Scout tactics

[greatcrusade08]

[center; background-image:url(http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/hq2.gif); background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 8px 2px; padding: 12px 8px 12px 8px; border: 1px solid #DDD; margin-left: 0 auto; text-align: left; color: #fff; text-indent:50px; font-size:130%; width:50%;">Scout tactics: Part 2 Tyranids.[/center]

Hey folks, this is the next instalment in the series of scout tacticas, it will remain open for the foreseeable future in order for all scout veterans to add tips and suggestions to it, the aim is to create a fully comprehensive guide for scout tactics against each 40k army, this article will focus on tyranids.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/hq2.gif); background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 8px 2px; padding: 12px 8px 12px 8px; border: 1px solid #DDD; margin-left: 0 auto; text-align: left; color: #fff; text-indent:50px; font-size:130%; width:50%;">swarm armies

Swarm armies are the stereotypical tyranid armies including large units of smaller creatures such as gaunts, hormagaunts and a few genestealer units, these armies will usually include a few tyranid warriors and a couple of large monsters for synapse.

Game plan

The main worry about facing this list is the large numbers of creatures that are capable of besting our own units in CC, so our main aim should be to slow them down, or seperate the army into managable chunks to be dealt with bit by bit.
In my own opinion this is the easiest list to contend with, the smaller number of monstrous creatures can be dealt with by sniper and ML fire, whilst the LSS teams and bikes harrass the weaker parts of the nid army.
Also if we can remove the synapse then we can make the smaller creatures run after 25% casualties.
The most important factors when playing against swarm armies, are massed fire and keeping yourself out of assaults, for this reason its best to combat squad your units to act as speedbumps, slowing down enemy units whilst only losing five scouts. Also its far better to lose five men and have the enemy at rapid fire range in your turn, than have them 'locked' in combat with a larger unit and being unable to shoot them.

Army selection

To face this army its probably best to put more scouts down, so thats 60 scouts of mixed weaponry:
A few snipers for MC’s but plenty of bolters for the real bread and butter work
A unit of CCW scouts would help for support once the enemy gets in close, and whilst they may suffer casulties, the main aim should always be to hold or stall enemy units until your shooting units can kill them off.
Its not recommended to use shotgunners against tyranids unless they are in a LSS, the 12” range of the weapon means you have to be in their charge range in order to fire at them.
Against swarm armies it’s a good idea to run combi-flamers on every sergeant and put as many heavy weapons on the board as possible. If you combat squad your units then you can arm your combat squads differently, having snipers further back and bolters infront with a combi-flamer in the bolter unit.
An LSS with heavy bolter or flamer could do very well in mopping up smaller units and acting as a distraction, in order to hold part of the enemies forces for a turn or two, Whilst scout bikes with grenade launchers are excellent at taking down large units of bugs and are more survivable if engaged in close combat, The S6 krak shots are also handy at killing Tyranid warriors and certain MC’s.

Tactics

A swarm army will always come to you, so its best to run an imitation gunline with combat squaded units, its far better to fire your basic weapons at the smaller creatures throughout the game, leaving the MC’s and synapse monsters for your snipers to deal with, the main aim must be to effectively neuter the most dangerous larger units.
In some instances leaving a 4 model hormagaunt unit in favour of shooting a large unit of genestealers is preferable even if the gaunts are in charge range, simply because the stealers are the greater threat and need to be reduced in numbers as soon as possible.
Also larger units have the potential to get in multiple unit assaults, this must be avoided if we are to have any success.
Bikers can be run in the gunline aswell, with both bolters and grenade launchers having the same range they would fit in well, plus they can provide the first speed bump if necessary, with Toughness of 5 keeping them in the game for longer, they would be a good choice to tarpit a large S3 Gaunt or hormaguant brood. The high mobility means they could get the charge in first if necessary to negate the charge bonuses of the enemy. This however must be a last resort, charging tyranids is not recommended unless you have no other choice.
The most important factor to remember is scouts set up last, by spreading out we do force the enemy to spread out aswell, but when outnumbered its best to have support from other units.
If we set up in two ‘camps’ on opposite corners of the board, we can effectively deal with the tyranids in waves, whilst retaining good lines of fire from snipers to the MC’s. By setting up in this way the tyranid player who set up first and probably evenly or bunched in the centre will have to decide to split their forces or go all out on one camp, normally this would depend on the location of his own units. Effectively this allows us to engage the tyranids in waves as some of his units will have to move further to reach us

Nidzilla

Nidzilla lists are crammed with monstrous creatures of all shapes and sizes, they will undoubtedly run lots of carnifexes and a few tyrants, backed up by the cumpolsary 2 troops choices, this is also a list where you will find some high strength ranged weaponry.

