on armour and losing the opportunity to fire your Hvy Flmr). With templates doubling up in 5th ed is essential and by doing this you can expect to reduce a sizable infantry unit right down to the point where it's suicide to assault but suicide to stay in firing range.

As for Frag grenades, leave them at home for you standard squads. If a unit is in assault range then they are in rapid fire range and with the better BS and bolter S you'd be a fool to consider charging an enemy unit as apposed to firing on them.

 

for 65 points a base immolator works nothing else needed

Hmmm, if this was refering to an exorcist I'd be tempted to agree (although I equip EVERYTHING with searchlights) but as I've mentioned before you need smoke as a minimum and it is worth considering extra armour as well.

 

strength 3 pw are not worth points better off taking Book of St. Lucius and melta bombs.

Yep, Battle Sister squads do need some form of anti-armour CC weapons, dreadnoght etc are still a problem for sister squads. Melta bombs are an option but personally I prefer an eviscerator as you can use this against infantry as well.

BoSL is essential for your basic squads at the very least.

 

i would advise staying away from inferno pistols because they have such a short range they creat bad habits (a strength 3 model should not being tank hunting unless armed with melta bombs) plus if you kill the tank at half a 6" you will 1) possibly be killed due to the vehicle expolding or 2) be assualted by what was inside said vehile

IP's are a good option for a jump canoness but I always gear her up for multi tasking so IP & Melta bombs for the tanks, IP & BW for characters. For all but the hardiest of vehicles/characters this is a pretty formidable loadout and will put the fear of the emperor into all but the most foolhardy opponents.

 

At the end of the day it takes time and practice to get to grips with any army and, perhaps most importantly, what works for one player MAY not work for all. There's no silver bullet here, you'll have to find the list that works for you through a lot of trial, error and losses, but when you come out the other side it's worth the slog.

[Prathios]

Its a marvelous tactica and has tons of great things in it but as a player who enjoys fluff and personalization I cannot follow it to the letter.

 

Ah, Prathios...I too, your noble brother, feel your pain and know your woes...

 

There is a lot of the article that I not only ignore, but actually do some things entirely opposite. IE: I typically use 0 PAGK until I start pushing 2K. Also, Assasins and shooty =][= are a staple in my list. It's purely for the fluff - I love them.

 

What I found it really did for me was help me to step back and look at what I wanted to play with, and determine how it was going to interact with the rest of my army and the opponents I face off against. For that it was invaluable.

 

So don't feel bad...and don't look at WW from a tactical standpoint, think about the meta game and play what you want to play - it will help a bunch.

 

This is sound advice Iapetus. I shall endeavor to approach it from this angle.

 

I disagree entirely (if anything they're slightly undercosted). However, you're right in saying 'take a big squad or don't bother'. 5-7 man squads will get wiped out too easily, 8-man is the smallest you should go (and thats only as a concession for taking dual psycannon, due to the points cost the weapons incur). If you're mechanising, 10-man with dual incinerator is the way to go (charging out of a Crusader/Landraider and unleashing that+assault kills most infantry pretty fast).

 

Wait a tic... 10 man??? I thought 9 was the squad cap including the justicar... are you putting a BC in there? I must admit the LRC + Incinterator squad is something that has appealed to me since I played my first game. I love incinerators. And I love the surviveability the Crusader gives them by adding frag grenades and being a massive target itself. Incinerator squads in LRC's are shock and awe defined.

 

You can experiment with the DH army list, but it is unfortunately mechanise or die. Foot-slogging forces get outmaneuvered and shot to pieces before they can re-position or engage in combat. Orks and Tyranids can win through using such a strategy via sheer numbers; we're a small elite army that can't even match a 3rd of the model count of a horde list.

GK Landraiders are essential in larger games, because they're your only transport option for Grey Knights, and they supply mobile anti-tank. In smaller games Dreadnoughts with twin-LC+ML are more suitable.

 

Well I don't actually doubt this, however I tend to lean way more towards an =I= list. This was my first pure GK list and I'll do it again sometime but I can already tell you I'd rather have a mixed force. The options that storm troopers open up and the screening they can do for the GK is invaluable. The storm troopers have enough of a threat attatched that they can draw fire for your more expensive units and if they are ignored they can quickly show the error of this way of thinking. 14 RP shots of Hellgun and 5 Plasma shots is nothing to scoff at, I dare say that you will get a higher kill tally off of this than you can a full 9 man PAGK. Especially against MEQ, those plasma rounds are golden. And my IST almost always mechanize unless I can't afford the points. (on that note I demand cheaper Rhino's!!!!)

 

I think you mean 'effectiveness', not 'fluff' rolleyes.gif . The GM is really suited to 1,500pts+, in lower point games he's simply too costly.

 

Well I meant fluff from the standpoint of a GKGM being more true to how it should be fluff wise than the BC, BC should be a 4 wound minimum with WS 6, and the fact its a 1W model makes me wonder what they were thinking... I mean ok so you want to give us a cheap HQ, thats fine allow justicars to lead the battle they do independant actions all the time so precedent is set. You wanna take terminators? Then spend the points for a BC who should be a 150 model at the minimum. I think taking the GM is something I'm just gonna have to fanboy out on regardless of how costly he is... I can't help myself :D

 

Thank you very much for your reply honorable Reclusiarch, your comments were most helpful and welcome.

