whitewolfmxc Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Some friend told me that if i did not successfully counter attack by leadership roll at the beginning of the combat , my wolf pelt doesn't give me the + 1 attack ? is that true ? as the FAQ here says other wise Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Bjoern Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Every time you make a counter-attack you will get +1A from the Wolf Pelt. If you make a successfull Ld test you will get an additional +1A for the Universal Special Rule (USR) Counter-Attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1936302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Every time you make a counter-attack you will get +1A from the Wolf Pelt. If you make a successfull Ld test you will get an additional +1A for the Universal Special Rule (USR) Counter-Attack. Agreed - some friend you've got there! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1936334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitewolfmxc Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 in my codex it says "when they counter attack" , so if failed dice roll = failed counter attack = no counter attack = no "when" ??? that was my friends point and i cant find a reason to object it ? while it didnt say for effect after a successful or failed counter attack , one can argue you cant when it failed ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1936385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 It just says "when they counter attack" which is the action of moving your models up into B2B with the attackers which is the part that gives you the wolf pelt's bonus THEN you roll for the USR "Counter-Attack" bonus which grants an additional bonus IF you make the required roll. It's one of the things the Space Wolves get that REALLY helps us in 5th Ed. If nothing else tell your friend to show you in the Space Wolf codex to show where it mentions that you only get the bonus for the wolf pelt when Counter-Attacking if you pass the test..... It doesn't, it just says if you Counter-Attack....granted this was before Counter-Attack USR gave you a bonus but it's one of the things that buffed us in 5th Ed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1936453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deedark Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 So why buy a pelt that duplicates the counterattack rule and still have to take the test and abide by the result paying 3 points for something you already get if the results didnt stack Yo' friend is dumb beat his wolf hating ass into the ground D ;p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1936518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullr Direfang Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 So why buy a pelt that duplicates the counterattack rule and still have to take the test and abide by the result paying 3 points for something you already get if the results didnt stack because they do stack. the way i use them is i guess the way the OP's friend was saying they are to be used. being that, as i read it, defenders react is not counter-attack, so they only get the bonus if they pass a Ld test. still 3pt for +2 attacks when counter-attacking is great, i have rarely failed a Ld test so it works out. this is how i use it, it is my opinion on how it works; and at my LGSs, it is how i have explained it and they accept it. if i were to go to any other store i would have to figure out how it seems "fair" there before i even play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1936744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Your friend is correct. The movement is known as 'defenders react' not 'counter-attack' anymore (pg34). Our faq clearly states that we ae to ignore our rule for counter-attack and to use the definition from the universal special rules section of the 40k rule book (pg74). The new definition is 'counter-attack is only the act of taking a leadership test when you are assaulted, if you make it, you get your bonus as if you charged and also get your pelt bonus. if you fail the test you are caught off guard and do not get your counter-attack bonus or in other words you do not counter-attack at all. That is a fair reading of the rules IMO because if you fail your Ld test you are obviously not ready for the coming attack and shouldn't recieve any bonuses. Before you guys cut off my ale, think about it. With our old codex these little things come up from time to time and they all can't be to our advantage. I look for the advantage just like the next guy but this isn't an unreasonable view point to take. I too wish that the pelt guaranteed the extra attack but it just isn't so, hence the need for the Ld test to see if the unit is ready to defend itself from the enemy. Besides, the only guys who can take a pelt have a leadership of atleast 9 leaving only a one-in-four chance of failure (only one-in-six if your Ld is 10). So take heart my brothers and throw your enemies a bone, you'll most likely stomp them in CC anyway with your abundant PWs/PFs and heavy weapon weilding HQs who get an actual 'retinue' for protection. As always, however you and your friends agree to play is fine. I just think you have to take the good with the bad, and don't ignore a rule because you aren't helped by it. Because as whitewolfmxc has found out, your enemies are deserately searching for any way to counter our devestating skills. Please hear then out and don't dismis thier hopes out of hand eventhou they are usually wrong :) . G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfGeezer Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I agree with G.A.K. seems the fairest and most RAW interpretation to me. Don't agree with your probability though, the chances of rolling 11 or 12 with 2D6 is not 1 in 6. Somebody buy the man a mathhammer with the next ale! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Lemme see, lemme see... Seeing as you're rolling 2 6-sided dice, that's a total of 36 possible number combos. Then, there are only 2 possible combos that can result in an 11 or 12 ( a five and six or two sixes), making it 34/36, which when divided by 2 = 17/18 So, by then dividing 17 by 18, we get a 94.4% chance of passing the Ld-test to Counter-Attack. Finally Algebra 1 pays off it seems. I'll be taking my ale now whelps... :blink: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfGeezer Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Swiping that ale out of your hand at the last minute there Bran. Seeing as you're rolling 2 6-sided dice, that's a total of 36 possible number combos. Then, there are only 2 possible combos that can result in an 11 or 12 ( a five and six or two sixes), making it 34/36, which when divided by 2 = 17/18 Afraid you can have 2 sixes, a six and a five or a five and a six. Probability is actually 33/36 or 91.66%. Sorry to do that to you man - actually I can't, have an ale anyway! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I can't argue with the math. I was doing a quick short cut by limiting my view to the simple total of twelve, I knew after I wrote it that it seemed too high of a chance of failure. I made the mistake of alloting a even prob of each outcome instead of accounting for the two six-sided dice involved. I can get a little short-sighted when I am trying to make a logical point. Thanks for the correction guys, Ales are on me!!!