Tactics

A Nidzilla list is small but powerful, setting up to get decent firing lanes for your snipers from turn one is the best option to start with, the first goal must be to deal with the troops choices, especially if the game is objective based.
It will only take two or three turns for the big monsters to reach you, but once the smaller bugs are taken care of, you can concentrate all fire at a single MC at a time, killing them off slowly one by one, its best to run combat squads for this purpose, as his powerful MC's will be wrecking havoc whilst your trying to hold them back.
Against a low Initiative creature like the carnifex if he charges you and some of your scouts survive, use combat tactics to automatically flee and then rally and fire on him in your next turn. Allowing yourself clear lines of retreat this tactic can be effective and irritating to your opponent.

Army selection

Nidzilla lists contain many more MC’s than you can deal with, with snipers alone, the option is to spam sniper squads or tailor your fast attack units to deal with the threat.
Bikes grenade launchers can be fired at S6, which should be good enough to wound most MC's (except perhaps fexes) the only problem with these are they dont have the AP to negate the MC\'s saving throws, still in numbers these can be quite effective.
With Land speeder storms the multi-melta and assault cannon options are both viable, the assault cannon has AP4 but makes up for this with more shots and rending. The downside is tyranid shooting can easily destroy AV10 vehicles.
Another option is to include a decent CC character (see HQ article) and by doing so enables you to take a LR with twin lascannons for killing MC's.
Perhaps the best advantage with facing a nidzilla list is you usually face a smaller army with only a couple of units of troops to meet force org requirements, this enables you to get a little creative with your lists, taking a counts as Vulkan He’stan as your HQ for example, this allows you to re-roll melta attacks for your combi-weapons and LSS which more than makes up for scouts lower BS.
Sergeants combi-weapons could prove effective, now i have never advocated combi-plasmas as a viable choice, but against MC's it might be worth the risk for the rapid fire shots (getting 2 shots from a combi-weapon) as Plasma has both the strength and AP to hurt even carnifexes.

Genestealers

Genestealer armies are usually run with a broodlord and maxed out units of stealers, they have a long list of upgrades available, making them very flexible in dealing with most armies. Genestealers are probably one of the best close combat troops available and are capable of eating scouts without even slowing down.

tactics

You don’t often find pure stealer armies, as in my opinion (and many others) they are suited for tournament play, as opposed to everyday games.
The way to combat them is very similar to dealing with swarm lists, whilst a genestealer army will have less models they may have better saves or better toughness than regular gaunts and hormagaunts which means you will be killing less.
Combat squading your units is extremely important, as you could lose whole units to genestealer massed attacks, combat squadding minimizes your losses and leaves his units in the open at rapid fire range.
Unless he takes scuttlers, most of your army will set up last, again this lets us use the terrain and his set up to our advantage. In this situation id recommend putting the bulk of your forces close together, this way when a combat squad gets charged and eaten, the rest of your troops can use rapid fire to double the damage to the nids.

Army selection

Much like swarm armies, you have to have a lot of bolters in your list, id also recommend heavy bolters in your units to get more high strength shots in and because there are few in no MC’s for your missile launchers to deal with.
Units are best left cheap, as they will fall like dominos once the genestealers get amongst your troops, but I would recommend taking combi-flamers on all squad sergeants as tightly packed stealers cook very well.
Bikes again can be useful with grenade launchers and T5, but with massed rending attacks a land speeder storm is easily destroyed by genestealers so is not a good choice.

Telion

A stealer army is the only tyranid force that would make me consider Telion, the reason being that a broodlord is a very powerful close combat opponent, getting MC abilities whilst ‘hiding’ in his retinue of genestealers, he does have multiple wounds, but over a couple of turns Telion may be able to hurt him.
With Telion against stealers I wouldn’t normally advocate taking snipers, they are generally wasted against stealers, however the do have a longer range so a small five man squad may be of some use depending on the set-up and retaining a good firing arc towards his broodlords unit, ultimately this is down to personal preference.

TW Shooty lists

A shooty tyranid list is defined by its abundance of ranged weapons, some call this a tyranid warrior list as it normally contains a couple of five 'man' units, this will also have a few MC’s with high strength weapons and its mandatory troops choices, they will usually utilize screening troops to keep the more delicate tyranid warriors safe.

Tactics

A shooty nid army has the luxury of sitting back and waiting for you to move, their MC's weapons are reasonably long range so you cant rely on defensive tactics.
The key is to do as much damage as possible (you don’t need me to tell you that!), so shooting the tyranid warriors is pointless as they will receive cover saves from the screening troops. Its far better to remove the troops first, especially in an objectives game, and then shoot at the warriors once their screen has gone, this way you wont be losing valuable shots to cover saves.

