templargdt Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I've seen some people comment that the Grand Master is 'over costed'. Now, I know the Codex is something like 6 years old, but direct comparing the GM to a current space marine Captain with a similar loadout, I don't see it. Consider a Vanillia GM: 145 points. A SM Captain with Artificer Armor, Storm Bolter and Relic Blade: 148 points. The differences are that: the Captain has +1 WS, one less attack than the GM, and has a 4+ invulnerable versus a 5+ on the GM. The GM of course has the killer Force Weapon. If the Captain is in an assault with normal Marines and not terminators (something I have yet to see) he can sweeping advance. Am I missing something here? Frankly I think the Force Weapon is really good, I'd say for the points the two models are about equal in value, if not giving the Grand Master the edge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Yeah, what people are going to tell you is that our GM is bad because he does not have Eternal Warrior, completely ignoring the fact that no captain, master, librarian, master of the forge, chaplain, chaos lord, or sorcerer has it either. Another thing most people don't realize is that if ANY independent character takes a retinue (a squad from which he cannot detach), he cannot be picked out in close combat, and any insta-killing wounds can simply be sluffed off onto other members of his squad. So yes, you're absolutely right. Our GM is roughly the same power level as a new SM captain, equipped similarly. Granted, you may ask if he shouldn't be more effective, given fluff, but that's an entirely different debate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1938792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
revnow Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 You also have to consider that the GM can take some pretty awesome wargear given the current meta-game in addition to a retinue of GK termies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1938811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
saadeath Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Another thing most people don't realize is that if ANY independent character takes a retinue (a squad from which he cannot detach), he cannot be picked out in close combat, and any insta-killing wounds can simply be sluffed off onto other members of his squad. I believe you ment just in the shooting phase, because no matter what in CC if you are in base-to-base with a model you can hit them directly(i believe this is correct) and a Emperors Champion(black templars) can move through his own squad to get into base-to-base with any independent character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1938817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulReaver296 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 who wouldn't want a stronger better heavy bolter on a BS5 model? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1938821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Yeah, what people are going to tell you is that our GM is bad because he does not have Eternal Warrior, completely ignoring the fact that no captain, master, librarian, master of the forge, chaplain, chaos lord, or sorcerer has it either. Another thing most people don't realize is that if ANY independent character takes a retinue (a squad from which he cannot detach), he cannot be picked out in close combat, and any insta-killing wounds can simply be sluffed off onto other members of his squad. So yes, you're absolutely right. Our GM is roughly the same power level as a new SM captain, equipped similarly. Granted, you may ask if he shouldn't be more effective, given fluff, but that's an entirely different debate. Couldn't have said it better myself. Our GM is worth every penny of his point cost. Yes he should be considerably better for fluffy reasons but that isn't the debate at hand here. He's not overpriced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1938863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripath Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I have a problem with the GM having the same WS as a brand new Grey Knight. Thats like saying that he never got any better over the hundreds of years fighting daemons. other then that though, holocaust makes him a nasty for just about anything non completely cc dedicated. So in my opinion he is great except for the whole same WS as a normal knight thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1938906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Lost Soldier Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Another thing most people don't realize is that if ANY independent character takes a retinue (a squad from which he cannot detach), he cannot be picked out in close combat, and any insta-killing wounds can simply be sluffed off onto other members of his squad. I believe you ment just in the shooting phase, because no matter what in CC if you are in base-to-base with a model you can hit them directly(i believe this is correct) and a Emperors Champion(black templars) can move through his own squad to get into base-to-base with any independent character. No, in all phases. An IC that buys a retinue, or bodyguard or something similar, rather than joining a squad in the game, cannot be singled out in close combat, counting instead as an upgraded character such as a sergeant. I don't know the page number but it's in the BRB. It only really still exists in old codices, yay for us. The GM is a good deal for your points, but I'd argue that a BC with 2 extra GKT would be an even better deal for your points. Unless you use our antiquated Force Weapon rules, which I don't out of fairness (using new assault cannon rules etc.). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1938922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I went through this pretty thoroughly in the DH "Gotcha" FAQ thread. The post is in reference to the squad giving 2 KPs, but the last quote in particular covers exactly this topic. It's from page 48 of the BBB. Click here! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1939023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ominous Anonymous Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I think the real problem is that we really don't have any other option in an army where everything is really expensive between the admittedly cheap Brother Captain whose only real failing is that he only has 1 wound, and the GM who already comes with Terminator armor, upping his cost and can be given a retinue of expensive Terminators. Not to wishlist or anything but whenever I need to cut points in a list to make room I always wish I could start with an HQ in power armor at 100 points to work around...:tu: But no, for what the Grandmaster gets (an extra attack than a Captain, a Force Weapon, etc) I wouldn't call him overcosted. Just an expensive HQ in an expensive army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1939607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 @Ominous: You make it sound like the BC get's power armour, is that what you meant? 