Power Armor Grey Knights Tactics

[minigun762]

I'm looking in an odd place for help with my Emperor's Children army, namely the Grey Knights.

Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters are almost identical to PA Grey Knights and so I'm hoping to get some insight into how Grey Knights are played for my own heretical reasons. A few key things I"m wondering:

 

1) How do you deal with having a Troop that costs 4x what an Ork Boy does and 1.5x a normal Marines? Do you play very conservatively to protect your scoring units?

 

2) Do you use Rhinos or footslog up the board?

 

3) Is the basic tactic always to kite the enemy infantry around while firing at them then absorb a charge and finish the job?

 

4) How do you get around the lack of anti-tank weapons in your basic squads? Lots of specialists or do you ignore heavy armor?

 

Thanks alot guys and gals!

[Prathios]

Well first off, you're a dirty heretic and may you pray the powers of the warp consume you and take you back to whence you came for should they fail you our justice will dole out a worse fate than any the ruinous powers could inflict. With that aside, Ooooh numbered questions!

 

1) PAGK require you to play very fluid, as described in our tactica "way of the water warrior" The PAGK justify their costs by being able to play the midfield with little retaliation. The only screen you can give them is their own long range weapon options and heavy support choices like Dreads and Land Raiders.

 

2) We foot slog, because our codex does not let us use Rhinos or Chimeras. We are forced to use LR or walk. Both are perfectly viable options depending on what you plan to achieve.

 

3) kitting and trimming an enemy is indeed the name of the game but absorbing the charge is not. If used properly a PAGK does not need to ever be in assault range but once the enemy force is weak enough the PAGK is the one doing the charging. They are proficient in close combat because of a S6 attack.

 

4) very simply, we dont. Dreads and LR are our only real options for anti-vehicle roles. So they get ignored a lot. Many people use melta bombs and at least two hellfire dreads. And a lot of players run super LR heavy armies. Its not uncommon for a GK player to field 3 LR in a 1500 point game, i personally find this ridiculous but its something some do.

 

Now having excitedly and cordially answered your questions I'll be off to prepare your demise.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

....and so perishes all foul traitors and enemies of the Imperium (ignites incinerator)

 

1) How do you deal with having a Troop that costs 4x what an Ork Boy does and 1.5x a normal Marines? Do you play very conservatively to protect your scoring units?

 

Boyz are actually 6pts base, so Noise Marines/GK's are actually slightly less than 4x the cost. With SM, they're 16pts basic so the gap is less than 2x.

 

In essence, you wear down superior numbers with massed fire. Noise Marines are actually better at this than GK's, because if you choose to sit still you pump out 3 x bolter shots per model. Given that most foot-slogging hordes (Orks/Nids) take about 2 turns to reach combat, that gives you about 2 turns of fire into the approaching horde.

 

2) Do you use Rhinos or footslog up the board?

 

Grey Knights are forced to foot-slog, our only mobile options are Heavy Support Landraiders.

With Noise Marines, it's a bit more dependent on your preferences. You've got the range and ROF to hang back, but the Noise Champion is very powerful up close (with his I5 power weapon and Doom Siren). I'd go for either;

 

8 x Noise Marines w/ sonic blasters, Noise Marine with blastmaster

(260 points)

 

That will pump out a staggering amount of bolter fire, and you've got the blastmaster for piercing 3+ armour saves. Stick that on an objective and watch infantry die (Deathwing/Plague Marines will give you problems though). You don't need to worry about mobility, just concentrate on pumping out the dakka and watching the enemy evaporate.

 

Noise Champ w/ power weapon+Doom Siren, 5 x Noise Marines w/ sonic blasters, Noise Marine w/sonic blaster+personal icon, Rhino

(255 points)

 

Same price as a standard-pattern CSM squad (10-man including Champ powerfist, dual melta, IoCG, Rhino), but much more effective at shooting+assaulting enemy infantry. Between their sonic blasters (which are essentially storm bolters when charging) and Doom Siren, not to mention the follow-up assault, they'll demolish anything not packing a 2+ save.

 

3) Is the basic tactic always to kite the enemy infantry around while firing at them then absorb a charge and finish the job?

 

No. You should only be moving Noise Marines if they're a mechanised assault team (like the 2nd option above) or if you need to get in range/re-position in support of other units (the 1st build I mentioned). Stay in cover, a number of units in 40k don't have frags/I5, so by hiding out in cover you can slow enemy assaults and reduce them to I1.

In the case of the mechanised assault, you should shoot something till it's badly mauled, then finish it off in close-combat. With I5 and the same hitting power as Assault Marines/Raptors (not to mention the I5 power weapon on the Noise Champ) you'll steam-roller most enemy units and win combat decisively.

 

4) How do you get around the lack of anti-tank weapons in your basic squads? Lots of specialists or do you ignore heavy armor?