Army selection

Against this list I would run large units of bikes, their mobility will allow you to take the fight to the enemy and will fair reasonably well against a few warriors and a weaker MC, especially if armed with a fist, the high strength grenade shots are perfect for taking down T4 or 5 warriors, with AP4 easily negating their saves.
Lots of snipers would fare well against this army, and because of the high strength guns it may be advisable to invest in some camo cloaks, especially if the tyranid player doesn’t play aggressively and waits for you to come to him.
Again with so many ranged weapons LSS' aren’t recommended for this list as they would be easily brought down.
For basic units, anything bar shotguns can have its uses, snipers are proven against MC's, bolters have the strength and range to do the job and would be best coupled with a ML for instant kills on T4 warriors and for wounds on MC's.
CCW scouts whilst a liability against most tyranid armies could be reasonably effective against a tyranid warrior unit that has been upgraded for ranged attack, an outflanking or infiltrating unit could cause some problems for your opponent, and paired with a decent HQ and maybe LR can form a reasonable 'uber' unit that can go toe to toe with MC’s (especially shooty ones)

Using non-scout units

As highlighted in previous articles, how we all define scout armies varies from person to person, so its entirely possible to add in non-scout units without damaging the theme of the force.
This ranges from having Shrike as your HQ and using assault troops or vanguard with infiltrate.
You can also add in land raiders with your HQ, and is a army selection choice i make myself quite often. The bonus of using high armour is that swarm armies find it extremely difficult to deal with them, its also a great way to bring in some good firepower to your lists.
I have heard of people using whirlwinds, dreads and thunderfire cannons as support units to a scout army and all can be of use against tyranid armies.

Tyranid overview

Author

I would like to thank Warp Angel and Olesh for helping me to write this article, they have helped immensely to fill the gaps in my knowledge about tyranids and without them this article wouldn’t have been very instructive.

Although this tactica is set up with playing tyranids in mind, it doesn’t always allow you to cater for all eventualities, your opponent may tell you he has a tyranid army but not always what kind of list.
Fortunately Warp Angel was kind enough to shortlist some ‘guidelines’ on how to deal with tyranid armies:

• Long range firepower of AP5 or better is your friend. 12" range is not enough.
  Assaulting them is generally a bad idea unless you can wipe them out immediately or nothing else is within 13"
  Focus your efforts on a small table area and eliminate whole squads whenever possible. With synapse, remnant squads are problematic.
  Wait until Turn 3 before dedicating anything but long range anti-tank to the big bugs. You have more immediate threats. And as bad as those big bugs are, they can't get into multiple assaults and they can only shoot/assault one squad a turn.
  Deploy in such a way that you have fallback avenues to maybe buy yourself an additional turn.
  Deploy in such a way that you deny a large enemy squad easy ability to engage in a multiple assault.
  

Hope this helps

GC08

[greatcrusade08]

Hey guys, please add any relevant material, all C+C welcome..

the next article will be Tau, probably in a couple of weeks..

 

GC08

[white radish]

Definitely a lot of Missile Launchers to "keep them honest" with Carapace upgrades. Don't let them go cheap on you with the base 3+ on the Tyrants & Carnifexes. Hellfire rounds might be fluffier against the bugs, but if you're just dropping Termagaunts in small packs, why? The Frag missile does just fine against packs of bugs. Take the Missile Launchers for AP3, and tell your opponents about it. You'll see less bugs overall due to the cost of Carapace and/or Warp Field (for the Flyrant), and mass Sniper fire will still be scary against the TMCs.

 

Tyranids are one army where I would rather have Tacticals just because of the access to cheap Rhinos and Razorbacks. Scouts suffer more due to the lack of transport than the reduced stats against the Tyranids.

 

I would take armor in a Scout list. "Fast" mobile tanks like Dakka Predators, Scouts spotting for Whirlwind barrages, and the like. Due to the lack of reliability in Tyranid anti-tank, you could even let your Whirlwinds sit out of cover & fire direct at times ;) Let the tanks draw some of the Barbed Strangler fire, which will form the bulk of Tyranid anti-tank... but in a list without tanks, your footslogging Scouts & Bikers will eat their share of pie plates.

 

Maybe one simple Annihilator (Predator with Annihilator Turret + Storm Bolter), because if you're frightened them into taking Extended Carapace, they will devote a lot of resources to taking out any Lascannons in your list.

 

Can Telion allocate wounds against a footslogger Tyrant with Tyrant Guard? I don't know, off hand, but I suspect he can. There's also the opportunity to take out specific Warriors with more threatening upgrades in a Warrior Brood... but Telion is mostly wasted against the Tyranids, as stated.

 

Land Raiders mostly scare the crap out of Tyranids. Slap Chronus in there, maybe with a Master of the Forge HQ & Servitor crew if you want to be obsessive about keeping your Land Raider clean, and kill off all the big bugs, and then don't bring the Land Raider again if the Tyranid player is your friend.

 

EDIT: Librarian as HQ will defeat the Zoanthrope's ability to throw the high power bolt at your tanks... and you should take tanks, IMO, but stop at Predators unless you want the enemy to cry... otherwise, the Psychic Hood isn't THAT useful. There's one or two other powers with rolls that can be affected (the one where they can hit you even if they die, maybe another one), but the high power Warp Blast is the only thing besides TMC cc attacks that is scary to a Land Raider.