 

FP's are amazing but if you're playing someone who's new to sisters make sure they're playing them at the right time. Given the opportunity to use them carte blanche they are indeed broken but when used as they should be (in the right phase, at the right time) they do require some forthought to use. For someone facing a faithfull army if you're not sure ALWAYS check the rules.

 

Ok I have some questions on this then, since I don't have the WH codex and have to look at it when Crippled Pig brings it over I'm a little fuzzy on how they work. He gets to use them basically when he wants doesn't he? He can use divine guidance during the shooting phase before declaring a target? Seems pretty simple to me. Am I mistaken? What are the limitations?

 

I can't really debate you on any points until I have more experience with/against the WH ( i much prefer to ally with the good sisters than fight them as it fits the fluff a lot more, though Karamozov is crazy enough to accuse Grey Knights of heresy :)) but I think it sounds like you have a level headed and grounded view of playing the sisters.

 

It also appears there are so very different viewpoints on mechanization or not, I love mechanized forces since i focused on military history in school but there is a huge appeal to an army of 100 sisters striding across the field. They are too hard to kill for this strategy not to be effective. The only force that I can think of just flat standing against that is the necrons.

 

Thank you for your reply ArmouredWing I think CP will get some good use out of your advice. And thank you as well War009 you have really got my strategy sense tingling :)

[ArmouredWing]

FP's are amazing but if you're playing someone who's new to sisters make sure they're playing them at the right time. Given the opportunity to use them carte blanche they are indeed broken but when used as they should be (in the right phase, at the right time) they do require some forthought to use. For someone facing a faithfull army if you're not sure ALWAYS check the rules.

 

Ok I have some questions on this then, since I don't have the WH codex and have to look at it when Crippled Pig brings it over I'm a little fuzzy on how they work. He gets to use them basically when he wants doesn't he? He can use divine guidance during the shooting phase before declaring a target? Seems pretty simple to me. Am I mistaken? What are the limitations?

Yeah, I did wonder if you guys had missed the smallprint regarding the AoF, although you're not on your own.

 

Ok, We'll start with 'Divine Guidance'. This is perhaps the easiest of the AoF because of the rules regarding how you trigger it. The key point to DG is that you can use it in either the shooting or assault phase after you've rolled to hit but BEFORE you roll to wound. This is the AoF that needs the least amount of planning because you can see how many hit's you've achieved before you decide to use it, thus enabling you to make a rough assessment of how the odds weigh in your favour for rolling 6's. So for example you roll 18/28 hits against a termie unit it's a good bet that you'll get a couple of 6's (statistically should be 3 but who can tell?) which will cut straight through the armour. Not a lot of pre-planning involved and the more successful hit the better (hence why DG is such a good choice if it is combined with flamer templates in 5th ed, stacking up the auto hits). The other thing to remember is that DG can work to a big advantage against lightly armoured vehicles due to the +1 to the damage table (Good use for firing into the rear of many vehicles with S4 bolters!).

 

Next is 'Spirit of the Martyr'. This is the one that's possibly the AoF that is most mis-used by rookies because of skimming over the rules. With SotM you have to choose who to roll for at the begining of either your opponents shooting phase or at the begining of either players assault phase. So, take a moment to consider this. At the begining of your opponents shooting phase, before they have announced any shooting, you have to try and predict who is going to be targetted and then roll for the AoF. This can mean you might waste FP's on units which aren't shot at because they are now invulnerable. It's a tricky one to judge but there are some common targets which benefit from SotM, the canoness being one of them.

For the assault phase SotM is a little less tricky but can still catch you out. Again it's triggered at the begining of either players assault phase, in your own it's a fairly certain bet. You know who you're going to go for and if they've got PF's, PW's etc that will require an inv save to work against them. However, in the opponents turn it still isn't foolproof and if 2 squads are close together, 1 having SotM, it can work against you when facing an assault from a unit which hasn't fired (and so isn't locked into assaulting a specific unit). The trick here is to try and turn one unit into 'bait', make sure the other unit is outside assault range and then use SotM knowing which is going to be assaulted. This in itself is not an easy task but it is a method which works to ensure that your faith isn't wasted unnecessarily.

 

'The Passion' is another which is fairly straight forward to use and is activated in either players assault phase prior to rolling to hit. This can give a sister unit the chance to reduce the number of wounds an enemy unit can inflict when in CC by boosting their I and letting them go either first or at the same time.

 

'Hand of the Emperor' again is straight forward to use (in either players assault phase prior to rolling to hit) but in 5th ed it's become a real boon for the sisters if they are within assault range of non-walker vehicles which are not LR's or Monoliths. Finally sisters have the ability to kill tanks in CC without any anti-armour specific weaponary, additionally it can also mean that a unit equipped with an eviscerator can instant kill marines (good against characters) and has a chance of taking out even the heaviest armour.

 

The final AoF that is rarely used but shouldn't be forgotten is 'Light of the Emperor'. To use this you must do so at the begining of the movement phase and so, again, this can require some forward planning as to which units may require this. It should be noted that if you use a BoSL you'll rarely have to consider using this although it does still give you the opportunity to rally a falling back unit even if they are below 50% squad strength.

 

So as you can see out of the 5 Acts, 3 of them must be triggered at specific times. Yes, they are still potent in their benefits but they do lose some of the awe knowing that, e.g. you cannot use 'Light of the Emperor' in an assault phase or SotM in the middle of a shooting phase.

