Is the Grand Master a bad deal?

[Thaelion Hexis]

The only issue I have with using a Brother-Captain, especially in larger games, is when tooled up opposing characters make close combat. I have nothing to match their Initiative with. Plus, even with I4 units that a decent in close combat, thinning out the numbers before the I4 guys get to strike is a must for me.

 

Again, against those tooled up characters, a Brother Captain and his bodyguard may take a couple of wounds off from what is left of their squad. The Grand Master needs only score one wound to have a decent chance of killing it outright.

 

I think for 1500+, GM all the way. Maybe even down to 1000.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

In order to say whether or not the GM is a good price, you need to compare like with like;

 

Terminator Epistolary, force weapon, storm bolter, 'Might of the Ancients' and 'Quickening'

(180 points)

 

When compared to GM:

- -1BS, -1W, -1I, -2A

- Requires psychic test to become S6, but gains +1D6 against vehicles when activated (GM has S6 basic but no bonus against vehicles)

- Force weapon attack only inflicts ID, and has to choose between S6 or I10 (as the other psychic power) when doing so

- Can use two powers at once, and has wider selection of powers for free (GM can only use one, including his force weapon, and pays for psychic powers)

- Costs 35pts more

- Not Fearless

- Has free psychic hood but limited range (GM has 'Aegis' standard, can upgrade to unlimited range psychic hood and will still cost less)

- Can always be picked out in close-combat (GM can hide in retinue)

- Doesn't get 'Shrouding'

- Doesn't get 'Rites of Exorcism'

- Most powerful upgrade in shooting is combi-weapon (GM can take psycannon or incinerator)

- Can take storm shield for another 10pts (GM can buy 'Icon of the Just' or DH storm shield for 4+ invul)

- Doesn't unlock any other options (GM can take retinue of GKT's and unlocks GK Landraiders/Crusaders/Dreads for Heavy Support)

 

Captain, relic blade, storm bolter, artificer armour

(148 points)

 

When compared to GM:

- +1WS, -1A

- Relic blade is two-handed (NFW is one-handed, so when combined with DH storm shield GM gets +1A)

- Can make a Sweeping Advance (GM prohibited by his Terminator armour and retinue of GKT's)

- Not Fearless

- Costs 3pts more

- Doesn't get 'Shrouding'

- Doesn't get 'Rites of Exorcism'

- Most powerful upgrade for gun is hellfire bolter or combi-weapon (GM can take psycannon or incinerator)

- Has 'Iron Halo' standard (GM has to buy 'Icon of the Just' or DH storm shield to get same effect)

- Can always be picked out in close-combat (GM can hide in retinue)

- Unlocks Command squad in power armour (GM can take a retinue of GKT's)

 

The two SM HQ's are good in their own right, but the GM is better in combat than either. The Epistolary is a better support psyker (can cast 'Null Zone', 'Gate' squads or create a 'Force Dome' over vulnerable targets like Honor Guard), and has better offensive powers ('Might' can break open armour that even 'Hammerhand' can't, 'Avenger' and 'Smite' are both excellent). The Captain has higher WS, a better basic invul (the Iron Halo) and can run things down after winning combat, but he can't put out more than 4A's ever.

 

So, for the points you pay (plus the upgrades available) the GM is very well-costed. What kills you in smaller games is his near-mandatory retinue; it quickly adds about 200pts to the price and soon you're on your way to 400pts. In larger games this isn't as big a problem, as other equally expensive uber-units come into play.

 

 

As for the Brother-Captain...he's designed to cheaply unlock Dreadnoughts in smaller games, so you aren't completely screwed against mechanised armies. He's not meant to be an assault HQ; give him a psycannon and his 3-man retinue a psycannon, and provide fire support for your PAGK on foot.

In larger games, I usually ditch him altogether, as Brother-Captain Stern becomes a better choice (if I'm not splurging on a fully-equipped Grandmaster).

[Alanter]

No offence Rec. Darius. ;) But I think you are wrong there - even though "wrong" might not be the right word.

 

But there is just one thing you are telling us: "Trying to make a libby a GM is just as no-cost-effective as the GM himself." You show us that both are very expensive, but that does NOT show that either of them ist cost-effective.

