Thoughts and questions from a begginer

[Reclusiarch Darius]

He made a big miscalculation moving his Hammerheads up the board but he didn't realize the potency of my =I= squad and also didn't realize my GKT could have assaulted his tank and hit its rear armor in CC.

 

:P What an idiot. The Hammerhead has a 72" range on it's main gun....'Shrouding' rarely works so there is no reason to move into lascannon range at all.

 

I wasn't really thinking when I took them and before deployment I realized that they didn't really have anything to go fight as they are overkill on everything in his army.

 

True, but at least they'll attract his fire (helping your PAGK and IST's live longer), and if they do end up in combat it's over quickly (you kill the Tau unit fast, no mucking around with bad rolls). It is a bit much against Tau, but against other armies you really do need the GM to fry tough monsters.

 

Sounds like a good game. You can see why smoke-protected LR's are so powerful, and why incinerators are such a potent weapon on a mechanised squad (as you proved by burninating 3-4 of his squads with impunity).

[Prathios]

He made a big miscalculation moving his Hammerheads up the board but he didn't realize the potency of my =I= squad and also didn't realize my GKT could have assaulted his tank and hit its rear armor in CC.

 

:) What an idiot. The Hammerhead has a 72" range on it's main gun....'Shrouding' rarely works so there is no reason to move into lascannon range at all.

 

I wasn't really thinking when I took them and before deployment I realized that they didn't really have anything to go fight as they are overkill on everything in his army.

 

True, but at least they'll attract his fire (helping your PAGK and IST's live longer), and if they do end up in combat it's over quickly (you kill the Tau unit fast, no mucking around with bad rolls). It is a bit much against Tau, but against other armies you really do need the GM to fry tough monsters.

 

Sounds like a good game. You can see why smoke-protected LR's are so powerful, and why incinerators are such a potent weapon on a mechanised squad (as you proved by burninating 3-4 of his squads with impunity).

 

Well in his defense it was Dawn of War so we started on each half of the table and there was a mountain and his objective bunker blocking line of sight to my LR's so he had to move the hammerheads around to get a clear shot. He assumed he could simply move backwards six inches a turn and cook my LR before my Las could get him. Who knows what would have happend had the =I= not pumped 7 rounds of plasma into its side.

 

And yes I must admit I get excited just thinking about S5AP4 templates. They munch stuff good. I just wish I could clear out fortifications faster with them. Killing a max of 6 guys with a flame weapon is dumb. After thinking about it the Termies would have been a good choice to charge his broadside teams, they could actually survive to get to it unless I miss every invuln save out there...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well in his defense it was Dawn of War so we started on each half of the table and there was a mountain and his objective bunker blocking line of sight to my LR's so he had to move the hammerheads around to get a clear shot. He assumed he could simply move backwards six inches a turn and cook my LR before my Las could get him. Who knows what would have happend had the =I= not pumped 7 rounds of plasma into its side.

 

Ah I see....Throne I hate that deployment scenario. I get similiar sentiments from many opponents, to the point where we both agree to re-roll the deployment type.

And yes I must admit I get excited just thinking about S5AP4 templates. They munch stuff good. I just wish I could clear out fortifications faster with them. Killing a max of 6 guys with a flame weapon is dumb. After thinking about it the Termies would have been a good choice to charge his broadside teams, they could actually survive to get to it unless I miss every invuln save out there...

 

Dude, you do realise you resolve all templates, then roll to wound? So;

 

- Place template

- Determine which models are touched by the template

- Repeat above until all template hits are totaled

- Roll to hit with your other weapons in the unit (in this case storm bolters)

- Roll to wound (use different coloured dice for the incinerator hits)

 

GKT's are overkill, but yes if you want XV88's dead quickly thats a good strategy. The other one is to shoot them with LR lascannons, but they have shield drones+cover saves to screw with your shots (on the other hand, if you do get past those defences you're instant-deathing the suits).

[Prathios]

Dude, you do realise you resolve all templates, then roll to wound? So;

 

- Place template

- Determine which models are touched by the template

- Repeat above until all template hits are totaled

- Roll to hit with your other weapons in the unit (in this case storm bolters)

- Roll to wound (use different coloured dice for the incinerator hits)

 

GKT's are overkill, but yes if you want XV88's dead quickly thats a good strategy. The other one is to shoot them with LR lascannons, but they have shield drones+cover saves to screw with your shots (on the other hand, if you do get past those defences you're instant-deathing the suits).