[greatcrusade08]

Definitely a lot of Missile Launchers to "keep them honest" with Carapace upgrades. Don't let them go cheap on you with the base 3+ on the Tyrants & Carnifexes. Hellfire rounds might be fluffier against the bugs, but if you're just dropping Termagaunts in small packs, why? The Frag missile does just fine against packs of bugs. Take the Missile Launchers for AP3, and tell your opponents about it. You'll see less bugs overall due to the cost of Carapace and/or Warp Field (for the Flyrant), and mass Sniper fire will still be scary against the TMCs.

ML is AP2, and is of better use against MC's, for the smaller creatures the heavy bolter i8s better, simply because it can fire more shots, the template weapons are pretty equal, they will both wound on a two and have the same size template.

Ultimately its down to personal preference, but in the example list above i put in two of each, variety is good after all!

 

I would take armor in a Scout list. "Fast" mobile tanks like Dakka Predators, Scouts spotting for Whirlwind barrages, and the like. Due to the lack of reliability in Tyranid anti-tank, you could even let your Whirlwinds sit out of cover & fire direct at times ;) Let the tanks draw some of the Barbed Strangler fire, which will form the bulk of Tyranid anti-tank... but in a list without tanks, your footslogging Scouts & Bikers will eat their share of pie plates.

Im a little cautious about putting in too many non-scout units, it does tend to change the overall tactics of the scout force, they should have less vehicles, its all about the challenge.

 

Can Telion allocate wounds against a footslogger Tyrant with Tyrant Guard? I don't know, off hand, but I suspect he can. There's also the opportunity to take out specific Warriors with more threatening upgrades in a Warrior Brood... but Telion is mostly wasted against the Tyranids, as stated.

Yes he can, but with mulitple wounds and high toughness (Telion has strength 4 not stength X) he wont do more than irritate it.

 

GC08

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

ML is AP2

No.

A Krak is S8, Ap3.

[greatcrusade08]

ML is AP2

No.

A Krak is S8, Ap3.

 

Really, wow, ignore my crazy ramblings :angry:,

Dont know what made me think that??? , just chalk it up to typical GC08 madness :lol:

 

GC08

[Olesh]

Definitely a lot of Missile Launchers to "keep them honest" with Carapace upgrades. Don't let them go cheap on you with the base 3+ on the Tyrants & Carnifexes. Hellfire rounds might be fluffier against the bugs, but if you're just dropping Termagaunts in small packs, why? The Frag missile does just fine against packs of bugs. Take the Missile Launchers for AP3, and tell your opponents about it. You'll see less bugs overall due to the cost of Carapace and/or Warp Field (for the Flyrant), and mass Sniper fire will still be scary against the TMCs.

ML is AP2, and is of better use against MC's, for the smaller creatures the heavy bolter i8s better, simply because it can fire more shots, the template weapons are pretty equal, they will both wound on a two and have the same size template.

Ultimately its down to personal preference, but in the example list above i put in two of each, variety is good after all!

 

I would take armor in a Scout list. "Fast" mobile tanks like Dakka Predators, Scouts spotting for Whirlwind barrages, and the like. Due to the lack of reliability in Tyranid anti-tank, you could even let your Whirlwinds sit out of cover & fire direct at times :wink: Let the tanks draw some of the Barbed Strangler fire, which will form the bulk of Tyranid anti-tank... but in a list without tanks, your footslogging Scouts & Bikers will eat their share of pie plates.

Im a little cautious about putting in too many non-scout units, it does tend to change the overall tactics of the scout force, they should have less vehicles, its all about the challenge.

 

Can Telion allocate wounds against a footslogger Tyrant with Tyrant Guard? I don't know, off hand, but I suspect he can. There's also the opportunity to take out specific Warriors with more threatening upgrades in a Warrior Brood... but Telion is mostly wasted against the Tyranids, as stated.

Yes he can, but with mulitple wounds and high toughness (Telion has strength 4 not stength X) he wont do more than irritate it.

 

GC08

 

Krak missiles are S8, AP3, but by the time of this posting I predict someone else will have already corrected this.

 

For a friendly game, it is possible to gear your scout list acceptably towards certain objectives/opponents, but what I'm not really seeing so far is suggestions on how to account for a variety of strategies in an all-comers type list, mainly because I don't believe it's possible. From a tactica standpoint, this is extremely important. If the army list cannot play blind (i.e, against any possible opponent) with any reliability it is not an effective army list. Don't gear your army specifically to defeat one opponent or one type of opponent, gear your army so that you can handle any eventuality. I don't think scouts alone can do this, which makes them suspect in a tournament setting.

 

Let's critique your army selection part first:

 

Setup: Infiltrating everything works nicely, unless the opponent wins deployment choice and has a broodlord. Suddenly you have to dedicate quite a lot of firepower towards this very very dangerous unit that will EAT everything it gets into assault with. It's also possible that your enemy will simply deploy his army centrally and spread out as necessary during the game. As a basic deployment, there's not much about it that you can really take advantage of, because if you try to flank both sides you make yourself vulnerable to outflanking genestealers.