'Cos he's in termie armour too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1939626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 The reason I consider the GM overcosted is because for just 8 more points than your GM, I can field a BC and two GKTs, along with whatever you already bought for the GM's retinue. And a BC/2 GKT package has the same number of wounds as a GM, can't be instakilled, has three times the melee attacks and twice the number of ranged attacks. I just think that BC/GKT option is a much better buy for the points. Neither the force weapon nor the slight boost in I are as useful overall, in my experience, as having that extra resilience and combat power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1939735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I'd concur with number6. GKs have really the opposite problem, compared to what the Sisters have (that is, Palatines are useless compared to Canonesses when comparing what you get for those extra ten points). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1939741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greymeister Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I've always thought what you got for a GM was a steal for the points. Strength 6 force weapon. Spase Mareens get to pay plenty of points just to upgrade a power weapon to strength 6...but a force weapon? That's not weak sauce. Not to mention the amazing armoury that the GM's get to pick through, even though it is sort of a shame that they come in Terminator armor which limits what they can bring and how flexible they are deployment wise. My IG in 4th edition usually brought one as a counter assault of sorts, people always hated finding that surprise in one of my Chimeras ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1939745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I like the GM because for just over 100 more points you get a lot more bang with that GKT squad that comes out of your LRC and smashes face. And if they hit something with an eternal warrior that BC wont be as helpful. Plus having a 1 wound HQ is just weak, period. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1939750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanter Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I like the GM because for just over 100 more points you get a lot more bang with that GKT squad that comes out of your LRC and smashes face. And if they hit something with an eternal warrior that BC wont be as helpful. Plus having a 1 wound HQ is just weak, period. Everytime I see those kind of squads - juicy and ready for some GM force weapon - I try to get as far away form it as possible. The GM with his squad just will not kill it. Nobbikaz, libby with termis, chappy with termis, chaos-lord with termis even Belial and some cc-termis will just KILL the GKT. I tried it and saw other try it. I play with BC with hood and psibolter in a squad with 3 GKT with psibolter and one hammer. Nice wound allocation and some decend shooting - they can counter some low to mid cc-units. In the end I have them for style. I really think about dropping them an get some more PAGK, becaus they score, have very much more dakka and can run down enemies... ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1939914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanter Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 wyrd dobble post - forces of chaos are around ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1939915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEMOLISHER Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 wyrd dobble post - forces of chaos are around ^_^ *Fires the Incerator too purge the chaos* :D ;) I think the GM are the way too go, the BC's one would just is not my play style. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1939932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ominous Anonymous Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 @Ominous: You make it sound like the BC get's power armour, is that what you meant? 'Cos he's in termie armour too. No no, I mean that I wish we had the option of a less-expensive HQ that didn't only have 1 wound, where if we want something a little sturdier we have to pay a minimum of 141. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1940067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted April 3, 2009 Author Share Posted April 3, 2009 Cool discussion. Personally the GM is a good deal to me because I know at the local events I go to I'll face 2x Lash Demon lists. GM+SI out of a Landraider is an amusing thing to have against that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1940079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEMOLISHER Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Cool discussion. Personally the GM is a good deal to me because I know at the local events I go to I'll face 2x Lash Demon lists. GM+SI out of a Landraider is an amusing thing to have against that. :D Excellent! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1940084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuchinawa Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Man in a 500pt game, my GM just owned everything on his own. Grey Knights and Stormies just made some noise until he got into CC. But that's why I like him. Pretty naked when left alone, but get him in the right place at the right time and insta-kill anything is a win in my book. In larger games, he still fairs pretty well. He's just a beast, but can be taken down easily if used incorrectly. Also Aidoneus is 100% correct. Aww he can be insta-killed. So can pretty much every other non-special HQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1940098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greymeister Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Man in a 500pt game, my GM just owned everything on his own. Well considering he cost more than 1/5 of your army, I'd hope he'd be able to do that. :D Off topic, but Demonhunters are one of the toughest armies at 500 points, one squad of PA GK and some Storm Troopers and an Inquisitor with minimal retinue is SO annoying to kill with 500 points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1940108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Iapetus Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Alanter brings up some really good points about units you don't want to attack. When applied properly, the GM is nigh unstoppable. Just like most other uber units, they go down fast with the wrong application. I usually run a Psycannon, with BS5 hitting and wounding on 2+ most of the time at 36" is strong. And I always run a retinue (even more points), but it certainly helps the overall effectiveness and survivability. When running a GM, it's always ~300 points, never the 145...if I can't run him with at least a retinue, number6's advice is right. However - I almost always try to run him (1500+) so many MCs or ICs popping up on a regular basis, plus the rise in chaos (double lash, daemons, etc...) number6 - I get what you are saying at lower point levels, but even when you get 2000+ do you typically not take the GM? Or is there an another application where you would use him? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1942612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanter Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 I usually play 1850. There's never a GM around. That's just my way of gaming. Grey Knights seem to be some kind of shooty-counter army - not, because they suck in cc, but because theri are so many guys just doing cc better. Trying cc with Grey Knights against hard lists these days will fail. Nobbikaz, genestealers, deamons - they all really kick the Knights straight in the... After a decend amount of shooting most enemies will be not match for the Grey knights - like I said they are not bad in cc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/164813-is-the-grand-master-a-bad-deal/#findComment-1943076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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