master crafted weapons ?

[Ikken]

in a situation where a model with a master crafted weapon gets multiple attacks , and misses as few but hits with others on his initial role how does the re role work . is it like a twin linked weapon where you re roll all the misses , ?

or is it used like the rule says and you re role one failed role per player turn ,which I interpret to mean one dice . not every dice that missed.

 

for example a model with master crafted weapon assaults into CC and gets 4 attacks , misses 3 or the 4 attacks , do they

A ) re role the entire role ( all 4 dice ) and take the new result

B ) re role all 3 or the dice that misses ( like a twin linked weapon )

C ) re role onley one of the 3 missed dice .

 

 

 

on the once per player turn part of the rule ,does this mean once during the game turn ? which would mean that a model would only be able to use the option to re role once , say in the 1st half of the turn when that model assaulted , but not in the 2nd half of the turn when the opponent counter attacks ( or if a model was locked in combat , and the opponent goes 2nd )

 

or does it mean that the model can use the rule effectively when ever the model is in combat .

 

another question , when a model is using a master crafted weapon which dice can get rerolled ? Is it only the dice associated with the master crafted weapon , or can the dice that accrued from having other weapns get re roled as well ?

for example :

if a model has a master crafted bold pistol , and a CC power weapon , does he get to rerole the attacks from the CC power weapon,or just the bolt pistol ? ( in a CC situation ) or conversly ,if the CC power weapon is master crafted ,and not the bolt pistol , the model is involved in CC and gets the extra attack from the bold pistol in CC does he get to re role the miss from the bolt pistol ,or just the misses from the master crafted CC weapon?

[JamesI]

you reroll 1 failure.

 

You get it each player turn, so in your assualt phase, then your opponent's assault phase, then yours again.

 

If a model has a master crafted bolt pistol, he gets no rerolls in close. The reroll comes on shooting attacks.

 

If the power weapon is master crafted, you reroll one attack. You don't designate, these attacks are power weapon, this one isn't. All attacks are assumed to be the power weapon.

[drkwalker]

I don't have my rulebook with so I can't give you the specific ruling, but If I remember correctly (haven't played for ages) you can re-roll any dice that missed with your CC attacks, or in the case of rangesd weapons, any dice that do not hit, much like twin-linked weapons.

You do not have to re-roll hits.

Also, in a close-combat situation, a master-crafted pistol will NOT give you re-rolls. Master-crafting weapons with a shooting characteristic gives no benefits in CC, only when you shoot.

[Primarch Corax]

James has it bang on.

[Ikken]

ok so here is the wording on master crafted weapons :

pg 98 " A master crafted weapon allows the bearer to re-roll one failed roll to hit per player turn when using the weapon "

 

the way i have seen it used is like a twin linked weapon , any misses are re rolled . which I think is wrong according to the wording , the way I read it it should be only 1 dice that can be re rolled . makes a huge difference if you are only re rolling 1 dice vs many especially if they are power weapon instant kill type attacks .

I am new to marines , and don't want to become a rules lawyer , and challenge on every little thing , but the difference between the 2 interpretations is an easy game changer .

[JamesI]

No, it is not any misses. It is one miss.

[nighthawks]

I am new to marines , and don't want to become a rules lawyer , and challenge on every little thing , but the difference between the 2 interpretations is an easy game changer .

 

there's a huge difference between becoming a Rules Lawyer, in the negative sense, and learning and enforcing the correct use of the rules. someone playing MC as twin-linked is cheating, no matter how unintentional. the wording of the rule, in English at least, is not confusing: "one failed roll to hit." to reroll all failed rolls to hit would be a major game changer. this is worth calling the other player on; There is no exploitation of the rules if you do so - just the maintenance of the balance that exists (or is supposed to...) in the rules as written. learn the rules, and expect others to do the same.

 

welcome to the +OR+

[Grey Mage]

One Reroll, the wording hasnt changed significantly and theres nothing to show its got more than one at a time. Anyone who cant see that is being purposefully dense, or speaks english as a second language.

[chaplain_quint]

only one reroll per player turn ( your turn and his). bolt pistol is also a cc weapon and ads +1 to your attacks. If a boltpistol is MC than in my opinion you get one reroll in shooting and also one reroll in cc on your totall attacks.

[Dudley Nightshade]

This is a pretty interesting implication of the new rules for pistol weapons (BRB, pg 29). I had never thought about the wording: "In addition a pistol counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase."

 

I don't believe this would work if using a close-combat weapon with a special attack, however, since you cannot choose to use the "non-special" weapon in an assault.

 

Thoughts?

[Isiah]

I don't believe this would work if using a close-combat weapon with a special attack, however, since you cannot choose to use the "non-special" weapon in an assault.

Thoughts?

I'd say you'd be right. As an MC'd pistol is still a pistol (even if it does shoot better) so always counts as a normal cc weapon when used in conjunction with a special cc weapon. Special weapon characteristics take priority, the pistol just bestows the one bonus attack.

 

Yes by RAW an MC'd weapon gets to re-roll one failed to hit – but this doesn't stop it being a pistol – and that is the key.

[Frosty the Pyro]

only one reroll per player turn ( your turn and his). bolt pistol is also a cc weapon and ads +1 to your attacks. If a boltpistol is MC than in my opinion you get one reroll in shooting and also one reroll in cc on your totall attacks.

 

 

No you dont. The rules for master crafting say if the weapon can shoot, the reroll is only for the shooting part, even if it can be used in cc.

[Dudley Nightshade]

I used to think that too, but check the codex, page 98. Gone is the distinction between shooting and CC.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I used to think that too, but check the codex, page 98. Gone is the distinction between shooting and CC.