 

Like I said, if you're unsure or unfamiliar, check the rules (and that goes for if your opponent needs a high or low roll as well).

 

I can't really debate you on any points until I have more experience with/against the WH ( i much prefer to ally with the good sisters than fight them as it fits the fluff a lot more, though Karamozov is crazy enough to accuse Grey Knights of heresy :P) but I think it sounds like you have a level headed and grounded view of playing the sisters.

 

It also appears there are so very different viewpoints on mechanization or not, I love mechanized forces since i focused on military history in school but there is a huge appeal to an army of 100 sisters striding across the field. They are too hard to kill for this strategy not to be effective. The only force that I can think of just flat standing against that is the necrons.

For me sisters are an occupation force and as such I like to field them in larger, harder to kill, squads. They lack any obvious means of rapid deployment and also lack any specialist squads (e.g. scouts, infiltrators etc) which can sneak into the battlefield before the game starts or can outflank during the game. They play their cards for all to see and their only means of springing surprises is by means of their AoF. Mech sisters is a very viable force, maybe easier to handle in general terms but they do suffer from their lower numbers when mounted and they also suffer from the higher cost of transports in the game (a basic rhino being equivalent to more than 4 sisters on the ground).

 

They aren't a force for those who want an easy ride but I wouldn't swap them for anything at the moment and I think it's fair to say that I'm getting more out of playing them now than I've ever had.

[Prathios]

I really appreciate that explanation AW. I wondered if I was missing something. Especially spirit of the martyr because it seemed a little odd you could just get free faith points every time one of your faith generating units died. You have to activate it before the character is even attacked making it much more strategic. I looked through the FAQ section repeatedly for a detailed explanation of faith power usage and I think if someone put up something of that nature it would help a great number of people.

 

Can groups of sisters not be used to flank with reserve rules? I think that if they could do this it would allow you to surround and overwhelm your opposition. Either way I think the occupation force approach has a great deal of merit.

 

Oh and one last question on acts of faith, in a general game per 500 points how many AoF do you generally get to make? Is 7-10 a bunch in a small game like 750 or about average?

 

Thanks again for your help AW.

[Verythrax Draconis]

Oh and one last question on acts of faith, in a general game per 500 points how many AoF do you generally get to make? Is 7-10 a bunch in a small game like 750 or about average?

 

It's a LOT. I'm usually able to get around 7 at 1500 pts (at the start of match, at least - any faithful unit that dies give back their faith point)

[ArmouredWing]

I really appreciate that explanation AW. I wondered if I was missing something. Especially spirit of the martyr because it seemed a little odd you could just get free faith points every time one of your faith generating units died. You have to activate it before the character is even attacked making it much more strategic. I looked through the FAQ section repeatedly for a detailed explanation of faith power usage and I think if someone put up something of that nature it would help a great number of people.

 

Can groups of sisters not be used to flank with reserve rules? I think that if they could do this it would allow you to surround and overwhelm your opposition. Either way I think the occupation force approach has a great deal of merit.

 

Oh and one last question on acts of faith, in a general game per 500 points how many AoF do you generally get to make? Is 7-10 a bunch in a small game like 750 or about average?

 

Thanks again for your help AW.

No problem.

 

Just looking at your post here there is a difference between 'Spirit of the Martyr' (which is an act of faith that you have to roll for) and 'Martyrdom' which is a part of the adeptus sororitas special rule and does indeed replenish the faith pool when the last faithful model in the unit is killed.

2 things to watch out for here. Some units are faithful because they have a faithful model in them (e.g. a battle sisters, dominions & retributers are only faithful if you pay for the Veteran who is the faithful unit member), some units are faithful throughout the unit (e.g. Seraphim & Celestians) and some can never be faithful (repentia do not have the adeptus sororitas special rule). In the case of Faithful units they remain faithful until the last faithful model is removed, so for Seraphim & Celestians you've got to kill the entire squad to get a FP back into your faith pool but they can use faith throughout the game to the last woman standing. In the case of battle sisters, dominions & retributers you get a FP if the Veteran is killed HOWEVER that unit is no longer counted as being a faithful unit and will no longer be able to benefit from the use of faith points.

 

It's a double edged sword but it can also give you the opportunity to try and 'Kenny' (popular phrase for SoB players, south park reference) the vet to get a FP back for use with another unit that is in more need, hence why it can often be the case that a ret veteran will be killed off to give the point to a squad in the front.

 

In a standard 1500pt game I'll look at having at least 7 FP's at the start of the game and by the end of the game I'd say I'll have used all of them plus, maybe a couple more obtained through martyrdom. So that'd probably work out at about 1.3FP's per turn average? Something like that anyway.

[CrippledPig]

Cool, thanks for the info ArmouredWing. When I first read the codex, the AoF's were a little confusing to understand, that is, until I played a few rounds. So I'm glad I used them in the right phases, because there are moments where I feel like they are a little broken. Especially with how awesome "Divine Guidence" and "Hand of the Emperor is". And thanks for spelling out "Spirit of the Martyr", because I stayed away from it since I did not understand it too well... or it seemed to be OP in my mind.

