Army Composition Predicament

[Infidel]

Hey all

 

My friend was on an exchange trip to America the last 7 months, and I've been playing with some of his models, and now, he's back so I cant play with them anymore =(

 

But in the limited time i played a daemon army, I had so much more fun over my CSMs. I intend to build a new competitive army based on the models I got. Here's a brief list of what I have.

 

HQ: 2xKoS, might, musk 470pt

Troops: 2x9 Horrors, bol, 1x9Horrors, changeling: 474pt

Total: 944

 

. As you can see, i got 2 GDs that can pingpong down the line and 27 horrors.

 

The best players around is a Mech Blood Angel player and a horde Ork player and I'd like to have an army that stands a decent chance against massed ACs and lots of choppa/shoota.

 

So with the 556 points left over I intend to fill them with a combination of DPs, Grinders and Fiends/Flamers. What do you think is the best way to spend those points while remain highly competitive?

[Infidel]

Kind of answering my own question.

 

Some number bashing later:

 

Tzeentch DP: 80+Mark (25) + (Gaze 25) + Bolt (35) = 160

 

554 points gets me:

3 Tzeentch DP with 74 points left over

3 Grinders with phelgm or tongue with 74 points left

2 Tzeentch DP and 6 Fiends with 54 points left

2 Grinders with phelgm or tongue and 6 Fiends with 54 points left

3 naked Grinders and 3 flamers with 44 points left

1 Tzeentch DP + 6 Fiends and 2x3 Flamers with 4 points left

 

I think what my army lacks is that fast-running hard-hitting Slannesh-ness as I have no netts. I really want to have the squad of 6 fiends but i'm not entirely sure where they fit in. I'm always a bit hesitant towards the grinders because so often did i see them go down to those blasted lances or Lascannon the first turn.

 

Any thoughts you lovely daemon players out there?

[DuskRaider]

You need more combat oriented troops. I'd suggest Bloodletters or Daemonettes.

[Captain Malachi]

1 Tzeentch DP + 6 Fiends and 2x3 Flamers with 4 points left

I like that option the best, can't go wrong with fiends, flamers and princes. Best units in the book imo.

[==Me==]

Word to Cap.

 

Fiends are easily ==My== favorite unit in the whole book. Fast, hitty, bouncy, and ludicrously inexpensive.

[Skell]

3rd that choice "1 Tzeentch DP + 6 Fiends and 2x3 Flamers with 4 points left".

 

There all good, strong units.

[Infidel]

Thanks guys.

 

I agree on the lack of combat troops, but i had always been a solemn advocate for NOT taking combat troops. My old army had a lot of netts and i phased them out in favor of fiends and horrors.

 

Blood angels have Baals, MM jetbikes, DCs and Mech SM is just a tough opponent. The no-brainer solution to MEQs even with FnP Rending DC are letters. I remember some of them were complaining that breath "doesnt allow cover/armour save" and is different from power weapons where "armour saves are ignored" and can still take their FNP. I really cant see the difference there.

 

Alternatively, i can put the breath on the DPs and get 2 of them + fiends then get Pavane on the GDs.

Viable alternative?

[Infidel]

Had a game today, using a few chaos raptor units as a count-as for flamers.

 

The DCs went poof in one round of template death. Without exaggeration, his entire death company evaporated before doing anything. I ended up drawing because he managed to contest an objective with his assault bikes on the last turn, but at the end of turn 5 i had mopped up just about everything that wasnt faster than my keeper. He wasnt happy when he could only manage one turn of shooting before my fiends managed to connect to one of his tac squad and then bounce off to take out his devastators the next turn. One of my KoS disappeared to massed fire before she could do anything, but the other keeper bashed down his transports and his vindi and was still standing at the end of the game with 2 wounds left.

 

I still wonder though, why dont we put breath and might on a tzeentch DP and call it a day and forego flamers entirely?

[Captain Malachi]

I still wonder though, why dont we put breath and might on a tzeentch DP and call it a day and forego flamers entirely?

Because flamers can get off three at once for less points :eek

[==Me==]

And they fly, and have Warpfire as a backup.

[Infidel]

I remember seeing people posting in another thread discussing DP VS Grinders that Tzeentch DP with might makes for a great melee unit. The breath upgrade isn't that much more expensive and they still dish out a respectable amount of pain.

 

So mr. ==Me== and dear Capt'n, how would you go about building a God'Zilla list? Will 2 GDs and 3DPs in a 1500 pt game remain competitive? I mean, I've been doing alright in friendly games (granted, the people i play these games against are the best players around), but I cant stop wondering how it compares to Nidzilla with Flyrant. On paper I dont feel that we can really compare with them :/

[Captain Malachi]

Well here's my 1500 daemonzilla.

 

HQ:

Bloodthirster w/ blessing of the Blood God and unholy might.

Keeper of secrets w/ unholy might and soporific musk.

 

Troops:

6x plaguebearers.

5x plaguebearers.

5x plaguebearers.