 

If you compare the GM to the libby for cost-efficiency, then you have to max out both. The abbilities of the libby are greater than trying to handle chars in cc. He can get an 3++ save, gate of infinity and stormhammer terminators as squad. There is no impartial compare between units.

 

I don't like the Gm, because he is not the best cc. He isn't the best range unit, too, but range combat is less lethal than cc. I use my BC with his 3 termis just like any other tactical terminator squad. They walk and shoot. They have their moments when more cc power is needed and they can ride in a LR and get some foe.

[jakehunter52]

I've always thought the GM was worth it until late. Seeing number6's argument of pure wounds and attack increases, the recent statement from GW that nerfs our NFW insta-kill ability and the fact that he is isn't far superior to a chapter master (cause grey knights should be harder, faster, better, stronger {insert Daft Punk song here} than any normal SM), I would opt out for a BC. There are also a lot more attractive ways to spend points now, like on more PAGKs or getting a few upgrades that can make the difference and even things like initiative I wouldn't worry about since only SM and GKs where you have an attractive weapon option that doesn't make you strike last. And I think it is unfair to compare a GM to a librarian, yes, they can have similar abilities but I think that libbies were designed to serve a specific function and not a general killy guy (or more specifically, daemon killy guy) like our GM. Besides, I think that BC can get a bad rep cause of the one wound aspect. Reading over Stern's profile has given me renewed respect for this HQ choice.

[Prathios]

I've always thought the GM was worth it until late. Seeing number6's argument of pure wounds and attack increases, the recent statement from GW that nerfs our NFW insta-kill ability and the fact that he is isn't far superior to a chapter master (cause grey knights should be harder, faster, better, stronger {insert Daft Punk song here} than any normal SM), I would opt out for a BC. There are also a lot more attractive ways to spend points now, like on more PAGKs or getting a few upgrades that can make the difference and even things like initiative I wouldn't worry about since only SM and GKs where you have an attractive weapon option that doesn't make you strike last. And I think it is unfair to compare a GM to a librarian, yes, they can have similar abilities but I think that libbies were designed to serve a specific function and not a general killy guy (or more specifically, daemon killy guy) like our GM. Besides, I think that BC can get a bad rep cause of the one wound aspect. Reading over Stern's profile has given me renewed respect for this HQ choice.

 

In pure psychic power a GK GM would likely put most chief librarians to shame. GK use their psy powers to help them thwart the powers of the warp on a daily basis. So you rarely see them use flashy powers like a librarian but in pure power a GM would likely look down at Tigurius (if for no other reason that experience and lifetime achievement :tu:)

[number6]

number6 - I get what you are saying at lower point levels, but even when you get 2000+ do you typically not take the GM? Or is there an another application where you would use him?

It's been a long time since I fielded a GM in normal games. The only times in the past two years that I've put the GM on the table are:

 

1. Apocalypse games.

 

2. I just completed a 6-game campaign set during Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade. We played games at 1000 pts, 2000 pts, and 3000 pts. The GM was in every game 'cause it felt very appropriate to the theme. B)

 

Outside of that, in bigger games (e.g., 2000 pts), I put down more PAGKs and/or a shooty I-lord (and possibly an Eversor and Callidus assassin, too) ... and sometimes another GKT or two. But even at 2000 pts -- and even not using a single land raider -- I am very hard pressed to find the points available to field anything more than a BC (psycannon) + 4 GKT retinue (psycannon).

 

I have always been of the persuasion that more is more. :(

[jakehunter52]

I have always been of the persuasion that more is more. :(

 

 

What?! You mean Charmin has been lying to me all this time! THE HORROR!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

No offence Rec. Darius. laugh.gif But I think you are wrong there - even though "wrong" might not be the right word.

 

I think the phrase you are searching for is 'respectfully disagree, kind sir'. ^_^

But there is just one thing you are telling us: "Trying to make a libby a GM is just as no-cost-effective as the GM himself." You show us that both are very expensive, but that does NOT show that either of them ist cost-effective.

 

No no, what I did was break down the differences between the two. What my conclusions where that;

 

- All are viable assault characters (although the GM takes the crown for most attacks+S6 single-handed 'slays outright' force weapon)

- Epistolary has better support powers

- Captain has higher WS (which does make a big difference)

 

My point being that for his abilities and wargear, the GM stacks up very well to the 'closest cousins' he has in the Ultramarine book.