[WAR]

sister squads (any size) should take the heavy flamer ,meltagun and frag grenades shoot them at close range

 

Again this is something I don't agree on. A sisters unit geared out in this way is useful but doesn't maximise what they are good at (Jack of all trades, master of none!). I'd have to advise that this loadout is for use where the unit is being used in isolation of the rest of the army. What you need to do is consider how the unit is intended to perform WITH the rest of your list. So, pick a battlefield role, e.g. anti-infantry or anti-armour, and then consider how you're going to support that unit when they face something they can't deal with. By doing this you'll be able to maximise your fire on particular enemy units (2 melta shots on armour, 2 Flmr templates on infantry) without sacrificing the ability of the 'other' weapon in the squad (for instance, firing a single melta on armour and losing the opportunity to fire your Hvy Flmr). With templates doubling up in 5th ed is essential and by doing this you can expect to reduce a sizable infantry unit right down to the point where it's suicide to assault but suicide to stay in firing range.

As for Frag grenades, leave them at home for you standard squads. If a unit is in assault range then they are in rapid fire range and with the better BS and bolter S you'd be a fool to consider charging an enemy unit as apposed to firing on them.

 

I have tried this in 4th edition and the end result was always the same leman russ facing a flamer guns squad and igurad facing meltaguns.....when it does work it is great but easily countered

 

frags always worth taking I would rather charge a squad of bezerkers in cover and simo them than let them charge me

 

for 65 points a base immolator works nothing else needed

 

Hmmm, if this was refering to an exorcist I'd be tempted to agree (although I equip EVERYTHING with searchlights) but as I've mentioned before you need smoke as a minimum and it is worth considering extra armour as well.

 

I was referring to the Imperial armour update which has smoke and searchlight standard (now almost a must)

 

strength 3 pw are not worth points better off taking Book of St. Lucius and melta bombs.

 

Yep, Battle Sister squads do need some form of anti-armour CC weapons, dreadnoght etc are still a problem for sister squads. Melta bombs are an option but personally I prefer an eviscerator as you can use this against infantry as well.

BoSL is essential for your basic squads at the very least.

 

but with the eviscerator you lose the bolter

 

i would advise staying away from inferno pistols because they have such a short range they creat bad habits (a strength 3 model should not being tank hunting unless armed with melta bombs) plus if you kill the tank at half a 6" you will 1) possibly be killed due to the vehicle expolding or 2) be assualted by what was inside said vehile

[qoute]IP's are a good option for a jump canoness but I always gear her up for multi tasking so IP & Melta bombs for the tanks, IP & BW for characters. For all but the hardiest of vehicles/characters this is a pretty formidable loadout and will put the fear of the emperor into all but the most foolhardy opponents.

 

I personaly am not a fan of flying nun ( she is awesome but sucks 75% of your faith up) but I agree with the IP on her, I chose to take a bolt pistol to save points but I am fielding a shoot Canoness right now with no melee weapons

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Wait a tic... 10 man??? I thought 9 was the squad cap including the justicar... are you putting a BC in there? I must admit the LRC + Incinterator squad is something that has appealed to me since I played my first game. I love incinerators. And I love the surviveability the Crusader gives them by adding frag grenades and being a massive target itself. Incinerator squads in LRC's are shock and awe defined.

 

Just assume whenever I say 'squad size X', it includes the Justicar ;). He's a mandatory part of the unit, so no point singling him out (I also rarely give him extra wargear, targeter is about all I bother with for shooty units).

Yes, the Landraider+dual incinerator combo is pretty brutal. I would advise against taking more than 1 Crusader however, as you will suffer against MC's and tanks (one multi-melta per tank isn't really enough). Save your 1 Crusader for transporting the GM+retinue, as they'll derive the most benefit from free frags (as they're an assault unit, while the PAGK are really a shooty unit with decent CC stats).

 

Well I don't actually doubt this, however I tend to lean way more towards an =I= list. This was my first pure GK list and I'll do it again sometime but I can already tell you I'd rather have a mixed force.

 

Oh absolutely. I love my Malleus Lord+shooty retinue, Death-Cult+Eversor and of course the ever understimated IST's. Pure GK is something you should only attempt if you have the money and patience :ermm: expect to put a lot of effort into making the army look good, then watch it get taken apart by more powerful armies (Nob Bikers, Oblit spam etc).

 

The options that storm troopers open up and the screening they can do for the GK is invaluable. The storm troopers have enough of a threat attatched that they can draw fire for your more expensive units and if they are ignored they can quickly show the error of this way of thinking. 14 RP shots of Hellgun and 5 Plasma shots is nothing to scoff at, I dare say that you will get a higher kill tally off of this than you can a full 9 man PAGK. Especially against MEQ, those plasma rounds are golden. And my IST almost always mechanize unless I can't afford the points. (on that note I demand cheaper Rhino's!!!!)

 

Well yeah, IST's are basically there to supply plasma (SoB can supply meltagun just as easily, not to mention having power armour, bolters, heavy flamers and generating 'Stubborn' bubbles). I would advise against plasma pistols on your IST squads; you're paying 25pts for it (including the cost of the Veteran). The two squad plasma guns are just fine.

As for cheaper Rhinos, check out the Imperial Armour 2 Update. Just google it, it has updated points costs and options for Inquisition vehicles. Remember though that it is Forge World, so ask your opponent first if they're ok with that (it's a good idea to print out the relevant pages and take them along to your games).

Well I meant fluff from the standpoint of a GKGM being more true to how it should be fluff wise than the BC, BC should be a 4 wound minimum with WS 6, and the fact its a 1W model makes me wonder what they were thinking... I mean ok so you want to give us a cheap HQ, thats fine allow justicars to lead the battle they do independant actions all the time so precedent is set.

