2 Deamon Prince in 1000 points

[DuskRaider]

I think if you compare the point costs you will find that the CSM DP is just as good if not better than the Daemons one. A basic winged prince or wing+warptime one is very cheap and very effective. You have to spend a lot more points on a codex: daemons DP to get it as good, although all their options are nice.

 

This is far from the truth. I play Death Guard, I want it to be lead by a Daemon Prince. OK, so there's a Daemon Prince with Mark of Nurgle. I have two more options and then I'm out, doesn't give me much in the way of tooling out an army, which is my main issue with the new 'dex DP. In 3.5 I could have a DP that was what a DP is supposed to be... a raging mass of warp energy that CAN take out heavy hitters easily. Many cried cheese, and it was true. I remember games where I took out an opposing army with a Daemon Prince alone!

 

The issue is that they have no options other then a mark, wings, and a lame power. I think that's where GW went wrong, and they corrected the mistake with the Daemon Codex, but it's too little too late. Thankfully, if they DO release Legion codices, Gav Thorpe will be no where near them.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I think if you compare the point costs you will find that the CSM DP is just as good if not better than the Daemons one. A basic winged prince or wing+warptime one is very cheap and very effective. You have to spend a lot more points on a codex: daemons DP to get it as good, although all their options are nice.

 

This is far from the truth. I play Death Guard, I want it to be lead by a Daemon Prince. OK, so there's a Daemon Prince with Mark of Nurgle. I have two more options and then I'm out, doesn't give me much in the way of tooling out an army, which is my main issue with the new 'dex DP. In 3.5 I could have a DP that was what a DP is supposed to be... a raging mass of warp energy that CAN take out heavy hitters easily. Many cried cheese, and it was true. I remember games where I took out an opposing army with a Daemon Prince alone!

 

The issue is that they have no options other then a mark, wings, and a lame power. I think that's where GW went wrong, and they corrected the mistake with the Daemon Codex, but it's too little too late. Thankfully, if they DO release Legion codices, Gav Thorpe will be no where near them.

 

This is what i said... Our basic wing or warptime prince is more efficient than the daemon's one, but they have better options.

 

Jeske: You are completely misinterpreting me again. Do you even read my posts? I don't disagree with what you've just said at all, but it has nothing to do with what i was talking about.

[Brother Blackbone]

Wow, that is a lot of discussion over this topic.

 

I reckon if you are playing a game at 1000 pts, it is probably not serious or competitive anyways. Play whatever you want. I used Abaddon at a 1K free tournament because it is the HQ I had painted up.

 

- Blackbone

[cathar the great]

My idea now is something along the lines of.

 

Winged Deamon Prince of Khorne

Winged Deamon Prince of Tzeentch (or Nurgle) with Gift of Chaos, the power is mainly meant to pic out those powerfists wielding Characters and make life easier for the prince, although its a 50/50 chance for succes.) "no were did i left my rubberduckies as Spawn stand ins"

 

That is exactly the kind of thing I would call cheesy. Not because it is completely unbeatable or freakishly overpowered, but because I like to play narrative games and campaigns and the combination of Tzeentch and Khorne (who hates sorcery) units in one list without some counts-as explanation is very unrealistic in comparison with the background story of 40k.

 

I know the new codex allows combinations of all Chaos god's units, but that doesn't mean that you have to take them. While the jeske is a tournament player and probably has to think in the terms and superlatives he does, if you are looking for advice on friendly games / non-competetive games in your group, I would not listen to his advice that much.

[the jeske]

You are completely misinterpreting me again. Do you even read my posts? I don't disagree with what you've just said at all, but it has nothing to do with what i was talking about.

 

yes I do . how am I suppose to interpret a sentence like this "I think if you compare the point costs you will find that the CSM DP is just as good if not better than the Daemons one." when its not true .

 

or when you say

Muttman, you are wrong simply because some units in the codex are better than others. Daemon Princes are far more powerful and effective for their point costs than any of the other armies you mentioned. 2 DPs in 1k points isn't cheesy because they are MCs, its cheesy because Daemon Princes are overpowered.

and again not true , unless someone build bad lists and wants opponent to tailor their list to his own [low] lvl of skills , but then everything can be cheezy . SoB and grey knight can be cheezy for players like ... no insulting players here .. fluff heads.