 

Your Obliterators and basic CSM squads should be dealing with enemy armour (lascannon/multi-melta/twin-melta for the former, dual meltaguns for the latter). For heavy infantry you've got the blastmaster (or in the case of the assault build the Doom Siren+Champion power weapon).

 

 

Noise Marines and Grey Knights are similiar in some ways (they both can kite, both rely on wearing down opponents with shooting), but the similiarities end largely with how they shoot.

Noise Marines have better special weapons (Doom Siren on Champ, Blastmaster), plus they're a competent assault unit their own right with 3A's on the charge at I5 (4 with a power weapon on the Champ). They're also Ld10 and can carry a personal icon for bring in Terminators/Obliterators/Lesser Daemons.

[Aidoneus]

hehehe... It makes me happy when foul traitors turn to the Imperium's best-of-the-best for advice. Of course, if my avatar is any indication, I played Chaos for many years (and then 'Nids and Necrons) before finally ending up with Grey Knights, so I suppose it's not unheard of. :D

 

I do highly recommend Silent Requiem's tactica, The Way of the Water Warrior (stickied at the top of our forum). It's an amazing work, and guaranteed to help anyone who reads it. Noise marines especially, as you have pointed out, are rather close to GKs, and therefore easy to play with a Water style (or at least, some Water tactics).

 

To your questions:

 

1) Yes, I play VERY conservatively! First and foremost in my mind at all times it minimizing risk to my units. I typically hang back, stick to cover, and try to stay out of range of the scary stuff for as long as I can. Of course, eventually you need to take a risk, but even then it must be carefully planned and calculated so as to minimize the possibility of effective retaliation.

 

Land Raiders are good for this, but unfortunately you guys don't have Power of the Machine Spirit, and therefore I don't like your land raiders nearly as much. You might be able to get similar results by buying Rhinos and walking around behind them, using them as mobile Line-of-Sight (LoS) blocking terrain.

 

2) As has been said, we don't have transport options, and so are limited to using HS Land Raiders or nothing. Raider-heavy builds are in vogue these days, mostly due to changes in fifth edition, but also somewhat due to Silent's tactica (Silent himself has played Raider-heavy for years). We use our Raiders as mobile bunkers as much as anything, but they are also invaluable for putting our guys where they need to be. For Noise Marines, I'm not sure, but I would guess buying Rhinos for all your squads is a good idea. That gives you the choice to either use them as transports or mobile cover, either of which is quite useful (especially for less than 5/3 the cost of a noise marine).

 

3) Not always. It depends on your enemy. If you play an aggressive enemy then yes, you will want to kite in order to buy yourself enough time to whittle them down to a manageable level before they get into CC range. However, if you play against a defensive list (IG is a great example), you're going to need to be more aggressive. In that case, the best method is usually to advance along one flank, overpower them locally, and 'roll up' their lines. And in a third case, if you're against a very fast list, that tries to win by divide-and-conquer methods (biker space marines or mounted eldar, for example), you'll want to keep everything close together and mutually-supportive, and basically stand your ground wherever you can gain the most advantage (usually an objective). These three types of enemies are described as Fire, Earth, and Air respectively in Silent's tactica, and he goes into a lot more detail there.

 

4) A little of both, I suppose. It's true, Grey Knights absolutely rely on their HS options to deal with enemy armour. We can take inquisitorial storm troopers with meltaguns or ally-in sisters with meltaguns or IG with lascannons, but a pure-GK force (which is most like a pure NM force) needs those Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders. Luckily for you, you can take slaanesh-marked CSMs with meltaguns, oblits, predators, raiders, vindicators, daemon princes, termicide squads, and all manner of other tank-busting units. Just understand that your basic noise marines are anti-infantry only, and that you need those other units, and you'll be fine.

 

 

For what it's worth, I think a Noise Marine army is a lot stronger than a GK one if played with roughly the same tactics. When hanging back, you can throw out more shots, you have access to more ranged firepower, you can throw cheap rhinos in their way, and you have potentially better counter-assault when they finally get to you. On the offense, you have cheap transports, bikers and winged princes, and long-range support units. And at all times, you have Lash princes to move enemies right where you want them, whether that be close together for a pie plate or doom siren, close to you for a charge, further away to keep them from charging, or simply off of an objective.

 

But, c'mon.... we're just so much COOLER than you! :o

[ripath]

Ooooh numbered questions!

Everyone else may not get it but I have one question for you good sir: Deadpool?

 

On to the heretic, I regret to inform you that I can't give you the right information so I'll instead give you the wrong information and just turn my head if you understand my points.

 

1) You get it killed by not protecting it, taking too few models in the unit, Not supporting it with the rest of your army, and attacking things that its not effective against, any of these will work if losing is your objective

 

2)Being unable to quickly respond to new threats is a key element in losing. Transports prevent you from this, and protect your models from small arms fire.