 

4 wounds is excessive, 2 wounds would be fine. I think the BC is best left at WS5, but the GM definately needs a boost to WS6 (he's probably more skilled in combat than most Chapter Masters anyway, considering what he faces on a daily basis).

Justicars are like Sergeants, they lead squads not armies. The reason GW made the BC so weak (and yet so cheap) is so you can unlock Grey Knight vehicles as Heavy Support without having to take a monster HQ character.

You wanna take terminators? Then spend the points for a BC who should be a 150 model at the minimum. I think taking the GM is something I'm just gonna have to fanboy out on regardless of how costly he is... I can't help myself tongue.gif

 

The GM is actually a very economical assault HQ; Biker Bosses, SM Captains, Canonesess, Daemon Princes etc all retail for about 150pts if not more. When you consider he's a Terminator-armoured psyker with a S6 force weapon and 5 attacks on the charge (not to mention the entire page of GK special rules he has), he's probably about the right price. Bump him to WS6 and make him 150pts basic, I reckon that will be fine.

The issue that is more army-wide is that you don't have the points to spend on a GM+retinue at less than 1,500. A BC is more economicaly because his squad in HQ won't cost more than 280 normally, and he can be as cheap as 91 (always take a psycannon on him). With the points saved you can focus on bulking up your Troops squads (believe me, you can never have enough PAGK on the table, they're that good).

 

Thank you very much for your reply honorable Reclusiarch, your comments were most helpful and welcome.

 

Not a problem. I'm actually going over in my head many of the same issues you're talking about here, as I gear up to my 2,500pt strikeforce (my gaming group is having an Apoc-style battle soonish).

[number6]

Coming to this conversation a bit late (I've hardly had any online time for a week, and will have even less in the coming days), what really stuck out to me, Prathios, was your dismissal of a GK tactica ("Way of the water warrior") because it felt too restrictive to you. And yet your posts about your army build are just as prescriptive and restrictive. E.g.,

 

* You won't use TLLC/ML dreads

* You won't put a psycannon on your GK Hero (or even GKTs at all)

* You almost entirely dismiss the feasibility of a BC vs a GM, even in small points games

* etc., etc.

 

I feel that it is disingenuous of you to complain about how restrictive the DH army list is when you are actively painting yourself into your own corner. I'm not saying you must agree to everything anyone offers you as advice, but I get the feeling that you like what you like and just want to know how to make that work.

 

Speaking for myself, I can only tell you what works for me, and why I think that it might work out well for you, too. That's all anybody here can do.

 

So, speaking only for myself and my experience: I don't know how I could make your particular army list "work" over the long haul. I think your current list-building strategy doesn't add up to a coherent whole. I could very well be quite wrong about this! I'm not you, and what works for me may not suit your playstyle at all. But, assuming that your initial observations and subsequent request for advice is sincere, here's my take on what you've so far presented.

 

Firstly, land raiders are not required to make a competitive DH list. I've only been using them for about a year now. Over 90% of my games are still played without land raiders at all. I think they're fun diversion, and I thoroughly enjoy the new dimension they add to my armies, but, ultimately, they're not what drew me to the army. I like GKs, lots of GKs, and I want to field as many as I can most of the time. Land raiders interfere with that.

 

But without land raiders, the only viable anti-armour options in a pure DH codex are dreadnoughts and melta-toting ISTs. This means that your dreads really should all have a TLLC, mandatory. Our assault cannon stinks, a multi-melta on a dread is only useful if you can drop pod a dread in for that all-important first shot (and we can't), and a plasma cannon is primarily an anti-infantry weapon, and anti-infantry is a role that GKs excel at. You don't need a dread to help you out there. I have a strong preference to match a ML to the TLLC because, again, anti-armour is what GKs don't do while anti-infantry they can handle. A dread just doesn't have enough attacks to be important. I use a DCCW instead of a ML only when I need to save 10 pts.

 

I feel that every list needs at least 3 solid anti-armour solutions in today's games. More are better. Thus I feel that you need some combination of mounted melta ISTs and dreads, at least 3 total (more if you can afford it). Psycannons don't really cut it. They can come in handy sometimes, but they're not dependable. They are primarily anti-infantry weapons too that happen to be somewhat handy on weak transports, but that's an added benefit, not something you should count on.

 

If you cover your anti-armour needs sufficiently, you can easily afford to footslog multiple large (8-10 models) PAGK units. I think one unit of PAGKs a pair of psycannons is a great thing. So much of the current game is about claiming objectives, and you can deploy a big unit with psycannons on your home objective and just dare people to come and take it from them, all the while raining psycannon death downrange. I love this unit. But more psycannons than that ... I question. You need to have units capable of dishing out maximum pain in all phases of the game. Psycannons only help when you have a static unit that isn't going to see much close combat. So most GK units should go vanilla, because you need to threaten the enemy when you move, when you shoot, and when you initiate or receive an assault. The home-base GKs with psycannons are great for holding and defending the fort, but a unit like that is not as efficient in every game phase as their vanilla counterparts. Take a couple of 8+ model vanilla Troops out for a spin, work them in concert, and then see if you think stormbolter dakka is wimpy! You'll be wiping out exposed enemy infantry units every turn and cleaning up the depleted survivors with quick assaults at very little risk to you.