 

No he was in a fortification, you place the template so that it touches a fire port on the building and then roll a dice to see how many guys inside take hits, then roll to wound. So sadly when inside a "stonewall palace" which is what it was he had an armor 13 bunker to shoot from and the best I can kill is six guys if i roll a six and then wound with every dice. Oh well.

 

If it were just area terrain then hell yes, I would have butchered them much like I did the pathfinders.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

No he was in a fortification, you place the template so that it touches a fire port on the building and then roll a dice to see how many guys inside take hits, then roll to wound. So sadly when inside a "stonewall palace" which is what it was he had an armor 13 bunker to shoot from and the best I can kill is six guys if i roll a six and then wound with every dice. Oh well.

 

If it were just area terrain then hell yes, I would have butchered them much like I did the pathfinders.

 

Ah I see. Not very Tau-like, to make fortifications and hold ground. Their philosophy is 'if the enemy is all dead, then you can hold empty ground without contention' :devil: hence why we pacify with superior firepower.

 

Next time, lascannon that bunker :devil: then they'll be in difficult terrain (the rubble) and thus easy pickings.

[Gentlemanloser]

Having come to the sad decision to finally shelve my GK until we get an update of some sort, I'll try to offer as much positive insight I have into the GK army.

 

Not a DH army, as personally, if I wanted to use IST, I wouldn't be playing a Marine list, and would use the current (and especially new) IG Codex for that.

 

First, just to get it out of the way, PAGK are too expensive. They are currently overcosted for what thier individual points can bring compared to new Codex units. But, they are an awesome Troop choice in a game which now revolves around Troop selection.

 

Keeping them at Range, or Mid Game has slowly started to lose its impact for me. Thier lack of Long Range weapon options hurts, and coupled with the seemingly widely availabe long range Marine killing AP3+ weapons, makes thier long and mid range game frustrating fragile for the points involved.

 

Shrouding included.

 

What PAGK (in my opinion, from constantly facing Dark Reapers, Pathfinders, Sternguard, TSons, Flamers of T and even Necrons) excel at is CC. With a few caveats. Not much can beat WS5 coupled with 2/3 Attacks, S6 (!) and Power Armour saves. Not much, but be careful about the dedicated CC units. PAGK are to me, at their best in CC. When you face the 'uber' CC units (Harlequin's and Bloodletters for example) PAGK excel at being able to retreat from thier advance and still lay fire into these types of squads.

 

The major downsides with PAGK CC effectiveness, is the lack of Transports and the new CC Moral rules. It's just usually too hard to get them into CC, without them having suffered too much from the AP3+ wepaons out there. And if you do suffer a defeat for whatever reason, Fearless can be such a rod to bear. (I really dislike 5th's new Moral rules, I find them lopsided at best...)

 

In all my games over the last couple of years with my GK forces, I've consistentaly had the best results using PAGK LR 'Raider Rushes' (After the inception of 5th that is, previously I found even LR too unreliable for this sort of agressive tactic).

 

Actually, I will sing Praise about a non GK unit in the DH codex. One I don't think I could leave home without now.

 

An Inquisitor with two Mystics for a retinue. Usually in a LR (to make the most of thier range, and to protect an essentially fragile unit in KP matches), but the downside to that is losing a Raider for 'rushing' my PAGK.

 

Mystics are the best thing for countering Drop Podding armies (Sternguard or Dreads) and are really essential to facing a Daemon Army.

 

Try a humble Inquisitor with 2 x Mystics retinue (I don't usually spend any other points on them, not even wepaons for the Inquisitor) and see if they work for you. But, this is only really worth if you face Deep Sriking Troops. :eek

 

Edit:

 

As for Psycannons. They are awesome! One of the best things a GK army can bring to battle. Use as many as you can afford.

 

But, they're too expensive to use on PAGK. They take away everything that makes your GK a GK and not just a Grey Marine. The loss of the NFW (especially for a gun with a suspensor...) is too muhc, on top of it's hefty price Tag.