 

Land Speeder Storms: Like any other land speeder, these are glass cannons. Basic gaunts CAN hurt it (termagaunts fire S4 weaponry), just not in assault, and a decent sized squad of gaunts will take it down without too much trouble. Heavy flamers toast tyranids nicely but don't expect more than one turn of shooting out of it. At 60 points a pop, that's an expensive proposition. (Don't forget that the heavy flamer costs 10 points, to replace the heavy bolter.)

 

Scout Bikes: BS3 hurts. Astartes grenade launchers will do bad things to basic gaunts, but otherwise you're spending 20 points a model for T5 and a 12" move, and if you're close enough to rapid fire the grenade launcher expect to lose the bikes the next turn. The armor save still means for every two wounds that get through, you're probably failing one. Like against basic marines, every 8 gaunts that shoot will kill one of these bikes, and if you try and assault a hand to hand-optimized hive tyrant, be prepared for massive disappointment. Toxic miasma reduces your WS to 2 and makes you hit only on a 5+ - ouch!.

 

Sergeants: Combi-flamers is an acceptable, if boring strategy. Not without its flaws, but you're not likely to notice them. Power fists are likely to be a waste given that you should avoid an assault whenever possible.

 

Heavy weapons: Frag missiles deny basic troops armor saves, so relative to hellfire shells you get the same effectiveness against gaunts and hormagaunts (against genestealers, hellfire shells are superior to frag missiles but you should be firing your heavy bolter normally regardless). The missile launcher is also more effective against the heavies (particularly carnifexes who often have only 3+ saves), which makes the ML a better general-purpose choice.

 

Sniper squads: These look really neat on paper vs MCs. Only one out of every twelve shots are going to rend, though. You need 48 sniper shots to rend a hive tyrant or carnifex to death on average, assuming there's no cover saves involved (at which point the number jumps to 96!). Regular wounds from firing mitigate that somewhat (to ~36), but if you're fielding multiple full sniper squads for the express purpose of hunting MCs you should prepare for disappointment when the nidzilla list runs you over.

 

Close combat Scouts: Even the addition of Khan to a squad can't save this concept vs tyranids. Sure, you can mow down gaunts fairly handily, but CC-oriented tyranid warriors won't go down so easily and are hard to get the charge on, and trying to counter assault genestealers will get you killed. They go first and furious charge won't save you (Khan will hit simultaneously, everyone else still goes after the genestealers). Shotguns are meh; they're a nice concept but the lack of AP will be noticable.

 

Movement-related tactica: Trying to flank or get behind tyranids is risky because that exposes the flanking units to potential assault from the hive tyrants/tyranid warriors, all of whom are perfectly capable of handling themselves. If you try and outflank a significant portion of your army, expect to die, die, die. Your opponent knows what units and how many units are outflanking (since it must be declared), so only do this for units you can afford to kamikaze and start everything else on the table.

You cannot simply drive 12" in a circle; to gain the benefits of having moved your ending location must be different from your starting point (i.e, if you want to have moved 12" or more, you need to be 12" or more away from your starting spot at the end of your movement.)

 

Overall scout army-related tactica, using 1500 point example list: Limiting yourself to scouts, scout bikes, LSS, and a sparing amount of other units, you're screwed against tyranids, end of story. You can gear up in any combination under these restrictions and a standard tyranid all-comers list will trounce you most of the time unless you can manage to psych them out and split up their army. Nidzilla WILL crush you, but that's okay because frankly, your hands have been tied in this circumstance and you have done the best you can to compensate. Horde armies, you can counter with this list if you manage to control them acceptably, but don't count on it. There just isn't that much you can DO to deal with a well-rounded tyranid list, when limited to scouts and the related vehicles.

 

If you plan on utilizing any CC at all, you NEED Khan for furious charge; basic gaunts are Ws3 and I4, just like scouts, and you'll take too many casualties in CC without it otherwise.

 

Also, remember - when playing against tyranids, cover is mostly irrelevant. Tyranids beat armor saves by volume of fire, not by AP weapons. Unless you have camo cloaks you might as well sit wherever you have the best lanes of fire.

[greatcrusade08]

Thanks for taking the time to reply, all criticism is taken on board..

I am a little preturbed by this post however, obviously scout armies hold no weight with you, which is fine, they arent for everyone.

The most important point i have made in my previous articles is that scouts may not be suitable for a tournament setting, but then im the kind of player that thinks games should be fun, not win at all costs...

If more people thought the same and came up with unique armies, i beleive the game would improve.

That being said, the object of all these tacticas is to come up with the best ways to use scouts against certain opponents..

My first article the tenth tactica, is the best article to read in order to create an 'all rounder' list, and my own is included in the article scout tactics part 1: space marines and i have a 100% win record with my scout army up to now (i have had some luck i dont expect this to last)

 

Land Speeder Storms: Like any other land speeder, these are glass cannons. Basic gaunts CAN hurt it (termagaunts fire S4 weaponry), just not in assault, and a decent sized squad of gaunts will take it down without too much trouble.