 

The shrouding is awesome for this, as on average, about half of all shooting is outright nullified at GKs around that magical 30" mark. That's right on the cusp of the GK threat bubble (6" move, 24" stormbolter range). I don't think this is a coincidence.

 

And in general, regarding the issues you raised about GK list fragility due to points expense and streaky dice...

 

As an elite army, GKs are definitely more affected by streaky dice then hordes like Orks, Tyrandis, or Imperial Guard. A seriously bad run of dice can end a game in a hurry. Of course, a seriously good run of dice can turn your army into an unstoppable machine!

 

For consistent success with GKs, I think you need the following:

 

* Redundancy. GKs are the core of your list, so take multiples. Two units, even in small engagements like 1000 pts, are often not enough. This is also why you never ever take just one dreadnought or land raider. You need multiples in order to help mitigate bad luck.

 

* Resilience. I'm not talking about AV 14 here. Land raiders are tough, but not so much so that they guarantee wins. They're still 1-wound models capable of being destroyed right from turn 1. And they absorb so many resources that your list can suffer miserably with their loss! No, I'm talking about your army core again: PAGKs. Take big units that can soak up several wounds and still keep on kicking. 8-10 models is ideal. Smaller than that, and you better have a good reason. (Redundancy was a good enough reason for my RTT 1500 pt list that I allowed myself 2 squads of just 7 models each....)

 

* Mutual Support. This is tactics. Keep your force together whenever you can. Try and deploy so that you can focus all of your army on just one small part of your enemy. Attack one unit, one small piece, at a time until it is gone, then move on to the next. If you do this, than your losses won't matter so much because you will always be overwhelming the enemy, you will always be in a position to reinforce a weak point, and you will always be able to project the most power.

 

Do these three things, and dice -- while still a factor -- will loosen its stranglehold.

 

I think that's enough out of me for now....

[Prathios]

Coming to this conversation a bit late (I've hardly had any online time for a week, and will have even less in the coming days), what really stuck out to me, Prathios, was your dismissal of a GK tactica ("Way of the water warrior") because it felt too restrictive to you. And yet your posts about your army build are just as prescriptive and restrictive. E.g.,

 

* You won't use TLLC/ML dreads

* You won't put a psycannon on your GK Hero (or even GKTs at all)

* You almost entirely dismiss the feasibility of a BC vs a GM, even in small points games

* etc., etc.

 

I feel that it is disingenuous of you to complain about how restrictive the DH army list is when you are actively painting yourself into your own corner. I'm not saying you must agree to everything anyone offers you as advice, but I get the feeling that you like what you like and just want to know how to make that work.

 

Speaking for myself, I can only tell you what works for me, and why I think that it might work out well for you, too. That's all anybody here can do.

 

So, speaking only for myself and my experience: I don't know how I could make your particular army list "work" over the long haul. I think your current list-building strategy doesn't add up to a coherent whole. I could very well be quite wrong about this! I'm not you, and what works for me may not suit your playstyle at all. But, assuming that your initial observations and subsequent request for advice is sincere, here's my take on what you've so far presented.

 

:lol: that pretty much sums up this first section. I'm not being disingenuous at all. I'm questioning viability, this is something every player has to do as they grow. I'm not refusing, I'm hesitating and unhappy to be forced down a path I don't want to take. And tell me that Water Warrior despite its fantastic advice isn't restrictive in its builds. I appreciate it as much as the next guy but first its a pure GK army which isn't what I thought this team was about, I could have sword it was DH and not GK. And I'm must say I'm a little hurt by this berating for it. But your bullets are built around a misconception. I do not refuse to use TLLC/ML and have fielded one more games than not. I just don't like to, because I feel that its very unfluffy, what a waste of a heroic warrior of the imperium to basically do the job of a servitor, stand and shoot mindlessly like a turret. I will put a Psycannon on my hero when i get the model for it. I hesitate to pay 10 dollars in shipping though for a single psycannon arm that im forced to buy a pack on. But I'll break down and do it at some point. For now though I don't want to use it if I can't physically represent it. And it feels like you didn't even read what I said on the BC vs GM. I said I hate having a 1W hero for fluff reasons. Is that a sin? Is it a sin to have read close to sixty BL books before ever buying one model and hoping and praying that I can have something even remotely fluffy? I think its a fair complaint to make that our dex deviates a good bit from the fluff on something like this. But I've taken the BC more games than the GM cause I can't squeeze the points in. I even openly admited that a BC with two GKT were a better choice, how can you have ignored that statement? So please don't berate me for making inquiry and explaining my rational. I think its essential to a conversation that both sides know where the other comes from. Please give me a fraction of a little bit of credit, I think I've been fair with you.

 

As for the rest of this post it was very helpful, and I think I'll try some of what you offer. I'm glad to see that you can get by without having to abuse LR spam. And I can use IST/Rhino/Melta combos religiously. I can field two squads with meltas and a rhino each and one hellfire Dread in any game I choose so it seems I can easily replace the LR when I want more models/wounds. The question I would have for you is what do you think of using the IST as a workhorse squad to count as my main troop choice while using 1 or 2 squads of PAGK as more of my elite force. I was considering trying a few games of inserting via deep strike or LRC a incinerator PAGK squad.