 

3)Keeping your opponents at their maximum range and never putting them at a disadvantage is great for killing your own models, hitting your opponents so they can't strike back may make it so that losing is a little bit harder to achieve. Having low troops means that your always close to losing so don't fret about your small advantages.

 

4) Deployment of terrain is key in battles with armor. Moving in an open field away from cover is a sure way to kill your models. Moving them in cover and denying line of sight is not very effective for removing your models. Tank removal that fits into your normal battle plan Such as land raiders for grey knights which can transport and be a tank, makes losing models harder too. However if you took the good hammer Land raider and used it like a crusader losing models isn;t too hard.

 

No matter what using your limited models incorrectly is the surest way to lose.

[Prathios]

Ooooh numbered questions!

Everyone else may not get it but I have one question for you good sir: Deadpool?

 

On to the heretic, I regret to inform you that I can't give you the right information so I'll instead give you the wrong information and just turn my head if you understand my points.

 

1) You get it killed by not protecting it, taking too few models in the unit, Not supporting it with the rest of your army, and attacking things that its not effective against, any of these will work if losing is your objective

 

2)Being unable to quickly respond to new threats is a key element in losing. Transports prevent you from this, and protect your models from small arms fire.

 

3)Keeping your opponents at their maximum range and never putting them at a disadvantage is great for killing your own models, hitting your opponents so they can't strike back may make it so that losing is a little bit harder to achieve. Having low troops means that your always close to losing so don't fret about your small advantages.

 

4) Deployment of terrain is key in battles with armor. Moving in an open field away from cover is a sure way to kill your models. Moving them in cover and denying line of sight is not very effective for removing your models. Tank removal that fits into your normal battle plan Such as land raiders for grey knights which can transport and be a tank, makes losing models harder too. However if you took the good hammer Land raider and used it like a crusader losing models isn;t too hard.

 

No matter what using your limited models incorrectly is the surest way to lose.

 

 

Chimichanga? Body slide by 2?

 

I laughed my butt off reading this, I must admit its a very useful tactica for a chaos player and I strongly urge any followers of the ruinous powers to adhere to it.

[ripath]

Chimichanga? Body slide by 2?

Excuse me its body slide by one for the extra fun of playdoh! Want to know something funny? My eversore is painted as the merc with a mouth, I painted my Inquisitor similar to nathan askannison dayspring summers, and I still need to get a callidus assassin to paint up for the lady for whom things just fall her ways Domino. ;) The funny thing is the fact that they all fit into those stats very nicely. Now I want to go read the comic again! Oh well.

 

I strongly urge any followers of the ruinous powers to adhere to it.

For the Emperor! May these heretics be crushed for the good of mankind!

[minigun762]

Boyz are actually 6pts base, so Noise Marines/GK's are actually slightly less than 4x the cost. With SM, they're 16pts basic so the gap is less than 2x.

I was under the impression that PA GK's were the same price as Sonic Blaster Noise Marines. Oh well, the number is close enough ^_^

 

 

1) PAGK require you to play very fluid, as described in our tactica "way of the water warrior" The PAGK justify their costs by being able to play the midfield with little retaliation.

Thats a good way of looking at it, controlling the midfield. I hadn't thought about it in that light.

 

2) We foot slog, because our codex does not let us use Rhinos or Chimeras. We are forced to use LR or walk. Both are perfectly viable options depending on what you plan to achieve.

Wow really? I just assumed you could use Rhinos, hell they let Stormtroopers or SoB ride in them, seems VERY odd that you can't. Please accept my warp-tainted condolences.

 

I do highly recommend Silent Requiem's tactica, The Way of the Water Warrior (stickied at the top of our forum). It's an amazing work, and guaranteed to help anyone who reads it. Noise marines especially, as you have pointed out, are rather close to GKs, and therefore easy to play with a Water style (or at least, some Water tactics).

I've read it a few times now and try to keep up with the rather long topic. It is a great piece of tactical writing. One of my favorite aspects of it was the elemental analogies, in my previous Chaos Marine armies I typically find myself playing a moble Fire/Earth counter army however the natural progression of that idea was to make it become more and more Waterish.

 

Everyone else may not get it but I have one question for you good sir: Deadpool?

 

On to the heretic, I regret to inform you that I can't give you the right information so I'll instead give you the wrong information and just turn my head if you understand my points.

 

1) You get it killed by not protecting it, taking too few models in the unit, Not supporting it with the rest of your army, and attacking things that its not effective against, any of these will work if losing is your objective

 

2)Being unable to quickly respond to new threats is a key element in losing. Transports prevent you from this, and protect your models from small arms fire.

 

3)Keeping your opponents at their maximum range and never putting them at a disadvantage is great for killing your own models, hitting your opponents so they can't strike back may make it so that losing is a little bit harder to achieve. Having low troops means that your always close to losing so don't fret about your small advantages.

