Space Wolves

[Grey Mage]

And I can see what your saying, but as I said... taking grenades on most of your GH squads is crazy IMHO for that very reason.

[Grimfoe]

Again, though. If we're talking about weaknesses in our current codex, that same grey hunter squad is over priced and not good enough at close combat to warrant the pricing. I had a squad of 10 charge a combat squad of vanilla tactical marines (including the sarge with a fist). At the end of the combat I lost by 2 wounds. I know that dice were not in my favor, but it shouldn't even be that close. We forfeit heavy weapons for close combat ability. Has always been that way. Why then does the vanilla marine sergeant have 2 attacks at no additional cost when we have to pay extra for a WGPL to do the same.

 

In second edition, GH's were WS 5. They should be again. Our characters should be WS 6 and our special characters should be WS 7. Long Fangs should be BS 5. If you made those simple adjustments, the pricing for each squad would not be so out of range. Even Blood Claws would only need a small adjustment to price if you gave them WS 4 and Furious Charge. I know we all fondly remember the extra attack and would like to keep it, but we need the initiative bonus for game balance. Maybe we could get a new berserk charge that gave us 2 attacks and +1 initiative. That would make them much more interesting to play and we'd see more jump packs. (as long as the price was about 5 points less each)

[clanfield]

the crackling fire light reflected in the glint of ulric's eye the old wooden chair creaked as he adjusted his rump on the ancient wood,but for all the cheer in the long hall and the aroma of the sizzeling elk upon the spit over the fire ulrics mind was far away,his thoughts drifted across the stars and time its self. once this old and wily long fang had been a pup in the blood claw storming an ork warlords lair on a crashed ork ship his brothers that day long gone since passed to the halls of russ were even now they waited for him.years of battle and upon a diferant world a jungle planet hot and steaming near mighty terra itself oh how he relisehed that pack of brothers each armed with diferant wepons of fell power to smite the xenos eldar scum and turn there meat and bone to jelly and gore. how that old plasma pistol had roared as it fired ,he could still hear the whirl of the dreadnoughts assult cannon its rounds sytheing through the alien undergrowth,and that day upon crows world when berek had made him a long fang oh what pride stired the breast to hold that old heavy bolter that had served the company oh so well for many a century.with a crack of burning wood ulric snaped back to the presant , he grunted and took a swig of his mead a single tear for friends of old running down his face mingleing with the mead as it ran from his chin,looking across the room ,there was young ragnar ,a grin showing those ever so long cannie's ,that lad will bring us glory ,the old wolf stood a little weakly and rasied his tankard ,the room took still and with a mighty voice he called all at once raiseing his tankard.

for russ and the wolf time .

the answering roaring howl afirmd ulrics faith there was still foes to slay and heros to carry forth the slaying

 

 

 

 

sorry iv rambled a bit i hope for tomorrow book for yesterdays codex is already legend

[Grey Mage]

Again, though. If we're talking about weaknesses in our current codex, that same grey hunter squad is over priced and not good enough at close combat to warrant the pricing. I had a squad of 10 charge a combat squad of vanilla tactical marines (including the sarge with a fist). At the end of the combat I lost by 2 wounds. I know that dice were not in my favor, but it shouldn't even be that close. We forfeit heavy weapons for close combat ability. Has always been that way. Why then does the vanilla marine sergeant have 2 attacks at no additional cost when we have to pay extra for a WGPL to do the same.

 

In second edition, GH's were WS 5. They should be again. Our characters should be WS 6 and our special characters should be WS 7. Long Fangs should be BS 5. If you made those simple adjustments, the pricing for each squad would not be so out of range. Even Blood Claws would only need a small adjustment to price if you gave them WS 4 and Furious Charge. I know we all fondly remember the extra attack and would like to keep it, but we need the initiative bonus for game balance. Maybe we could get a new berserk charge that gave us 2 attacks and +1 initiative. That would make them much more interesting to play and we'd see more jump packs. (as long as the price was about 5 points less each)

 

They do pay for the seargent... 26pts. How? 5x16=80, but the first 5 are 90pts... thus 10pts for the seargent.