If you get first shot with heavy flamer and 10 shotgun shots, there wont be enough left to cause damage.

 

Scout Bikes: BS3 hurts. Astartes grenade launchers will do bad things to basic gaunts, but otherwise you're spending 20 points a model for T5 and a 12" move, and if you're close enough to rapid fire the grenade launcher expect to lose the bikes the next turn. The armor save still means for every two wounds that get through, you're probably failing one. Like against basic marines, every 8 gaunts that shoot will kill one of these bikes, and if you try and assault a hand to hand-optimized hive tyrant, be prepared for massive disappointment. Toxic miasma reduces your WS to 2 and makes you hit only on a 5+ - ouch!.

I never advocated using them against a tyrant, that would be silly, but as you rightly said firing point blank into a big unit of S3 hormagaunts and charging in, means gainst need 6's to wound, and thats after they have been wiped out by grenade fire. I fail to see why they would get wiped out!

I respect what you are saying but if poepl pay attention to the points i make, they wouldnt be making these silly mistakes, its about using the right units against the right units, fastest horse against slowest and so on.

Name your cliche!!!

 

Sergeants: Combi-flamers is an acceptable, if boring strategy. Not without its flaws, but you're not likely to notice them. Power fists are likely to be a waste given that you should avoid an assault whenever possible.

you cant refuse to take fists because you WANT to avoid assault, a good gamer prepares for all evntualities, in the above list i put them on the more mobile elements and especially bikes, beacuse they are the reactive elements and are more likely to need them.

 

Sniper squads: These look really neat on paper vs MCs. Only one out of every twelve shots are going to rend, though. You need 48 sniper shots to rend a hive tyrant or carnifex to death on average, assuming there's no cover saves involved (at which point the number jumps to 96!). Regular wounds from firing mitigate that somewhat (to ~36), but if you're fielding multiple full sniper squads for the express purpose of hunting MCs you should prepare for disappointment when the nidzilla list runs you over.

Mathhammer is nonsense, sure we could show that they are useless at X and rubbish at Y, but compared to most other things in the codex they still remain the cheapest way to deal with MC's.

And whilst you say they need 48 to rend an MC to death, ive had 5 snipers do 3 wounds to a DP in a single turn, you have to take into account saving throws aswell as rend.

 

Close combat Scouts: Even the addition of Khan to a squad can't save this concept vs tyranids. Sure, you can mow down gaunts fairly handily, but CC-oriented tyranid warriors won't go down so easily and are hard to get the charge on, and trying to counter assault genestealers will get you killed. They go first and furious charge won't save you (Khan will hit simultaneously, everyone else still goes after the genestealers). Shotguns are meh; they're a nice concept but the lack of AP will be noticable.

I thought i covered this, i only advocated using this unit against gaunts, i mentioned Tyranid warriors and Carnifexes too, but to highlight the Initiative part, Khan is capable of wounding a fex out of 5 power weapoon attacks, and whilst a fex isnt a synapse creature and if out of range of one can be instakilled by khan.

 

Movement-related tactica: Trying to flank or get behind tyranids is risky because that exposes the flanking units to potential assault from the hive tyrants/tyranid warriors, all of whom are perfectly capable of handling themselves. If you try and outflank a significant portion of your army, expect to die, die, die. Your opponent knows what units and how many units are outflanking (since it must be declared), so only do this for units you can afford to kamikaze and start everything else on the table.

Flanking is a military term aswell as an in game rule (i said flanking not outflanking), what i meant was (and gave a description for) was getting the mobile elements to 'stall' the enemies units.

You cannot simply drive 12" in a circle; to gain the benefits of having moved your ending location must be different from your starting point (i.e, if you want to have moved 12" or more, you need to be 12" or more away from your starting spot at the end of your movement.)

Quote please, rule book page if possible, its not a rule im familiar with!

 

Overall scout army-related tactica, using 1500 point example list: Limiting yourself to scouts, scout bikes, LSS, and a sparing amount of other units, you're screwed against tyranids, end of story. You can gear up in any combination under these restrictions and a standard tyranid all-comers list will trounce you most of the time unless you can manage to psych them out and split up their army. Nidzilla WILL crush you, but that's okay because frankly, your hands have been tied in this circumstance and you have done the best you can to compensate. Horde armies, you can counter with this list if you manage to control them acceptably, but don't count on it. There just isn't that much you can DO to deal with a well-rounded tyranid list, when limited to scouts and the related vehicles.

I have to ask why you took the time to post, if all you are going to do is rip apart the whole basis of what im trying to do here, sure you dont want to play scouts and that shows, but some of us do and can have some success with them..

Tacticas should be about showing how we can maximise our potential, saying the whole idea of using scouts wont work is hardly constructive and tbh has no place here.

When i said C+C welcome, what i meant was point out my mistakes or add your own tips..

All you have done is to misquote me and completely miss the point of this article..