( I obviously need more ^_^ ) I feel soooooo foolish, by my probability table there was even a chance of getting a result of 1(???). But I stand by my overall statement. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitewolfmxc Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 ok thank you for you guys input in this >< i know what i must do as a Son of Russ ! ps: Im still in need to have a major battle with my mates >< so far ive often on the losing side.......>< (but if course a lot of honorable heroic moments before that) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 How big are your usual games? In my experience the wolves are at a little of a disadvantage in games of fewer than 1200 pts because of our required HQs. I usually always play 1500-2000 pt games with my friends in one of our basements. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Swiping that ale out of your hand at the last minute there Bran. Seeing as you're rolling 2 6-sided dice, that's a total of 36 possible number combos. Then, there are only 2 possible combos that can result in an 11 or 12 ( a five and six or two sixes), making it 34/36, which when divided by 2 = 17/18 Afraid you can have 2 sixes, a six and a five or a five and a six. Probability is actually 33/36 or 91.66%. Sorry to do that to you man - actually I can't, have an ale anyway! Hmm, but I thought if a combination was reversed, it was still the same. So (5,6) was the same as (6,5) and was only counted once... ah oh well, gimme that ale! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitewolfmxc Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 How big are your usual games? In my experience the wolves are at a little of a disadvantage in games of fewer than 1200 pts because of our required HQs. I usually always play 1500-2000 pt games with my friends in one of our basements. G we most of the time play 1000 or 1250 , rarly 1500 or above as usually we play 2 vs 2 or 1 vs 1 , and yes i do agree above 1500 is when sw work better Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deedark Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 @ direfang because they do stack. hmmm is that not what I said, ie you wouldnt buy a pelt unless it stacked because you are not going to fail too many 9/10 leadership tests, and if as the OP friend said you also had to role a Leadership test to use the pelt why would you bother Less Ale for you lol D. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I always interpreted it that if I passed my test I got +2A total, +3 for ragnar or with him. It makes sense to me. The idea that I get the +1 without the test seems silly, as before I only got the +1 if I moved up to attack. I wont say you cant interpret it the other way, but it makes no sense to me and if I was the TO, Id tell you to stop being a get. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deedark Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 @ Mage Even though you purchased a piece of wargear that gives you a +1 attack if you countercharge Depends on what you define as countercharge, the act of countercharging as part of the combat or the act of rolling the leadership test to gain the USR bonus of +1 Your countercharge takes place even if you fail your leadership test for the USR, so I would argue I have countercharged therefore by rules of the pelt I get +1 attacks, thats what my 3pts are paid for. But again I see the validity of your arguement, so each to their own on this one and what is a GET? D. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Your countercharge does not occur if you fail your leadership test. Your defenders react move is the only thing that happens. There is nothing in there that counts it as assaulting or counter assaulting. There is a number of comments that say its rather different than an assault move. So please, show me where you find any reference to counter assaulting without making the test. A "Get" is someone whos being a punk, or trying to sneak off with something/ get away with something in a non malicious manner. If you play RPGs its like when they ask if they can have a reroll, when theyve done so thrice already and know you dont normally givem out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deedark Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Like I said I see your point to successfully countercharge and gain the bonus you have to pass a test so therefore you only get +1 for pelt on passing the test. I guess my interpretation of the word counter-attack or charge in the pelt rules, ment the act of striking back once assaulted, on this I'm probabley wrong, but I will say lot of 40K is about interpretation and watch 20 games you'll see 20 variations/interpratations on the rules and to be fair some people are just being Gets and in other situations the rules are not always clear or conflict with other rules, sometimes its just a genuine misunderstanding or mistake, no ones perfect. In my part of england you would call me a Git, no offence taken by the way D. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Well I can see it... but in some ways this can lead to the wargear being worthless as we no longer get the countercharge rule... just counter attack. It works perfectly well as it is now, and Id hate to see people muddy it. Does that make any sense? EDIT: Damn. On second thought since the move is exactly like our old countercharge move I can see the argument that if you have to move the model with a WP that you automatically get the attack, but that if you dont move it you dont.... wich would make it entirely seperate from counterattack. This could lead to some bizarre situations. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deedark Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Yes total sense muddy - rules - GW - all go hand in hand D. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1937957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullr Direfang Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 @ direfang because they do stack. hmmm is that not what I said, ie you wouldnt buy a pelt unless it stacked because you are not going to fail too many 9/10 leadership tests, and if as the OP friend said you also had to role a Leadership test to use the pelt why would you bother Less Ale for you lol D. i guess i just had a hard time understanding the way you wrote it. i have gotten a lot of sleep lately so i think i started merging word together... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1938090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Our GW faq clearly states that we are to ignore our rule for counter-attack and to use the definition from the universal special rules section of the 40k rule book (pg74). I thought I covered that aspect of the problem already?? G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164656-wolf-pelt/#findComment-1938109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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