5x plaguebearers.

 

Heavy support:

Daemon prince w/ mark of Nurgle, noxious touch, daemonic flight, iron hide, breath of chaos and cloud of flies.

Daemon prince w/ mark of Nurgle, noxious touch, daemonic flight, iron hide and cloud of flies.

Daemon prince w/ mark of Nurgle, noxious touch, daemonic flight, iron hide and cloud of flies.

 

Does pretty well to be honest, the thing is those three Nurgle princes can destroy any comparative MC they come across pretty quick (wounding on 2's is pure gold against nidzilla). Admittedly I've only played nidzilla once and we both managed to wipe out each others troops so ended up drawing, bloomin' good battle though. The Nurgle princes are definately the key against nidzilla though (or any MCs for that matter).

 

Oh, by the way, I'm finally convinced that the keeper rules :lol:

[==Me==]

I had something similar cooked up.

 

2 BTs with unholy might and blessing

4x 5 plaguebearers

3 Grinders with phlegm

 

It's a bit more on the shooty side with Grinders, but between them being fleet and the BTs they are sufficiently stompy.

[Infidel]

Here's an alternative. Really dont want to drop those fiends B)

 

HQ

2x KoS, Musk, Might

 

Elite

6x Feinds, might

 

Troops:

6x Horror, bolt, changeling

6x Horror, bolt

6x Horror, bolt

 

Heavy Support:

1 DP, MoT, Gaze, Bolt

1 DP, MoT, Gaze, Bolt

1 DP, MoS, Pavane, Breath, Iron Hide

 

Total: 1496

 

So i'll keep the slaaneshi DP around the horrors as counter-assault and to use pavane to push enemy squads back and breath...oh well, it's breath, and MCs can use both in one turn. Bunch them up for some sweet template of doom :lol:

 

What say ye? I know the troops are a bit on the low side, but they're more of a grab and hold force that can shoot back instead of PBs who just get shot at. I could always drop the fiends in favor for many more horrors (or even netts), but i really love these guys

[Captain Malachi]

Thing is, the troops aren't meant to do anything other than survive, and T3 with a 4+ vs T5 with a 5+ and then feel no pain as well? There isn't really any comparison. However, without the Nurgle princes I guess you need the killing power. Pavane + breath could work well, providing you can get in to position without wings.

[Infidel]

I agree completely capt. It's definately a beautiful list that will put a hurt on anything but PBs just dont sit well with me, in fact, all of nurgle just dont bode well with me ;)

 

Is it a good idea to trade get rid of the fiends then add bodies to the troops (or add a squad of flamers), put icons into the squads and perhapse trade a tzeentch DP for another slanneshi dp with similar configuration?

[Captain Malachi]

I agree completely capt. It's definately a beautiful list that will put a hurt on anything but PBs just dont sit well with me, in fact, all of nurgle just dont bode well with me :)

Fair enough, I like Nurgle but other people don't, nothing wrong with that.

 

Is it a good idea to trade get rid of the fiends then add bodies to the troops (or add a squad of flamers), put icons into the squads and perhapse trade a tzeentch DP for another slanneshi dp with similar configuration?

Honestly? I'm not sure. Fiends are great, but so are flamers and princes. If you do change something, I wouldn't get flamers, your keepers and horrors should be able to kill quite a lot of infantry per turn, while your Tzeentch princes can kill tanks fairly well.

 

What I might consider doing (and I'm not saying this is necessarily a good idea), is drop gaze from one of the princes, drop the fiend with might and put wings on the Slaaneshi prince. Yeah, you have a lot of points tied up in a single model, but it means you're more likely to get the charge off, which I've found to be quite important with princes. Especially as you should be going after characters with him anyway. Alternatively, just swap gaze on one prince for musk on the Slaaneshi one, that way you can do the ol' ping pong trick (not quite as effective without fleet, but still pretty good).

[Infidel]

Had another game today, this time against the boys.

 

Can I pavane then breath? He had agreed to let me pavane then breath, because we thought it's great to see a bunch of boys get up and dance, only to have their face melt off a second later, but I still thought i should clear this up.

 

Kill point, and i lost by 1. Very glad i was able to take out the lootas before they did any significant amount of damage. Pavaned them out of LoS on the turn i arrive and then got my charge in with KoS the next turn. I managed to only hit his flank and avoid dealing with the front of his army the whole time. Hid behind a patch of terrain that denied his truk from assaulting, popped it with my bolt on the DP on turn 2, and didnt take long for the horrors to gun the boys down.

 

His nob and warboss bikers are unkillable, maybe i was just unlucky but they manged to take out one Tzeentch DP and my KoS before finally biting the dust. I guess in the end i just didnt have enough killing power to take out all his boys. To my genuine suprise, the fiends are the MVP of the game, constantly dealing damage by counter-charging whatever big boy was tied in battle. Without flamers or the pie-plate from Grinders, the large squads of boys are hard to take out. KoS in this respect is definatly mroe effective than BS or other GDs, buggers right off after assault and bounce elsewhere (deffdread...yum),

 

Observations made from various games against horde ork and mech blood angel:

5 seems to be the magical number on the bolts. the first turn you arrive, the chance is you'll be out of range to use your warpfire on anything, but you can always hit something with the bolt. I found it to be of great importance to at least stun one armour on the first turn, otherwise it feels like it's all down hills from there.