 

So although we have differing opinions, i would still like to thank you for taking the time to read my articles, perhaps you would get a better understanding of my aims and goals if you read all my related articles, they can be found in my sig...

 

GC08

[Olesh]

I have to ask why you took the time to post, if all you are going to do is rip apart the whole basis of what im trying to do here, sure you dont want to play scouts and that shows, but some of us do and can have some success with them..

Tacticas should be about showing how we can maximise our potential, saying the whole idea of using scouts wont work is hardly constructive and tbh has no place here.

When i said C+C welcome, what i meant was point out my mistakes or add your own tips..

All you have done is to misquote me and completely miss the point of this article..

 

So although we have differing opinions, i would still like to thank you for taking the time to read my articles, perhaps you would get a better understanding of my aims and goals if you read all my related articles, they can be found in my sig...

 

GC08

 

I'll go into a more detailed reply later, but the long and short of it here is that the tactics you are suggesting are, by and large, ineffective. I merely pointed out some of the reasons why they did not work and, for example with the sniper rifles, the math behind why not. Deny the averages however you like; they're still the averages for a reason.

[Warp Angel]

Land Speeder Storms: Like any other land speeder, these are glass cannons. Basic gaunts CAN hurt it (termagaunts fire S4 weaponry), just not in assault, and a decent sized squad of gaunts will take it down without too much trouble.

If you get first shot with heavy flamer and 10 shotgun shots, there wont be enough left to cause damage.

 

Let's assume you're close enough to get 5 under a template and you hit with 8 of your ten shotgun shots. That's We'll call it 10 dead gaunts, giving them 2 armor saves. Against a squad of 24, that's still 14 S4 weapons shooting back if you don't follow up with an assault. Hitting with 7, getting one glancing hit. And then at that point, there's no reason for the gaunts not to assault.

 

But the odds of you doing that before a Carnifex with a barbed strangler and vencom cannon wreck your speeder is pretty slim.

 

Scout Bikes: BS3 hurts. Astartes grenade launchers will do bad things to basic gaunts, but otherwise you're spending 20 points a model for T5 and a 12" move, and if you're close enough to rapid fire the grenade launcher expect to lose the bikes the next turn. The armor save still means for every two wounds that get through, you're probably failing one. Like against basic marines, every 8 gaunts that shoot will kill one of these bikes, and if you try and assault a hand to hand-optimized hive tyrant, be prepared for massive disappointment. Toxic miasma reduces your WS to 2 and makes you hit only on a 5+ - ouch!.

I never advocated using them against a tyrant, that would be silly, but as you rightly said firing point blank into a big unit of S3 hormagaunts and charging in, means gainst need 6's to wound, and thats after they have been wiped out by grenade fire. I fail to see why they would get wiped out!

I respect what you are saying but if poepl pay attention to the points i make, they wouldnt be making these silly mistakes, its about using the right units against the right units, fastest horse against slowest and so on.

Name your cliche!!!

 

Assume you get 3 gaunts each template. 6 templates. 18 gaunts. You're wounding 10 (I'm being generous). That leaves you with 14 to deal with. You're far from guaranteed to win the assault. And if you get bogged down in there, the tyranid player is probably going to countercharge with something nasty.

 

Sergeants: Combi-flamers is an acceptable, if boring strategy. Not without its flaws, but you're not likely to notice them. Power fists are likely to be a waste given that you should avoid an assault whenever possible.

you cant refuse to take fists because you WANT to avoid assault, a good gamer prepares for all evntualities, in the above list i put them on the more mobile elements and especially bikes, beacuse they are the reactive elements and are more likely to need them.

 

I agree with this strategy, though more often than not, there's zero bug units you want to mix it up with in CC. It's insurance rather than a weapon.

 

Sniper squads: These look really neat on paper vs MCs. Only one out of every twelve shots are going to rend, though. You need 48 sniper shots to rend a hive tyrant or carnifex to death on average, assuming there's no cover saves involved (at which point the number jumps to 96!). Regular wounds from firing mitigate that somewhat (to ~36), but if you're fielding multiple full sniper squads for the express purpose of hunting MCs you should prepare for disappointment when the nidzilla list runs you over.

Mathhammer is nonsense, sure we could show that they are useless at X and rubbish at Y, but compared to most other things in the codex they still remain the cheapest way to deal with MC's.

And whilst you say they need 48 to rend an MC to death, ive had 5 snipers do 3 wounds to a DP in a single turn, you have to take into account saving throws aswell as rend.

 

Ahem... All that your experience with 5 snipers doing 3 wounds means is that you have that experience. Over 100 games, you'll likely never repeat that performance and have plenty of turns where 5 snipers do no wounds at all. That's statistics. That's the mechanical probability of the d6. You're relying on luck rather than probability. Olesh is right and you can't discount his assertion. You can't rely on sniper weapons to do jack.