 

As for WS 5 grey hunters... I dont see a reason for it. Sure, were good at close combat then so are the blood angels and their assault squads dont receive WS 5, nor vangaurd veterans. Its possible they might do this, but I cant see a game level argument for it.

 

That being said WS6 and BS 5 as above make sense to me. I dont think our BCs need any changes, but thats more of a personal opinion.

[Ryzouken]

Blood Claws are fine, Grey Hunters could use free bolters and maybe furious charge, but that's about it. Blood Claw Bikes are fine, but the jump pack option needs a price reduction attached. Maybe add in integrated Attack Bikes, though that might be too close to breaking the "no integrated heavy weapons" rules. Wolf Guard will probably see drastic alterations. We'll likely get a unit of Wolf Guard Bodyguards, a unit of Terminator Wolf Guard Bodyguards, and unit upgrades to Wolf Guard Leaders. Bodyguard units will probably have a restriction on when they can be taken, with Termie squads being "attached" (if not actually attached, then taken alongside) to Termie HQ's.

 

Transports need to be shared across the army like in almost every other codex. Kind of silly that the "crazy" Wolves adhere to transport regulations when even Ultrasmurfs threw them out the window. Exterminator could use a price drop. Assault Ramp Drop Pods would be way OTT, but fun to think about. Ven Dreads will probably see a price hike. It would be cool is Wolf Scouts can take a Land Speeder Storm as a dedicated transport. Hehe, an OBEL Land Speeder Storm, that'd be cool.

[Grimfoe]

Blood Claws are fine, Grey Hunters could use free bolters and maybe furious charge, but that's about it. Blood Claw Bikes are fine, but the jump pack option needs a price reduction attached. Maybe add in integrated Attack Bikes, though that might be too close to breaking the "no integrated heavy weapons" rules. Wolf Guard will probably see drastic alterations. We'll likely get a unit of Wolf Guard Bodyguards, a unit of Terminator Wolf Guard Bodyguards, and unit upgrades to Wolf Guard Leaders. Bodyguard units will probably have a restriction on when they can be taken, with Termie squads being "attached" (if not actually attached, then taken alongside) to Termie HQ's.

 

Transports need to be shared across the army like in almost every other codex. Kind of silly that the "crazy" Wolves adhere to transport regulations when even Ultrasmurfs threw them out the window. Exterminator could use a price drop. Assault Ramp Drop Pods would be way OTT, but fun to think about. Ven Dreads will probably see a price hike. It would be cool is Wolf Scouts can take a Land Speeder Storm as a dedicated transport. Hehe, an OBEL Land Speeder Storm, that'd be cool.

 

I don't disagree with this either. If you want to shy away from WS 5 Grey Hunters, Furious charge may be a way to go. I was thinking of the boost to WS because that's what they used to be. In fact, even Blood Claws had a WS 5 in second edition when I played before.

[Yeti]

I don't disagree with this either. If you want to shy away from WS 5 Grey Hunters, Furious charge may be a way to go. I was thinking of the boost to WS because that's what they used to be. In fact, even Blood Claws had a WS 5 in second edition when I played before.

Yeah, but things have come a long way since 2nd ed.

 

In the current context, WS5 on anything less than an HQ level model just doesn't fit in the current version of 40K. At the extreme, I could see it on Long Fangs ... for what little good it would do.

 

As for Furious Charge ... I don't really see it on GHs either. On BC, 100% in agreement though. For the GHs I'd see Stubborn. It works with both the bolter and assault versions of the GHs, giving them the resilience and versatility that is typical of the unit.

[Ryzouken]

Khorne Berserkers. WS 5 Troop choice.

[Grimfoe]

Khorne Berserkers. WS 5 Troop choice.