 

 

If I wanted narrative story I read a book , I dont expect my opponent to make a bad list to make my even worse one work , because the next step is saying that this or that unit would not do this or that " because its not fluffy"[and considering how butchered the fluff is everything could be made fluffy now] and for a game that requiers at least some skills it would be a death kneel.

[cathar the great]

If I wanted narrative story I read a book , I dont expect my opponent to make a bad list to make my even worse one work , because the next step is saying that this or that unit would not do this or that " because its not fluffy"[and considering how butchered the fluff is everything could be made fluffy now] and for a game that requiers at least some skills it would be a death kneel.

 

And this is where we will never find a consensus I think. Not that we need to, everyone can have an opinion, right? You see 40k as a sport, and I see it as a free-time activity with friends and collegues. In a narrative campaign, who wins what and when is not that relevant, it just adds to the story. Don't frown and look down upon someone else's take on the hobby because you don't (want to) understand it.

[Spacefrisian]

This is not meant as narrative play. More powergamer like (just for once to try out).

 

I plan on going more narrative/fluff play style when i have finished my Sons of Horus army.

[Zhukov]

It looks to me that Jeske is used to play against good players mostly of the time, is it not?

But many of the people here are playing against players who dont invest hours in reading stuff on B&C or making a powerlist or practicing almost every day.

 

So for some gaming groups things are more cheesy then in others. Heck some gaming groups dont even think about things being cheesy, they just play a game and try to win with a list which isnt even viable as how most people here would look upon it. The dont look at a list and think 'omg thats cheese'.

In other gaming groups you have an autoloss if you take a list without princes, oblits, plague marines and where not most of the list is mechanized (just an example)

 

What my point is? Dont know actually...well maybe that cheese is higly relative, completly depending on your oponents.

 

Against my regular oponent 2 princes arent cheesy anymore, as he is used to them now and I helped him to make better lists. Against probably a lot of players in my local club (not all of course) 2 princes in 1k means for them autoloss. They just wont handle it.

 

Btw SpaceFrisian dont worry, I'm not participating is the next tourney ;)

[Spacefrisian]

I should be able to handle Tim and his Eldar. The other i suppose is Frank and his Orks.

[Zhukov]

Tim wont play with eldar. Frank does not play any more. But Brian and peter are pretty good players too if I'm not mistaken? Dont know for sure, havent played them yet.

 

But if you want 2 princes just to win, them take proper builds for them like:

-lash prince

-Nurgle w/ warptime

-just wings

 

I would not take a shooting power except lash.

[Spacefrisian]

Might try that than.

 

And you have played against me than you know how good Peter is. We are practicly on equal level.

[Zhukov]

Well I cant really judge on the last time I played you, you did not play with an optimised list. Maybe we should have some games sometime? If we both come with good lists it should be interesting.

[DuskRaider]

Well said, friend. I've done the tourney thing, but I truly enjoy the game from a fluff perspective, but I can also see how people like to play at a competitive level. That's the joy of 40k, it has a lot to offer.

[Spacefrisian]

Well I was talking generally and I miss my own point a little as I read my own post haha. But no mistakes I'm at the moment 'just like you' not a power gamer any more either, I did not enjoy it anymore. So now I'm using lesser lists too, and I enjoy it so far.

 

So we might see you with a Witch cult army list in the future (yes thats a challenging army)

[Night Stalker]

Sure it's cheesy (fluff wing here, not rules expoiting wing).

[doctor_wu]

I do not think it is fluffy. Sure it is able to be taken down.

 

2 deamon princes alone do not make the list cheesy.

If someone powergames not to use their games then that is not good. I have seen someone misuse a lash prince at games day.

 

If htey were walking princes then they would not be cheesy it would be suboptimal.

It is not super cheesy but only a tad.

[Night Stalker]

What kind of tactics you can learn from sub par game you just asked Jeske.

 

I'll answer: to correctly use your units. subpar lists battle is not less tactical at all. it require just as much skills as top-tier tournament lists. Sometimes even more. I played both flavours.

 

Also, you dont understand how the games meant to be played back in the days.

 

'take cool minis and have fun'.

 

You're 'optimise my list and pwn' slave.

[Brother Nihm]

Spacefrisian,

I hope you had your original question answered to your satisfaction. :)

 

 

As for the topic, I'm closing it for a little while to give certain people the chance to cool off.