2 Deamon Prince in 1000 points

[Spacefrisian]

I have seen some guys not liking the idea of having 2 Deamon princes in a Chaos Spacemarine list, now i was just wondering if its realy that bad to face that kind of list. Note that i'am not specificly talk about the 2 Lash prince lists.

 

BTW: i might try 1 myself though 1 of them will be a Winged Khorn deamon prince (can't get around that with all the Khorne symbols on it)

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'd call two DPs at 1500 fairly cheesy as well. I'd still play against it, and i've played it myself, but its certainly more competitive than friendly. Then again, i ran 2 lash princes in a 1000 points doubles just a few days ago (and somehow won best sportsmanship)

[Mutt-Man!]

2 Princes cheesy in 1k? No way. Face a Nidzilla Player, a necron Ctan player(in 1k its horrendous to face), and face the daemon player with lots of greater daemons and daemon princes.

 

You get up to three monstrous critters, the other lists I mentioned can pack 5+ MC's in a single 1k list. (Dont forget the Tomb Spyders, three for every heavy support).

 

Good luck for anyone trying to maintain 2 princes in 1k is cheese. Rather, your paying for one model instead of 10-or so scoring troops if you do so.

 

-And lets not forget the 3 leman russ IG player for 1k.

-The eldar can have 4 MC's in 1k.

-Dark eldar can pack 3 fairly cheaply, and they can still beat up our princes.

-Tau battlesuit army in 1k with much less firepower arcs to take advantage of, try facing one.

 

Its not cheese, its called tourniment metagaming. (Players who get miffed by this style of play call it powergaming and beardy/cheesy, when people rather win that 400 dollar prize using 250 dollars to drive out there).

 

Also for people who feel like they waste cash in tight pocket times, only to feel sub par or ridiculed from both sides of the coin.

 

The term and speakers of the name "Cheese" ruins the game. All models take a good command and plan to be made use of, people who bark that stuff dont use their army well against adverse forces. Especially the ones they dont prepare for, with their only preperation against those armies being a sneering backslap that they cant be defended from because of peer pressure of the commonly accepted term of "cheese". Like I said, it ruins the game.

 

Composition scores should be based on the armies background and what they have, like a rare land raider wouldnt have 5 of them in one small 2k force (like some chaos armies can pull off). Instead with lots of daemons, cult troops and so on should get a better score. Two prince's arent seen fighting along side eachother, unless they both represent a warband within the force. Like a khorne prince leading some khorne troops, and a undivided prince leading a band of iron warriors, both in the same army list.

 

Though sometimes people get biased over this subject, I've taken a 130 chaos marines into a 2k game and given a lower composition score then a ravenwing force full of grey knights+inquisitor. (Secret keepers allied with those they keep secrets from? no way =p)

[Cornelias]

the way i see it i if your playing in a tournament (that has prizes etc.) then nothing can be called cheesy, your playing to win end of story. if your playing friendly games, roleplaying events or games against new players i would frown upon such tactics especially if it's against new or inexperienced players as getting steamrollered will only dishearten them and ultimately drive them away from the hobby.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Muttman, you are wrong simply because some units in the codex are better than others. Daemon Princes are far more powerful and effective for their point costs than any of the other armies you mentioned. 2 DPs in 1k points isn't cheesy because they are MCs, its cheesy because Daemon Princes are overpowered.

[minigun762]

I don't know if I'd call it cheesy, but it certainly is very competitive.

I'd say its a tournament build to be sure.

[teh_perfesser]

No.

 

Daemon Princes are just unit selections. They don't bend or abuse rules, there is not trickery or shadiness with them. A unit selection, in and of itself, is never "cheesy".

[Drudge Dreadnought]

No.

 

Daemon Princes are just unit selections. They don't bend or abuse rules, there is not trickery or shadiness with them. A unit selection, in and of itself, is never "cheesy".

 

Many will not agree. A cheesy list is generally considered to be one that uses unfluffy combinations of the most powerful units in the most powerful configurations for the sole purpose of winning. If that is not what it means to you, then okay. But this is what it means to most people.

[DuskRaider]

Truthfully, the CSM Daemon Princes are vastly underpowered. Look at the Daemons Codex Prince and then at the CSM one, it's a mockery. Sure it's an MC, but that's all it has for it. So go for it, I mean... a squad of Terminators can take them down (trust me, I've done it). I prefer Termie Lords, but that's me...

[Mutt-Man!]

Agreed with Corneleas, and yeah there are superior/inferior MC's then the princes but that doesnt change the ideal that other armies can do similar for close to the same cost. (Give and take certain abilities, like wraithlords ranged weapons, etc).

 

Compedetive and casual, no such thing as cheese unless its a real broken rule. Like people saying "base contact" must mean the bases are in actual contact with eachother, while mentioned a while back that a Tau player called foul to a chaos player because the trench his tau were in disallowed the chaos marines base contact because of elevation difference. That is cheese, fould, powergame, and rules lawyering at its worst. (Powergame, which unit would you deny melee perfectly for? A ranged unit..)