 

And it doesn't stop there. If you remember, our Wolf Guard were weapon skill 6 in second edition. One could argue that would easily translate to a 5 now. WS 6 was a command level WS at that time for many armies.

 

It's not really the WS I'm arguing for though. It's the close combat ability. Space Wolves make sacrifices in firepower to compensate for their superior close combat ability. The problem is that they don't really have the necessary superiority in close combat now. Likewise, their sacrifices in firepower aren't that great so they still make a viable army. I just think they've gone in the wrong direction since 2nd edition. If you're asking why I want a new dex, that's the reason. I'd like the see the Space Wolves become the Close Combat gods they were 10-15 years ago when I played them all the time. I don't care if you use WS mods or special rules like Furious Charge or wargear combinations that work particularly well. They just need to do something to make the wolves less like vanilla marines.

[clanfield]

i agree especialy now the pistols only shoot x1 the plasma has a real reduction in capacity in a hunter squad

also i liked the way in 2ndd they could have diferant wepons on each guy hand flamers and the such it made em very nasty

 

id like to see the long fang points come down a bit as well im fine with small squad size

as to wolf guard maybe give em power wepon and pistol as basic kit inclusive with upgrades to better options

 

blood claws are fine as they are

so are our viechale options id like to see updated drop pod rules in a place i dont have to argue about every battle

maybe some stuff on ironclads/siege dreads

 

but most of all id like to see new back ground and art work that isnt uber fanboi like in codex space marines but just good grit if you see what i mean no i waved logan at it and they ruled type stuff but real grity acounts

[Yeti]

I get what your saying Grimfoe, and I also beleive that grey hunters aren't what they should be and that they're overcosted. It's just that I don't see a statline with WS5 as the solution.

 

While SW as a whole are supposed to be very good at close combat, Grey Hunters specifically are (IMHO) a well rounded, versatile unit that can be equipped to handle a variety of situations. Personally, a better solution would be the return of the Wolf Totem or something like an ork warbanner (I think ... ). Basically an upgrade that gives a certain squad a boost in WS or attacks. While it may seem to be the same thing (WS5 is WS5 after all), the additional point cost makes the difference.

 

As for some of the examples of troops with WS5 ... sure they exist, but they're also specialized CC troops, which GH aren't. Khorne beserkers have been swinging that chain axe since the Horus Heresy ... they better have WS5!

[jamsight]

It seems we have hit the core of the problem pts and weopen load out this is why I started this thread to discuss the problem as a whole. The grey hunters are I think the right points for what you get yes I find it very tedious buying the frag granades and what not but (you will kill me for saying this) Codex space marines is a bit cheeky in that they get free weopens and only cost a pt more per marine. As for going toe to toe with a tactical squad your grey hunter should and can eat them alive anti- tank is provided by the long fangs with fire contol. The Ws 6 lord in the codex isn't much of an issue with me because I consider WTN manatory, but as for your point in that points are off you are right

[Grimfoe]

@ yeti:

 

I don't think we disagree here. I'm not necessarily advocating a WS 5 as I am open to anything else that works. I view the Grey Hunters as close combat specialists. As such, I think they should rout standard Tact marines during the first round of combat. If not, they should certainly finish them in round 2. This could be accomplished, to some extent by a higher weapon skill, but could as come from a special rule like furious charge, additional attacks, etc. Your idea of a wolf totem, etc would work fine here. It doesn't matter too much to my how they get there, but they should get there. GH's should be like Khorne Berserkers in that respect. (Broken record...) In second edition, GH's actually had a higher WS than Khorne Berserkers and could certainly stand toe to toe with them.

 

As a balance, they should be weakened somewhat in the firepower area. They can stand and shoot bolters just as well as any other marine, but they lose heavy weapons. In addition, I think it may be reasonable to limit their access to special weapons. Maybe take away plasma leaving them with only close range weapons. Melta and flamer. Maybe only allow access to pistols to limit their range.