 

I think I can get the most use out of your advice though in a pure GK list which I suppose is what I needed more help with anyway. Though I can't really afford to do pure GK against my regular Tau opponent. I HAVE to have a Cally. She earns MVP every game for killing crisis suits or broadsides. This can't be replaced. Am I wrong to say this? Seems like a no-brainer.

 

Thank you for your help on the matter six, but please don't start your post with the whompin stick, it makes it difficult for me to keep receptive of the rest of your points. If you feel you must chastise at least wait for the end of the post after I've assimilated the tasty bits.

[number6]

Firstly, I am extremely sorry to have offended you. I think I did miss the full breadth of your comments in my eagerness to get involved. I promise that no disrespect was intended. What I was commenting on, primarily, was what appeared to me a conflict between what you said you desired at the top and what I read following that.

 

I was wrong.

 

Secondly, let me add that my advice-oriented commentary -- here and elsewhere -- is always based purely on my analysis of 40K as a game and a game only. Fluff justifications are not part of what I consider in my comments, as in my judgment, most people that ask for advice are more interested in trying to win their games than in trying to keep within their established fluff ideas.

 

That said, justifying your army list choices based on fluff is awesome! Definitely stick with what you feel makes your army more true to the fluff you love. I myself had something of a letdown when I realized that GKs, GKTs, and even the mighty GM fall far short of the fluff presented in just the game codex, let alone ancillary fluff supplied by GW and Black Library. I finally made my peace with the idea that fluff isn't the game, and the game isn't fluffy. They're related, but in the end I had to accept that they're not equivalent. We wouldn't get fun games if the rules for GKs actually matched up to what we read about! ^_^ So every attempt made to preserve fluff in army lists is to be commended. It just isn't something I feel I can legitimately include in tactical advice.

 

You asked one question: Can ISTs be the backbone ("workhorse" was your term) of your army? My answer: YES! Absolutely! I don't personally enjoy using them, and sold them off several years ago in favor of more GKs. But they are wonderful models, excellent fluff, and extremely capable on the tabletop. 5th edition has only expanded the utility of these guys, giving us more tactically viable builds than just the melta-gunner/Rhino and and plasma-gunner/Chimera builds. Using ISTs as your core and then PAGKs as "elites" is, in actuality, more fluffy than an entire army of GKs. It will work well in games, too, though a totally comprehensive "water warrior"/reactive playstyle for the army won't be possible. You'll have to mix your reactivity in with an army that will have a different elemental bent to it.

[DEMOLISHER]

Firstly, I am extremely sorry to have offended you...

And thus number6 proves he is an excellent fellow. :D

 

Prathios, I do not like using a TLLC/ML Dred either.

Got too have a Dred CCW with Incemerator on it.

I've been using the Multimelta as of late and I like the results so far.

Now I'm only using GK units, mostly based on fluff.

If your gonna use the non-GK units you can have a far more vaired army

and fluff it up too boot! ^_^

[Prathios]

Firstly, I am extremely sorry to have offended you. I think I did miss the full breadth of your comments in my eagerness to get involved. I promise that no disrespect was intended. What I was commenting on, primarily, was what appeared to me a conflict between what you said you desired at the top and what I read following that.

 

I was wrong.

 

Secondly, let me add that my advice-oriented commentary -- here and elsewhere -- is always based purely on my analysis of 40K as a game and a game only. Fluff justifications are not part of what I consider in my comments, as in my judgment, most people that ask for advice are more interested in trying to win their games than in trying to keep within their established fluff ideas.

 

That said, justifying your army list choices based on fluff is awesome! Definitely stick with what you feel makes your army more true to the fluff you love. I myself had something of a letdown when I realized that GKs, GKTs, and even the mighty GM fall far short of the fluff presented in just the game codex, let alone ancillary fluff supplied by GW and Black Library. I finally made my peace with the idea that fluff isn't the game, and the game isn't fluffy. They're related, but in the end I had to accept that they're not equivalent. We wouldn't get fun games if the rules for GKs actually matched up to what we read about! :lol: So every attempt made to preserve fluff in army lists is to be commended. It just isn't something I feel I can legitimately include in tactical advice.

 

You asked one question: Can ISTs be the backbone ("workhorse" was your term) of your army? My answer: YES! Absolutely! I don't personally enjoy using them, and sold them off several years ago in favor of more GKs. But they are wonderful models, excellent fluff, and extremely capable on the tabletop. 5th edition has only expanded the utility of these guys, giving us more tactically viable builds than just the melta-gunner/Rhino and and plasma-gunner/Chimera builds. Using ISTs as your core and then PAGKs as "elites" is, in actuality, more fluffy than an entire army of GKs. It will work well in games, too, though a totally comprehensive "water warrior"/reactive playstyle for the army won't be possible. You'll have to mix your reactivity in with an army that will have a different elemental bent to it.

 

Well I wasn't really offended I just felt scolded :P When number six scolds people listen :lol:

 

As for the fluff thing, yeah I try real hard and just look the other way when the crazy non-fluffy stuff rolls by. So far it works ok, I just have to remember that for game balance they cant justify a single PAGK costing about 120 points. Imagine an entire army in artificer armored librarians, at ws 5-6 all force weapons with I5 and AP4 rounds... broken anyone?

 

And as for that last paragraph so far the IST don't let me down at all. The only time i had to drop my jaw was the sub-ordinance round from a Hammerhead (the shotgun blast) wiping a squad to the man in one shot. That was a nightmare. I really appreciate the input Number Six, you're a good guy.