 

If you compare the GM to the libby for cost-efficiency, then you have to max out both. The abbilities of the libby are greater than trying to handle chars in cc. He can get an 3++ save, gate of infinity and stormhammer terminators as squad. There is no impartial compare between units.

 

No, because of several factors;

- Epistolary has to choose between S6+force weapon at I4, or S4+force weapon at I10 (if he takes 'Might' and 'Quickening' for powers). GM is always S6+'slays outright' (thus affording him killyness beyond what a Libby can do) at I5.

- Epistolary has to take psychic tests to boost himself to GM level (whereas GM only needs to take one psychic test, and that to insta-fry an enemy MC/character with his force weapon). More psychic tests = more oppertunities for failure/disruption by enemy abilities (like Runes of Warding or psychic hoods).

- The GM can buy an official retinue, which co-exist with him in the one HQ slot. An Epistolary is always an IC and can thus be picked out in close-combat (enough powerfist to the face will break his 3+ invul), and the stormhammer Termies chew up an Elite slot (and are thus an external factor to the HQ). The GM's retinue isnt, because they can be taken in the same HQ slot.

 

I'm not saying the Epistolary is useless, but for both staying power and raw killyness, the GM wins out. On the other hand, the Epistolary has better support powers and can ninja enemy characters at I10 (although T4+ 'Eternal Warriors' have to be killed the hard way, while the GM can just force-weapon them at I5 no problems).

 

I don't like the Gm, because he is not the best cc. He isn't the best range unit, too, but range combat is less lethal than cc. I use my BC with his 3 termis just like any other tactical terminator squad. They walk and shoot. They have their moments when more cc power is needed and they can ride in a LR and get some foe.

 

The GM is one of the best close-combat Marine characters in the game. He outclasses the generic HQ's and even some of the special characters, and his official retinue of GKT's gives him the unique ability to 'hide' from enemy powerfists/force weapons.

The Brother-Captain is for psycannon support really, as you point out.

 

Seeing number6's argument of pure wounds and attack increases, the recent statement from GW that nerfs our NFW insta-kill ability and the fact that he is isn't far superior to a chapter master (cause grey knights should be harder, faster, better, stronger {insert Daft Punk song here} than any normal SM), I would opt out for a BC.

 

A Chapter Master is near-identical the Captain, the only difference being he has 'Orbital Strike', doesn't unlock Bikers as Troops when on a bike, and unlocks 'Honour Guard' instead of a 'Command squad'. My previous breakdown simply needs those amendments, and the comparison would be largely the same.

GW hasn't nerfed our force weapons, because there has been no official errata on the matter. In the absence of an official change to our rules, we revert to 'codex > rulebook'. Hence, the GM can force-weapon anything in the game, provided he can wound it.

Brother-Captain for smaller games, GM for larger is how I view it.

 

And I think it is unfair to compare a GM to a librarian, yes, they can have similar abilities but I think that libbies were designed to serve a specific function and not a general killy guy (or more specifically, daemon killy guy) like our GM.

 

They're both assault psykers, and in terms of offensive powers the Libby can do similiar things to the GM (ie slap things around with a S6 force weapon). Epistolaries are however, as you allude to, designed for support rather than raw killing power, and thats where the Libby wins out over the GM (due to game-changing abilities like 'Null Zone' or 'Gate of Infinity').

 

Besides, I think that BC can get a bad rep cause of the one wound aspect. Reading over Stern's profile has given me renewed respect for this HQ choice.

 

Believe me, that 1-wound is always a pain. You only need to fail one save and poof, nearly 100pts down the drain (if you kit him out with psycannon+psychic hood, which is normal).

Stern is a good deal ('Hammerhand' for free is nice, 'Holocaust' is meh but again free), but he only has a 5+ invul, and like a GM you need to shell out for a decent-sized retinue to keep him alive. I would use him, but the GM is just so sexy for only a handful more points.

In pure psychic power a GK GM would likely put most chief librarians to shame. GK use their psy powers to help them thwart the powers of the warp on a daily basis. So you rarely see them use flashy powers like a librarian but in pure power a GM would likely look down at Tigurius (if for no other reason that experience and lifetime achievement biggrin.gif)

 

Yeah, hence the general lack of any 'over the top' psychic abilities for GM's or support powers. Like all Grey Knights, they focus their psychic energies inwards, using them to armour their souls against Chaos and for passive abilities like 'Aegis' and 'Shrouding'.