 

Something like that. Again, I don't care that much about how we get there, I just want them to be more close assault oriented than their vanilla counterparts.

[kickme829]

simples. it's my age.

[Spacefrisian]

I put my money on the Same statts they have now and the reduction from 2 to 1 Special CC Weapon. The Pack leader will be standard included (options as Sergeant). Plasmapistol are most likely to be dropped.

 

Or

 

Greyhunters become more like Greyslayers (with added boltpistol and lowered in points) from 13th co meaning 2 midrange Special Weapons (that wouldn't be so bad) And Pack Leader (as mentioned above).

[clanfield]

its the flexability of the wolves lists that gives them there edge, grey hunters can be a good assult choice but they certainly shouldnt be limited to just that role thats blood claw country grey hunters in my opinion need to be mobile flexable and better in close fire support witha good assult for when its needed they certainly shouldnt have a heavy wepon

[Ryzouken]

What they could do, to make Grey Hunters have a stronger punch, is give them all Wolf Tooth Necklaces. Entire unit hits on 3's while the enemy uses normal WS calculations. That might be a touch OTT though.

[Quillen]

I don't see it that way at all. I never double fired my plasma pistols so I could care less if I could not double tap. I am always on the move. I always beat any squad I bump into with my grey hunter packs. usually 2 enemy squads. Often more.

 

As they are now, they are fine.

 

Rummor mill has it they will be Bolter and Bolt pistol & Close Combat Weapon in the new book. They will still have the counter charge rule. That's it and that would be fine. They would be more like Chaos in the attacks in melee, and be a bit better then the vanillas.

 

As to a heavy Weapon, why bother? It's pointless in a tactical squad. They are moving and fighting. To stop and sit one turn to fire one weapon at a tank or squad is a waste. It's good they do not have them. Which is why we can beef up 2 Grey hunters for melee. I use Plasma and Power Fist on 2 guys a pack. This totally stomps any thing that gets in their face.

 

About 4 weeks back I went to a tourny at a con and took on a Nid-Zilla list that had stomped everything it met. I spanked it with 2 Grey hunter packs and a Blood CLaw pack. So tell me how are we weak? I win almost all my games, or lose it by a hair. Or Codex is the strongest cause we still have so many options unlike the piece of crap 5th edition books. Trust ne when 5th edition for dumbies comes out it will make us just as worthless. So why rush it.

 

We all have our opinions thou. I can't see it that wat, but I under you have your view.

[Grey Mage]

I can definitely see WS5 wolf gaurd, and would be totally for it.

[Didacsoy]

I like Grey Hunters as they are. The only thing I think they need is a little cost reduction: being able to swap bolt pistol for bolter at no cost and some free grenades would just do it in my opinion. Wolf Guards' WS/BS of 5 (maybe I5?) would be nice and totally in character, but then you'd have to bump IC stats to 6 (unless maybe for Rune Priests and/or WGBLs) which I'm not against either!

 

Blood claws should be one or two points less each or be bumped to WS4 (still BS3, though). I think that for rules uniformity reasons we'll see the BC loose their current Berserk Charge in favour of Furious Charge, but I still don't know if I'd like that. Maybe coupled with the WS bump AND the price drop.

 

Long Fangs' leader cost seems outrageous if you can't give him a big toy. I think having him cost as a regular Long Fang and not letting him carry any special/heavy weapon might work too.

 

Overall, I don't think there is much wrong with the codex as it is, just some little adjustments are needed.

[clanfield]

i agree it is a fine dex a little more fluff would be nice but then iv been with the wolves now since 87so iv got it covered my self so far

[Grey Mage]

Something like that. Again, I don't care that much about how we get there, I just want them to be more close assault oriented than their vanilla counterparts.

2x the number of attacks and twice the ability to take power weapons isnt enough CC goodness for you? Grab a wolf gaurd then. Seriously we make vanilla marines crap their pants when they see us moving in the assault phase.