 

I would advise only taking Psycannons on GKT (and the main reason to use GKT...), or dedicated small 'psuedo Purgation' 5 Man PAGK squad that you only intend to hold back on a camped objective.

 

Psycannons are awesome though. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

First, just to get it out of the way, PAGK are too expensive. They are currently overcosted for what thier individual points can bring compared to new Codex units. But, they are an awesome Troop choice in a game which now revolves around Troop selection.

 

Not at all. For 9pts over the price of a Tactical Marine, and a squad leader costs the same (Justicar w/targeter = Tactical Sarge w/ powerfist), PAGK are a fantastic deal. Ignoring their anti-psyker/daemon rules, they're still significantly better than Tactical Marines in many aspects (close-combat, mobile firepower, anti-infantry firepower). Their psycannons outperform heavy bolter substantially, incinerators make flamers look pointless, and their basic storm bolter firepower is better than rapid-firing bolters in almost all situations (advancing, retreating, assaulting).

On the flipside, PAGK can't engage 2+ saves or vehicles with their guns (in combat they can kill most things aside from AV12+ walkers and Wraithlords), which is where Tactical Marines shine (lascannon/plasma cannon/missile launcher, meltagun/plasma gun for upgrades), nor can they get cheap transports (Rhino/drop pods).

Keeping them at Range, or Mid Game has slowly started to lose its impact for me. Thier lack of Long Range weapon options hurts, and coupled with the seemingly widely availabe long range Marine killing AP3+ weapons, makes thier long and mid range game frustrating fragile for the points involved.

 

Get in cover. Psycannons gel well with the average 'Shrouding' roll (which I believe is around 36"), against enemy fire that does get past Shrouding you have 3+ armour and 4+ cover (3+ cover if you choose to pin yourself, which isn't such a bad option if they're on an objective).

What PAGK (in my opinion, from constantly facing Dark Reapers, Pathfinders, Sternguard, TSons, Flamers of T and even Necrons) excel at is CC. With a few caveats. Not much can beat WS5 coupled with 2/3 Attacks, S6 (!) and Power Armour saves. Not much, but be careful about the dedicated CC units. PAGK are to me, at their best in CC. When you face the 'uber' CC units (Harlequin's and Bloodletters for example) PAGK excel at being able to retreat from thier advance and still lay fire into these types of squads.

 

Dark Reapers can be dealt with by using a Callidus or Outflanking Eversor/Death-Cult. Same for most of those other units you mentioned. Asassins are especially effective at beating Necron Warrior squads, even more so if you charge in multiple Death-Cult operatives to dilute their return attacks.

Drop Pod Sternguard and Flamers can be counted by using Mystics+plasma cannon (or psycannon in the case of the Flamers).

Bloodletters will be affected by 'Rites', so don't worry too much about them. Just whittle them down with your guns, then take their charge (as they'll be at I1). You wound them on 2+ and they only have their weak 5+ invul, so hopefully you'll clean them up before they can swing.

Harlies can be countered by using a cheap Inquisitor with null rod attached to your PAGK. Believe me, most Eldar players go into paroxysms of rage when you say 'yes, you did cast that power, but null rod cock-blocks it always'. Then you empty storm bolter+psycannon/incinerator into the face of his Harlequins :D ah, no saves and wounding on 2+, always fun. Not to mention blocking 'Doom' entirely.

The major downsides with PAGK CC effectiveness, is the lack of Transports and the new CC Moral rules. It's just usually too hard to get them into CC, without them having suffered too much from the AP3+ wepaons out there. And if you do suffer a defeat for whatever reason, Fearless can be such a rod to bear. (I really dislike 5th's new Moral rules, I find them lopsided at best...)

 

They lack transports for balance/background reasons, if you must mechanise take Heavy Support Landraiders/Crusaders (although that only becomes practical at 1,500pts or higher).

In close-combat they're awesome. It takes power weapons/I5+ and/or plenty of attacks to eliminate them. Their WS5 cuts down a lot of incoming damage (WS6 only exists on characters, not on squads), and their power armour reduces both direct damage and 'No Retreat' wounds. If you're losing that badly, they're screwed anyway, cos anything that can live through that much S6 (not to mention the Justicar) will steamroller most other infantry anyway.