 

4) Deployment of terrain is key in battles with armor. Moving in an open field away from cover is a sure way to kill your models. Moving them in cover and denying line of sight is not very effective for removing your models. Tank removal that fits into your normal battle plan Such as land raiders for grey knights which can transport and be a tank, makes losing models harder too. However if you took the good hammer Land raider and used it like a crusader losing models isn;t too hard.

 

No matter what using your limited models incorrectly is the surest way to lose.

 

It only took 2 readings, but I think I understand you good sir.

 

But, c'mon.... we're just so much COOLER than you!

I don't know, the Galaxy's ultimate boyscouts vs the Galaxy's ultimate perverted ravers? Touch choice. ;)

[Aidoneus]

But, c'mon.... we're just so much COOLER than you!

I don't know, the Galaxy's ultimate boyscouts vs the Galaxy's ultimate perverted ravers? Touch choice. ;)

Boyscouts? Nonononono. You're thinking of Ultramarines! I can see where the confusions can come from [cough]drugs[/cough]. ;) But no, while ultrasmurfs are very much like boyscouts, we're more like... well, something like Navy Seals I suppose. We're the best of the best, and can pretty well kick anyone's @$$ six ways from sunday. ;)

 

So you go and enjoy your little dance party, you pink-suited little mutant you. :P

[Captain Malachi]

Boyscouts? Nonononono. You're thinking of Ultramarines! I can see where the confusions can come from [cough]drugs[/cough]. :P But no, while ultrasmurfs are very much like boyscouts, we're more like... well, something like Navy Seals I suppose. We're the best of the best, and can pretty well kick anyone's @$$ six ways from sunday. ;)

So sigging that ;)

[minigun762]

So overall, how useful is that 24" Bolter range? It seems that that is the main thing you're paying for.

I can see alot of use with foot sloggers, but against mechanized lists, how do you benefit from it?

[Aidoneus]

We shoot the transports with lascannons, missile launchers, meltaguns, plasma guns, and psycannons, then we use our 24" infantry-death guns to kill whatever comes out.

 

Really, transports are easy, 'cause you just kill it and then there's a squad stranded in the middle of nowhere. It's much harder to deal with units that are fast in their own right, like bikes. Bikes can run circles 'round us, and with T5 and power armour (or FNP for Orks), don't die nearly fast enough to our storm bolters or psycannons. In my experience, that's the hardest thing for us to deal with.

 

You, however, lucked out. Chaos has a plethora of high-strength AP2 weapons that are perfect for killing bikers by the handful. A couple oblits or vindicators or defilers in your list, and you're golden.

 

For what it's worth, we're not just paying 25pts/model for storm bolters. We get more attacks in CC than non-charging loyalist marines (becoming less-and-less a big deal), we get S6 attacks in CC, we're fearless, and we have all manner of nifty special rules, like shrouding and aegis and rites of exorcism. All together, what this amounts to is being better than spacies in all aspects of battle. In the movement phase, we do not have to decide between moving and firing to full effect. In the shooting phase, we positively rain bullets from a decent distance away. And in the assault phase, we hit hard at S6. In essence, we're paying a premium to be flexible, which lets us use Water tactics to play to our enemies' weaknesses, thereby winning games.

[Mutt-Man!]

I usually just rely on vindicators to split my enemy up for my noise marines to pick apart. Initative 5 kraks deal with most singular dreadnought arms before they strike on decent lucky occasions. Using the vindi's as cover chance givers for my mobile walking doom bringers of sonic mayhem is very fun. Though, going with GK, I tried some GK tactics that mirrored. Though used in a different list, mainly a loyalist marine list.

 

Typical 2x units of sniper scouts. 3 Vindicators. 2 units of GK's. Some attack bikes(they fit the theme), and of course the master of the forge with beam laser. It mirrored my chaos list very well, too well in fact with the longer range and faster fire support that is versitile. The many str6 attacks were not I5 when slapping dreads around, but they had double the attacks then the typical 1 per model at str6, and that got the job done just as well. Having toyed with that, it made me want to start a nemesis list to my noise list, but I stopped in favor of boosting my chaos. Though, is scary what you can do with loyalist allies to mimmick chaos armylists. (or rather the other way around for you guys)

 

Big plates divide the enemy. Makes foot slogging easy to pick the enemy apart. If you do math-hammer 4 bolter rounds are similar to a heavy bolter. If you move its 30" range and not 36" immobile, if you dont fight 4+ save models the AP makes no difference. So then with 10 GK's you got 5 heavy bolters that move, and being mobile they're technicly 6" shorter range but while being mobile, thats less melee for the enemy. One less shot then a NM in return for shrouding is the way to look at it.

 

I may make a dark paladin army, just for the heck of it. But not soon....