 

Alternate list i'll be running in our next set of games:

HQ

2x KoS, Musk, Might

 

Elite

3xFlamers

 

Troops:

9x Horror, bolt, changeling, icon (for the flamers and Dps to home-in on) and squad made bigger

9x Horror, bolt, icon

 

Heavy Support:

1 DP, MoT, Gaze, Bolt

1 DP, MoT, Gaze, Bolt

1 DP, MoS, Pavane, Breath, Iron Hide, Musk, Might, Aura (counter-assault unit, hit n run, pavane, breath then charge them again)

 

1496

 

What do you think?

[Infidel]

So, looked over the vehicle models i got and contemplated over getting a converted Grinder with tank base and a pair of Defiler legs, I thought this list would be pretty cool. It lacks the template death of Flamers, but makes up for it with Grinders.

 

HQ

2x KoS, Musk, Might

 

Elite:

6x Fiends, Might

 

Troops:

6x Horrors, Changeling, Icon

6x Horrors, Icon

6x Horrors

 

Heavy Support

Soul Grinder + Phlegm

Soul Grinder + Phlegm

Soul Grinder + Phlegm

 

I took the icons to ensure that the Grinders arrive without a hitch, they are viable option for dealing with swarms and MEQs. The KoS i refuse to cut out and took out the bolts on the Horrors so that i wont waste a round of shooting on hitting tanks when their warpfire is tailored to kill anything but tanks.

 

So.....personally i think it's an improvement upon my previous list, but i'd like to hear what yall think befire comitting to buy the Grinders. :)

 

Cherrio

[Captain Malachi]

It just seems too light on troops, as it is you're relying on your opponent not seeing them as a threat and just ignoring them. The problem is, a smart player will see them as either an easy KP or an easy way to destroy a scoring unit. It doesn't take a lot to kill 6 horrors.

[==Me==]

It is a bit light on the Horrors, swapping out the Icons and maybe Might could give you some more. I'd look into dropping all the big stuff in your first wave, presenting 5 huge targets and 3 pie plates plus imminent assaults. It solves the Grinders' DS footprint problem by dropping them first, and lets you keep those scoring Horrors safer for longer.

[Infidel]

Mr. ==Me== is completely right, that is what i intend to do. Present them with much bigger and nastier target, and use the grinders as shooting units, and screen the horrors from assault. I guess i can keep one icon in case i dont get the wave i want and still guide my grinders to safety when they drop.

 

Sorry, late night here in australia and i need to be at the national gallery tomorrow for a presentation.

 

Thanks for the help guys, i'll get back to you asap

[Infidel]

Back, long day at the gallery.

 

So, i've been thinking. The overwhelming response to dealing with daemons is to bring lots and lots of dakka. Every army has something that shreds us, at least that's how the metagame here is like. These shots are s6 at most in the case of various nid guns and assault cannons/autocannon. So....

 

S6 Weapon without rending can't hurt grinders, so how about assault cannons?

 

18 assault cannon shots to kill a tz prince. 27 shots to kill a non-nurgle ironhide prince and roughly one in 22 shots will kill grinder outright.

 

Weapons with higher S will kill grinders even faster than they would DPs.....they are not that much better when it comes to weathering big guns, but that's the downside the comes with being a vehicle.

 

What they can do tho, is S10. They'll generally be better at squishing stuff. S6 DP and an average roll on D6 of 7 will confer a 13AP but that gets nullified against Monoliths, while a grinder still gance on a 4 and still penetrate on a 5+. They're inferior at dealing with walkers and normal AV 14s but that's a task for the KoS.

 

So, do you guys think i should drop fiends in favor of flamers for more bodies? by getting rid of an icon and flamers instead of fiends i free up 110 points which i can spend on another unit of 6 horrors, but fiends bring so much speed to the table and i'd hate to lose them :)

 

==Me== sir, you seem to be a solemn advocate of the Fiend awesomeness, how did they fare for you in competitive situations?

[==Me==]

Competitive? Well, it is Daemons after all so there's only so much you can do.

 

Fiends are phenomenal. They're very cheap, so you can field lots, and move quickly so you won't be exposed to much shooting. Tons of rending attacks, multiple wounds, and musk make them even better. They can and have done it all, killing off MCs, vehicles, wiping units, bouncing around to catch fast-moving enemies while slower elements mop up the leftovers.

[Captain Malachi]

I have to agree with ==Me==, fiends I find are the most well rounded of our units, with a bargain price tag. Just remember that unlike bloodcrushers, they don't have an armour save, so you need to use cover to your advantage where possible, but that's true of almost all our units.