 

Try a humble Inquisitor with 2 x Mystics retinue (I don't usually spend any other points on them, not even wepaons for the Inquisitor) and see if they work for you. But, this is only really worth if you face Deep Sriking Troops. msn-wink.gif

 

Don't forget to tack on 'Sanctuary' when facing Daemons, for extra hilarity ^_^

But, they're too expensive to use on PAGK. They take away everything that makes your GK a GK and not just a Grey Marine. The loss of the NFW (especially for a gun with a suspensor...) is too muhc, on top of it's hefty price Tag.

 

I would advise only taking Psycannons on GKT (and the main reason to use GKT...), or dedicated small 'psuedo Purgation' 5 Man PAGK squad that you only intend to hold back on a camped objective.

 

Well, they have to balance the substantial boot in firepower with a loss of close-combat ability. Its' the same reason they don't give us the charge bonus (True Grit instead), it's to balance the formidable amount of Assault firepower PAGK put out prior to entering combat.

 

GKT's really belong in close-combat, I generally give them an incinerator then Deepstrike/pile out of a Crusader and charge things. They are good as fire support, but a PAGK can do the same thing and camp the objective. Don't take a small unit, thats simply making it easier for your opponent to remove them. 8-man with dual psycannon is the smallest you should be taking, if mechanised with incinerators you should be taking 10-man squads.

[Gentlemanloser]

Dark Reapers can be dealt with by using a Callidus or Outflanking Eversor/Death-Cult.

 

I'll not get into a discusion here, that wasn't my intention for the post. But I do want to comment on this.

 

Units in reserves and/or Cover won't save you from the Reapers. The Exarch can either drop AP3 Blasts on your squad (two at once...) to wipe your expensive squads out, or he can make you have no cover save. And sitting in cover, as we've not got anything like Move Through Cover just limits our limited mobility even more, which leads to us being picked off at range.

 

You need a first turn Assault, like the new Drop Pod Assault, or a Deathwing Teleport Assault, to stop the Reapers causing so much damage to your PAGK (unless you keep them in Raiders of course, which is the whole point about the OPs topic about Raider necessity. Need them for Mobility, Anti Tank, to Keep your expensive Troops alive, and to deliver you into Incinerator/CC range...) before you can stop them.

 

Random Reserve rolls don't cut it.

 

And the Callies AWIYE to move them out of LoS (if possible) is easily countered by Eldrads redeployment (Well at best you'll win the dice off and make Eldrad go first...).

 

And that doesn't help if there's more than one of them.

[Obliterator]

Units in reserves and/or Cover won't save you from the Reapers. The Exarch can either drop AP3 Blasts on your squad (two at once...) to wipe your expensive squads out, or he can make you have no cover save. And sitting in cover, as we've not got anything like Move Through Cover just limits our limited mobility even more, which leads to us being picked off at range.

I don't have too much experience with assassins (Reapers usually either get no targets or a Seraphim OD), but have you tried the Callidus (or Eversor) combined with some Death Cult Assassins? Place the DCA more then a template from another DCA, and place all DCA's in front of the temple assassin. This leaves the Reapers with two options:

1) ignore the DCA's, which results in lots of dead Eldar

2) shoot at DCA's, which will only result in 1 or 2 death DCA's, leaving them vulnerable for the rest of the assassins.

 

Sure, you could lose some 40-point models, but sure beats the hell outta losing that expensive PAGK-squad to template fire...

[Gentlemanloser]

That would work.

 

If all you face is Reapers.

 

Usually, the Pathfinders/Avatar/Harlies/whatever else munch your "lolz give me free KP" infiltrating DCA (while you desperatly try not to roll a 1 on your Cally's reserve roll - Or the Eversor get's focused and shot before he can charge), and the Reapers continue to ignore the DCA/Lone Assassin and pepper your PAGK with AP3 Missiles.

 

But this is decidedly OT now.

 

To the OP. If you can get your group to agree, try using the IA2 Updated rules or GK vehicles. This will give you access to a Drop Pod (with Both Drop Pod Assault *and* Locator Beacon!) for your Dreads, which can change the way you use your Heavy slots completly.