 

As for Demolisher the Grey Khight, I might have to try a multimelta build... I could try running him behind a rhino for cover...

[Aidoneus]

I've run into trouble lately using ISTs as my "workhorses," due to the huge number of AP4 weapons compared to AP3 weapons. It's really staggering. The worst was against one friend who takes a couple whirlwinds standard. :lol: Keeping them in vehicles helps a lot, but in the end they're just very fragile units.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

And as for that last paragraph so far the IST don't let me down at all. The only time i had to drop my jaw was the sub-ordinance round from a Hammerhead (the shotgun blast) wiping a squad to the man in one shot. That was a nightmare. I really appreciate the input Number Six, you're a good guy.

 

Heh, I play Tau myself. I call that fire mode the 'squad remover', because it can literally annhilate an entire unit that doesn't have 2+ or 3+ saves. Thats why you keep them in smoke-protected Rhinos :D even the solid shot can't breach it then.

 

Yeah, IST's can be great, but unless you're really after plasma (which does come in handy against MC's, 2+ saves etc), Sob with melta+heavy flamer in Rhino are a better buy. I'm swapping out my IST's for SoB at the moment, because power armour, 'Faith' Acts and heavy flamers just make them so much better, and they're not drastically more expensive either.

[Prathios]

Well I ran a 2000 point game tonight against the Tau. Here was my list...

 

GM + 4 GKT

-1 Incinerator

-Icon of the Just

-Holocaust for the GM only

*mounted in LRC with Smoke/Hunter Killer

 

=I= Lord with master crafted plasma pistol and emperor's tarot

- 2x sage

- 3x warrior with plasma

- 1x acolyte with plasma pistol

*Mounted in Rhino with hunter killer/extra armor/smoke

 

9x PAGK

-2 incinerators

*Mounted in GHLR w/Hunter Killer/ Smoke/ Extra Armor

 

9x IST

-Melta Gun

-Veteran (Sergeant Flynn Taggart) with Plasma Pistol and bolter (its what the model has on it :P and I like it that way.)

-Grenade Launcher (I only had 2 melta guns to divy up so I took what I could)

*Mounted in Rhino with hunter killer/extra armor/ smoke

 

5x IST

-Melta Gun

-Grenade Launcher

*Mounted in Chimera with extra armor/hunter killer/ smoke (multilaser) no hull weapon cause I was out of points.

 

Cally!!!

 

And thats my list its kinda weak but it fits me... hehehe

 

Well we got capture and control and dawn of war so we picked our bases and I failed to gain initiative even with tarot (it caused a tie but the roll off went to him)

 

On turn one I actually got my GHLR within 12" of his kroot that were some cover near my starting spot and I burned them out with incinerators from my PAGK, they all died cause Kroot burn well. Thats all that really went down on turn one.

 

Turn two I lost my =I= transport to a Rail gun immobilization so they had to get out and run. The Chimera took a shaken hit from a rail gun and hauled butt towards their lines and poped smoke. The LR's moved up the table (LRC went as far as possible onto the table from reserve) and the other rhino moved as far as possible onto the table. Cally showed up and proceeded to engage his HQ and the Crisis team he joined (not a retinue so I could single him out). She applied two wounds to the nearest model butt was too far away from his HQ to hit him this round. The removed model made plenty of space :D

 

Turn three the tables swiftly went my way. The GHLR hit one of two Hammerheads and ended up shaking it. He spilled his PAGK group out again. The LRC moved 12" and shot its multi-melta for a shaken result and spilled the termies out. The =I= squad dumped its plasma shots into the side armor of one of the Hammerheads and blew off the rail gun!!!! Hurray!!! The GKT shot their incinerator into the stonewall fort that his objective was inside and killed 4 fire warriors inside. The PAGK squad shot both incinerators into a squad of pathfinders on a hill next to the GHLR resulting in all of them dead. Nothing to assault in the assault phase so cally and the crisis suits went at it again this time wounding his HQ three times. He passed his check.

 

Turn four was short, He had several models close to my large IST squad who was more or less defending my objective and he deep struck his stealth suits in behind them but they scattered right on top of the IST squad and got wiped out on the mishap table. At this point the Tau commander called a general retreat from combat and I chased the xenos filth from the Emperors holy grounds. He still had a squad of Kroot, and a full devilfish of fire warriors, a three man crisis team, and two broadsides left but things were turning south fast for him. I had his objective very surrounded and was quickly wrecking his ability to kill my Land raiders so he decided to cut his losses.

 

I had a lot of fun and I think its a good as any place to start tracking my wins/losses/ties. I have the rules down fairly well and it was against a seasoned player. He made a big miscalculation moving his Hammerheads up the board but he didn't realize the potency of my =I= squad and also didn't realize my GKT could have assaulted his tank and hit its rear armor in CC.

 

So tell me based on your advice what did I do wrong that I need to work on, assuming I try at least a little to stay fluffy? The only super big thing I would have changed personally is leave the GKT at home and taken more PAGK and IST. I wasn't really thinking when I took them and before deployment I realized that they didn't really have anything to go fight as they are overkill on everything in his army.

 

P.S. I placed my cally just a tiny bit too far away from one of the Hammerheads so she couldn't hit it with the flame template as well as the Crisis suits I wanted to assault (really would have liked to shake it then)