 

THey still have no errata for that, and I was hoping it would be covered properly in 5th edition. Tough luck I suppose =\

[the jeske]

Muttman, you are wrong simply because some units in the codex are better than others. Daemon Princes are far more powerful and effective for their point costs than any of the other armies you mentioned. 2 DPs in 1k points isn't cheesy because they are MCs, its cheesy because Daemon Princes are overpowered.

 

ah yes of course and thats why a chaos player to be non cheezy should build his army around , static 20man las/plas csm squads , possessed[only in 5 man squads with icon of nurgle] , chaos spawn , and shoty dreads [plas/RL].

 

A DP is not overpowered . In fact most good players will tell you that they tend to die very fast in the 5th [mulit shot weapons and true LoS being important factors here].

If you play with a build that has actuall problems with 2 mc in 1k pts games[or even higher], then I dont know what you do [without hvy list tailoring] against nob bikers builds or DW at 1-1.5k pts.

 

A cheesy list is generally considered to be one that uses unfluffy combinations of the most powerful units in the most powerful configurations for the sole purpose of winning.

the moment I call my army BL and start with "Abadon ordered it and they obey" everything taken out of a chaos dex is fluffy . thats without doing stuff like counts as ad mecha lists , hrud or pre heresy sm. [two primarchs fought side to side in small skirmishes more then once ].

[Spacefrisian]

Than i'll give it a try. BTW i'am quite handy in letting a single Deamonprince getting on the other side without receiving wounds, if i do say so myself.

[Sons of Horus]

remember that as long as it's legal it's not cheese. it's hard to fight sure but not impossible :D

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Muttman, you are wrong simply because some units in the codex are better than others. Daemon Princes are far more powerful and effective for their point costs than any of the other armies you mentioned. 2 DPs in 1k points isn't cheesy because they are MCs, its cheesy because Daemon Princes are overpowered.

 

ah yes of course and thats why a chaos player to be non cheezy should build his army around , static 20man las/plas csm squads , possessed[only in 5 man squads with icon of nurgle] , chaos spawn , and shoty dreads [plas/RL].

 

A DP is not overpowered . In fact most good players will tell you that they tend to die very fast in the 5th [mulit shot weapons and true LoS being important factors here].

If you play with a build that has actuall problems with 2 mc in 1k pts games[or even higher], then I dont know what you do [without hvy list tailoring] against nob bikers builds or DW at 1-1.5k pts.

 

A cheesy list is generally considered to be one that uses unfluffy combinations of the most powerful units in the most powerful configurations for the sole purpose of winning.

the moment I call my army BL and start with "Abadon ordered it and they obey" everything taken out of a chaos dex is fluffy . thats without doing stuff like counts as ad mecha lists , hrud or pre heresy sm. [two primarchs fought side to side in small skirmishes more then once ].

 

Yes Jeske and there is no such thing as moderation. There is no middle ground, and no grey area. I'm talking about the the general definition of a common term, not about the actual appropriatness of it in list building. In other words, most tournament lists would be considered cheesy by your average player.

 

Agreed with Corneleas, and yeah there are superior/inferior MC's then the princes but that doesnt change the ideal that other armies can do similar for close to the same cost. (Give and take certain abilities, like wraithlords ranged weapons, etc).

 

Compedetive and casual, no such thing as cheese unless its a real broken rule. Like people saying "base contact" must mean the bases are in actual contact with eachother, while mentioned a while back that a Tau player called foul to a chaos player because the trench his tau were in disallowed the chaos marines base contact because of elevation difference. That is cheese, fould, powergame, and rules lawyering at its worst. (Powergame, which unit would you deny melee perfectly for? A ranged unit..)

 

THey still have no errata for that, and I was hoping it would be covered properly in 5th edition. Tough luck I suppose =\

 

I think if you compare the point costs you will find that the CSM DP is just as good if not better than the Daemons one. A basic winged prince or wing+warptime one is very cheap and very effective. You have to spend a lot more points on a codex: daemons DP to get it as good, although all their options are nice.

 

Most of the people in this thread seem to think that cheese is a matter of legality. I'm pretty sure this is not what the OP was asking, and i've never heard the term cheese used to refer to legality before, only to the ratio of powerful units vs fluffiness. Its a matter of powergaming, not of cheating.

[Zhukov]

Dont know if its cheesy, maybe a little. I used it alot. But indeed they tend to die pretty quick against good players. I only take 1 now, I'd rather have 2 dreads now. More variety, bit less boring.

 

But in 1000 its a bit cheesy against some armies (mainly marines).

[Mutt-Man!]

Question is not geared for the total cost of the models, just that if two in 1k is cheesy. Chaos Daemons can pack 3 princes with roughly similar results and their points reflect having a potentially zilla list at their disposal. 3 princes, 2 GD's, will run around 800 points, and add troops after - used in 1500's and above often.

 

I vent when I speak about events like "base contact" rules lawyering. =P On the part about legality, dont mind that part much.

[Spacefrisian]

My idea now is something along the lines of.