 

Use DCCW/Incinerator Dreads in Pod, and use the Pod to DS Termies off of.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Units in reserves and/or Cover won't save you from the Reapers. The Exarch can either drop AP3 Blasts on your squad (two at once...) to wipe your expensive squads out, or he can make you have no cover save. And sitting in cover, as we've not got anything like Move Through Cover just limits our limited mobility even more, which leads to us being picked off at range.

 

Yeah, but his 'Crack Shot' ability is only for him, not his unit. Although with a tempest launcher it becomes pretty messy ^_^

 

Outflanking Death-Cult/Eversor will come onto the side you want 2/3rds of the time. Unless he placed the Reapers in the middle of his DZ, it's entirely possible you'll get the Asasssins arriving on the same side as the Reapers and charging them. If they get shot thats fire not going into the rest of your army, and they're cheap enough to sacrifice.

 

You need a first turn Assault, like the new Drop Pod Assault, or a Deathwing Teleport Assault, to stop the Reapers causing so much damage to your PAGK (unless you keep them in Raiders of course, which is the whole point about the OPs topic about Raider necessity. Need them for Mobility, Anti Tank, to Keep your expensive Troops alive, and to deliver you into Incinerator/CC range...) before you can stop them.

 

Oh I agree, Landraiders are essential. But you can get a ninja assault off with the Callidus (as she deploys wherever you wish), and if the Eldar player doesn't deploy them centerline you can catch them out with DCA's/Eversor Outflanking.

 

And that doesn't help if there's more than one of them.

 

Nobody takes more than 1 Reaper squad. Falcons and Fire Prisms are just too useful, not to mention War Walker squadrons packing scatter lasers Outflanking.

I don't have too much experience with assassins (Reapers usually either get no targets or a Seraphim OD), but have you tried the Callidus (or Eversor) combined with some Death Cult Assassins? Place the DCA more then a template from another DCA, and place all DCA's in front of the temple assassin. This leaves the Reapers with two options:

1) ignore the DCA's, which results in lots of dead Eldar

2) shoot at DCA's, which will only result in 1 or 2 death DCA's, leaving them vulnerable for the rest of the assassins.

 

Remember, they can only target one Assassin, and it will only take about 2 x DCA's on the charge to wipe out a Reaper squad in close-combat. So, you'll only lose 1 DCA in all likelyhood (or the Temple operative), but the others will still wipe the floor with the Reapers when they reach them.

 

Usually, the Pathfinders/Avatar/Harlies/whatever else munch your "lolz give me free KP" infiltrating DCA (while you desperatly try not to roll a 1 on your Cally's reserve roll - Or the Eversor get's focused and shot before he can charge), and the Reapers continue to ignore the DCA/Lone Assassin and pepper your PAGK with AP3 Missiles.

 

So don't Infiltrate them. Outflank is probably your best bet, if he's counter-infiltrating/adjusting his deployment to counter Infiltration. Like I said before, each DCA is a seperate target, so he'll be wasting substantial amounts of firepower on 40pt models if he goes after them. If he ignores them, they'll reach combat and kill things with their S4 power weapons.

[Prathios]

That would work.

 

If all you face is Reapers.

 

Usually, the Pathfinders/Avatar/Harlies/whatever else munch your "lolz give me free KP" infiltrating DCA (while you desperatly try not to roll a 1 on your Cally's reserve roll - Or the Eversor get's focused and shot before he can charge), and the Reapers continue to ignore the DCA/Lone Assassin and pepper your PAGK with AP3 Missiles.

 

But this is decidedly OT now.

 

To the OP. If you can get your group to agree, try using the IA2 Updated rules or GK vehicles. This will give you access to a Drop Pod (with Both Drop Pod Assault *and* Locator Beacon!) for your Dreads, which can change the way you use your Heavy slots completly.

 

Use DCCW/Incinerator Dreads in Pod, and use the Pod to DS Termies off of.

 

Thats not a bad idea actually, I can't tell you how much I would love to use drop pods. Cause I love CC dreads and a DP would make one suddenly go to the top of the threat list, which either gets the dread killed and saves the rest of my forces some shots or he survives, absorbs some attacks, and then kills some guys.