 

huh, yeah, pulled the old codex... Should hide that thing.

 

 

Well then its still limit of one reroll per player turn, so you cannot get it in both the shooting and assult phase, instead you get it in the shooting or assult phase.

 

 

But now it DOES bare the question of does this make it a "special" weapon. Does a master crafted bolt pistol mean you do not get +1 to attack if your other weapon is special (for example a power weapon). And would you have to chose between rerolling a to wound and ignoring armor in such a case?

[WarpSpawn]

I would have thought you would have to consider such a weapon as a special one. It is clearly not a mundane weapon, even though it does not do anything as fancy as ignore armour saves.

 

Such options do seem to be pretty thin on the ground though, at least in newer books.

[Isiah]

I would have thought you would have to consider such a weapon as a special one. It is clearly not a mundane weapon, even though it does not do anything as fancy as ignore armour saves.

Unless Mastercrafting says it turns a pistol into a special weapon I'd say not. All MCing signifies is that the weapon in question is better made.

[Hymirl]

I guess you could argue that it makes the pistol a special combat weapon. But that would mean if you wanted to use the pistol's re-roll in close combat you wouldn't be using the awesome combat weapon that the (special) character has in his other hand... remember you have to be fighting with a weapon to use it's bonuses.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I would have thought you would have to consider such a weapon as a special one. It is clearly not a mundane weapon, even though it does not do anything as fancy as ignore armour saves.

Unless Mastercrafting says it turns a pistol into a special weapon I'd say not. All MCing signifies is that the weapon in question is better made.

 

Thats just the thing, in 4th a master crafted pistol was still only a regular CC weapon. Sense they left that line out this time that means its a master crafted CC weapon, which has aditional rules to a regular CC weapon. Having aditional rules to a regular CC weapon is the DEFINITION of a special CC weapon. and if its a special CC weapon, it means it does not grant +1 attack unless coupled with an identical weapon or a regular CC weapon.

[chaplain_quint]

Ah man, we found another snag to discuss till the end of times :) !

[nighthawks]

Thats just the thing, in 4th a master crafted pistol was still only a regular CC weapon. Sense they left that line out this time that means its a master crafted CC weapon, which has aditional rules to a regular CC weapon. Having aditional rules to a regular CC weapon is the DEFINITION of a special CC weapon. and if its a special CC weapon, it means it does not grant +1 attack unless coupled with an identical weapon or a regular CC weapon.

 

I think the rule of special CC weapons - that they "enhance the wielder's combat skills and confer bonuses" does not cover a master crafted weapon, as it allows a reroll but does not otherwise change stats or have some special ability beyond what the weapon itself is. there's little reason to assume that a MC weapon suddenly becomes special - and thus does not detract from the +1 attack if the other CC weapon IS special. that's bound to be the "understood" definition. don't read to deeply, they don't hide easter eggs, nor do they vet the language all that well.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Thats just the thing, in 4th a master crafted pistol was still only a regular CC weapon. Sense they left that line out this time that means its a master crafted CC weapon, which has aditional rules to a regular CC weapon. Having aditional rules to a regular CC weapon is the DEFINITION of a special CC weapon. and if its a special CC weapon, it means it does not grant +1 attack unless coupled with an identical weapon or a regular CC weapon.

 

I think the rule of special CC weapons - that they "enhance the wielder's combat skills and confer bonuses" does not cover a master crafted weapon, as it allows a reroll but does not otherwise change stats or have some special ability beyond what the weapon itself is. there's little reason to assume that a MC weapon suddenly becomes special - and thus does not detract from the +1 attack if the other CC weapon IS special. that's bound to be the "understood" definition. don't read to deeply, they don't hide easter eggs, nor do they vet the language all that well.

 

There is no question that if a mster crafted pistol allows a reroll in CC it IS special. That is confiering a bonus.

 

The question is wheather a master crafted pistol allows a reroll in CC.

 

The more I think on it the more i think the "Pistol" rule grants a regular CC weapon regardless of anything else in the weapons profile (unless specificly stated othewise, like that guy who uses a plasma pistol as a powerweapon). The best example for that I can think of is "gets hot" Gets hot does not specify shooting attacks as such if you accept the use of master crafted pistols in CC, you would also have to accept taking gets hot saves for each 1 you rolled with a plasma pistol in cc. As the plasma pistol bit is nothing short of ludicrous, I think I am going to go with master crafted pistols do nothing more than a regular pistol in CC.

[nighthawks]

I think I am going to go with master crafted pistols do nothing more than a regular pistol in CC.

on that I can certainly agree!

[Solax]

What about multiple models? I don't know if I am doing it right - I didn't even think about it until I was lying in bed. I use Vulkan and a squad of 5 assault terminators with SS/TH and was wondering how does the master crafted work? Do i roll each terminator individual or roll all of them then reroll up to 5 misses?

[JamesI]

What about multiple models? I don't know if I am doing it right - I didn't even think about it until I was lying in bed. I use Vulkan and a squad of 5 assault terminators with SS/TH and was wondering how does the master crafted work? Do i roll each terminator individual or roll all of them then reroll up to 5 misses?

since each terminator gets 1 reroll, you would need to roll each terminator seperatly to make sure it was fair. Some terminators will hit with everything, so no reroll for them.

[Captain Malachi]

Multiple MC'd hammers: But rather than rolling them all seperately, I'd use 5 different colours/sizes of dice for expediency.

 

Is a MC pistol a special CC weapon: I think Frosty has a point, by RAI and any reasonable persons definition, it's not a special CC weapon, but by pure RAW I think he's right...... (sorry to bring that up again)