 

Winged Deamon Prince of Khorne

Winged Deamon Prince of Tzeentch (or Nurgle) with Gift of Chaos, the power is mainly meant to pic out those powerfists wielding Characters and make life easier for the prince, although its a 50/50 chance for succes.) "no were did i left my rubberduckies as Spawn stand ins"

[DuskRaider]

Gift of Chaos = Crap. It can be useful if it works on the enemy's IC or HQ, but by and large it sucks, mainly because the Chaos Spawn do. Use Wind of Chaos, generally works well (it's the same thing as Breath of Chaos for Daemons and I swear by it).

[eyescrossed]

^_^

I have been swung by so called "power gamers" over the past few days.

If something is "unfair", "unbalanced" and "unfluffy", then why are we allowed to field those types of armies? If it was really the case, wouldn't Codices have restrictions so it was impossible to make a cheesy army?

:P

 

 

 

I don't think it is cheesy as such - the list is stronger, but it's not impossible to beat.

[DuskRaider]

I think the problem is, with the new 'dex it's so cookie cutter that people are really just sick of playing against the same old list every single time, ESPECIALLY in tournaments. Dual lash, how imaginative! Bleh... go with dual Khorne Princes, I can see that being fun.

[Sons of Horus]

i always field dual Khorne princes with my WE army :tu: very fun indeed :tu: in fact Khorne armies are usually the most exciting because there's way more action :P my two frags

[Democratus]

:D

I have been swung by so called "power gamers" over the past few days.

If something is "unfair", "unbalanced" and "unfluffy", then why are we allowed to field those types of armies? If it was really the case, wouldn't Codices have restrictions so it was impossible to make a cheesy army?

 

This logic assumes that 40K is a perfectly balanced game. I don't believe it is, and many other players feel the same.

 

In a game that isn't perfectly ballanced there will be units/armies/combinations that are more powerful for their points cost than others. Some codices allow a player to build a 1500-point army which is as battle-effective as the best 1750-point army from another codex.

 

Taking an army consisting solely (or primarily) of the units which have a greater points efficiency than is possible in other armys is what is considered "Cheesy" or "Beardy" by many. An army built in this nature is cleary built with the intent to exploit the inherent imbalances in the game.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

And I have an issue with people trying to make me play inefficiently.

 

I ran 2 Raiders at 1750 in my last FLGS tourney, and recieved a 2/6 for comp (the 2 from one of my team), got dinged on sportsmanship, had an opponent muttering about "I can't do anything about 2 Raiders!" :) :lol: all game, and had the highest battle score at the tourney.

:P :) :)

 

It's not like my list was powergamey, in fact, it was distinctly subobtimal (1xDP, Warptime; 1x Termicide; 2x10 Zerk; 2x10 CSM, Rhino; 2x Raider). Chaos is my "fun" army, not my "OMGCHEEZEMONSTAZ" army.

 

Next time, I'll see how they like dual lash...

[Cornelias]

i'd just like to see people challenge themselves a bit more, i've built most of my lists lately without lash princes( never used them), PMs, zerkers or oblits and have only lost 1 game to blood angels. throw in a wild card unit like possessed or something and try to get the best out of something that is generally considered "not cheesy", making the game harder for yourself and thus more satisfying when you actually do win.

 

if you pop over to the ultramarine boards a guy over there has made a tactica for 10th company armies using mostly scouts and it's a great read, sure it's by far the not the best way to use the new marine codex but i bet when he winds a few games he's grinning from ear to ear. i really do tip my hat to him and i wish more people had this attitude and brought tales of hard fought battles with less powerful armies onto the boards.

 

any idiot can fire up a dual lash build (or for that matter nob bikers,battlesuit spam,kantor/khan lists etc.) and steamroller people but my question is how many people actually find that fun and rewarding?

[the jeske]

and steamroller people but my question is how many people actually find that fun and rewarding?

that depends on how many prizes and cash you win and how fast the army pays for itself . if fast then it can be quite rewarding.

Yes Jeske and there is no such thing as moderation. There is no middle ground, and no grey area. I'm talking about the the general definition of a common term, not about the actual appropriatness of it in list building. In other words, most tournament lists would be considered cheesy by your average player.

nope there is non. there is stuff that can be part of a good list and there is stuff that cant . chaos right now has 1 working army[bL] with 2 builds [normal mecha and LR rush] and maybe one or two fring lists [nm water warrior and chaoszilla] . compering to what the old dex had[not whining here] it is a lot less and I do understand people without skills to build a working army dislike it .

 

I think if you compare the point costs you will find that the CSM DP is just as good if not better than the Daemons one.

see you look at this like a fluff head . Zomg the [insart unit name here] is too powerful for its points/rules etc .People should look at this as list builders . Outside chaoszilla[not main played list out of chaos with some very tough match ups and random factor] there is going to be max 2 MC in a good list . A demon one can run 5 . see the difference ? a good list will be able to take out 2 MC[that dont deep strike] , but it may have problems with taking out 5 . specially when there are fast moving/tough troops landing near. Yes the random factor is there[just like in chaoszilla] and if the waves come bad demons lose bad , but its more like a 50/50 chance considering that units are spamed. in normal games against normal lists DP [the chaos sm ones] die almost always , because if they dont the enemy loses bad [lash etc].