Chief Libbys are pretty powerful though, I'd say they rank about equal to a GM in terms of power. The two warriors just differ in how they utilise their powers.

It's been a long time since I fielded a GM in normal games. The only times in the past two years that I've put the GM on the table are:

 

1. Apocalypse games.

 

2. I just completed a 6-game campaign set during Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade. We played games at 1000 pts, 2000 pts, and 3000 pts. The GM was in every game 'cause it felt very appropriate to the theme. cool.gif

 

Outside of that, in bigger games (e.g., 2000 pts), I put down more PAGKs and/or a shooty I-lord (and possibly an Eversor and Callidus assassin, too) ... and sometimes another GKT or two. But even at 2000 pts -- and even not using a single land raider -- I am very hard pressed to find the points available to field anything more than a BC (psycannon) + 4 GKT retinue (psycannon).

 

I have always been of the persuasion that more is more. laugh.gif

 

I really think you should give him a go. At 2,000pts I find space for him in my lists. Something along these lines;

 

Grandmaster, NFW+SS, 'Sacred Incense', 'Hammerhand' power

GKT w/incinerator, GKT w/storm bolter, 2 x GKT's w/TH+SS

(374 points)

 

Chaos is fairly common, so you'll get mileage out of 'Sacred Incense', and 'Hammerhand' is very useful for ripping off DCCW's before they can swing (leaving the TH+SS guys to finish the job). If you face Eldar a lot you could drop both powers and take a psychic hood for the same price.

[number6]

I do face Chaos regularly. (Far and away my most common opponent.) And I admit to enjoying the GM in my Black Crusade games. That guy can be an absolute beast, to be sure! I just have a large collection of units that I like to use. When I build the GM to my personal specification (minimum is master-crafted NFW, sacred incense, unguents of warding, minimal retinue of 4 GKTs), I've plunked so many points into the unit that I can't afford to put down the other units that I also enjoy fielding. Inquisitors and assassins are great against Chaos, too!

 

Personal taste, mostly. Though even against Chaos, I've rarely been disappointed in exchanging the GM for a BC + 2 GKTs as a substitute. Given the way I like to field the GM, subbing in the BC/GKTs instead gives me 7 GKTs in the unit! That has proven to be enough potency in all but some situations that only crop up in Apocalypse games.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I do face Chaos regularly. (Far and away my most common opponent.) And I admit to enjoying the GM in my Black Crusade games. That guy can be an absolute beast, to be sure! I just have a large collection of units that I like to use. When I build the GM to my personal specification (minimum is master-crafted NFW, sacred incense, unguents of warding, minimal retinue of 4 GKTs), I've plunked so many points into the unit that I can't afford to put down the other units that I also enjoy fielding. Inquisitors and assassins are great against Chaos, too!

 

I'd drop master-crafting, its not really worth it. 'Ungents' is cheaper than a psychic hood, but you can't shut down buff powers and AOE powers (which are often more of a problem than offensive powers). 'Hammerhand' is always useful and pretty decent for the price, and I'd always take an incinerator on the retinue (both because it's awesome and for wound allocation shenanigans).

 

I've plunked so many points into the unit that I can't afford to put down the other units that I also enjoy fielding. Inquisitors and assassins are great against Chaos, too!

 

Oh definately, I do love Death-Cult, Eversor/Callidus, fire support Lords etc. I think however that the GM is really for pure GK's, as otherwise the Malleus stuff tends to chew up too many points (all worth it, but you can't do both).

 

Personal taste, mostly. Though even against Chaos, I've rarely been disappointed in exchanging the GM for a BC + 2 GKTs as a substitute. Given the way I like to field the GM, subbing in the BC/GKTs instead gives me 7 GKTs in the unit! That has proven to be enough potency in all but some situations that only crop up in Apocalypse games.

 

Fair enough. I'm kinda a sucker for monster IC's, so I always take the GM when I can. BC+large retinue for similiar points works just as well though against squads, the GM really comes into his own against tough multi-wound MC's or IC's with superior Initiative.