 

Close combat Scouts: Even the addition of Khan to a squad can't save this concept vs tyranids. Sure, you can mow down gaunts fairly handily, but CC-oriented tyranid warriors won't go down so easily and are hard to get the charge on, and trying to counter assault genestealers will get you killed. They go first and furious charge won't save you (Khan will hit simultaneously, everyone else still goes after the genestealers). Shotguns are meh; they're a nice concept but the lack of AP will be noticable.

I thought i covered this, i only advocated using this unit against gaunts, i mentioned Tyranid warriors and Carnifexes too, but to highlight the Initiative part, Khan is capable of wounding a fex out of 5 power weapoon attacks, and whilst a fex isnt a synapse creature and if out of range of one can be instakilled by khan.

 

What do you do against a list that has no gaunts? Just genestealers, tyranid warriors, hive tyrants, and carnifexes? What do you do when they are a shooty army that stands off more than 18" and makes you come to them? Shotguns require that you move into their assault envelope to use.

 

You cannot simply drive 12" in a circle; to gain the benefits of having moved your ending location must be different from your starting point (i.e, if you want to have moved 12" or more, you need to be 12" or more away from your starting spot at the end of your movement.)

Quote please, rule book page if possible, its not a rule im familiar with!

 

There's plenty of references to movement in the BRB being x number of inches from its starting point. I reply from a place where I don't have my rulebook handy, so I can't quote you page and verse, but if you take your incredulity to the rules forum, you'll get your answer.

 

You do realize, regardless of what the rules actually say, that Eldar and Dark Eldar can do the exact same thing as you're trying to do, and that in no battle report you've ever read will you find that they've done that. And it's not in ANY of their tacticas... I'm just sayin'...

 

Overall scout army-related tactica, using 1500 point example list: Limiting yourself to scouts, scout bikes, LSS, and a sparing amount of other units, you're screwed against tyranids, end of story. You can gear up in any combination under these restrictions and a standard tyranid all-comers list will trounce you most of the time unless you can manage to psych them out and split up their army. Nidzilla WILL crush you, but that's okay because frankly, your hands have been tied in this circumstance and you have done the best you can to compensate. Horde armies, you can counter with this list if you manage to control them acceptably, but don't count on it. There just isn't that much you can DO to deal with a well-rounded tyranid list, when limited to scouts and the related vehicles.

I have to ask why you took the time to post, if all you are going to do is rip apart the whole basis of what im trying to do here, sure you dont want to play scouts and that shows, but some of us do and can have some success with them..

Tacticas should be about showing how we can maximise our potential, saying the whole idea of using scouts wont work is hardly constructive and tbh has no place here.

When i said C+C welcome, what i meant was point out my mistakes or add your own tips..

All you have done is to misquote me and completely miss the point of this article..

 

I don't think he's misquoted you. I think he's told you that your list has serious issues and doesn't work like you think it will. He's a very experienced tyranid player and probably the toughest opponent I face on a regular basis. Putting on my Killhammer hat, my objective assessment of your army is:

 

Roles

===========

1) Hunters - You got that covered, but they lack D1 and D2

2) Defenders - You have that covered, but they lack K1 and D1

3) Killers - I can't see any true killers anywhere in this list.

4) Firebase - Your firebases are your defenders which means that you have little to no redundancy here and have made it easy for your opponent to make a targetting choice.

5) Cleaners - I like your cleaners. The land speeder storm with 5 guys in it is a brutal cleaner platform. But a cleaner should be taking on depleted squads, not used as a killer. It lacks the defense to do that.

 

Capability

===========

1) Anti Tank/Monstrous Creature - Even given generous luck with sniper rending, any list that has 2 or more monstrous creatures is going to hurt you... badly. There simply aren't enough turns in the game for you to reliably kill them AND deal with the other models.

2) Anti Horde - You're adequate here, but if you have to go anti tank/MC, you're in trouble.

3) Assault - Scouts are the absolute worst entry in the Marine Dex (except for Servitors) for CC. WS3 means you're getting hit a ton more than regular marines. 4+ save means you're dying 16% faster as well. Khan does not make up for this, since he can only be one place at a time.

4) Redundancy - Your primary platforms are relatively weak for everything. That said, your backups are the same as your primaries in most cases, so your ability doesn't degrade quite as badly, though you still lose effectiveness as you lose units.

 

Overall army K is low for it's points level. Overall army D is horrible... low AV, small squad size, 4+ armor save, WS3.... I don't even see a lot of S (flexibility).

 

It's fluffy, but it's not an army I'd ever play.

 

If I were fighting 'Nids with scouts, I'd be running nothing but 5 man squads with HB and ML, doing my best to imitate a gunline, spreading them out to force my opponent to spend multiple turns subject to my fire. My basic weapons would be a split between full bolters and sniper weapons. Shotguns dont' give me the range or AP I need to kill bugs quickly enough. Pedro Kantor would be my army commander. I5 isn't all that useful, but a 12" radius with +1A literally makes all of my scouts in that radius equal to CCW/BP scouts when I'm in the assault. Stubborn also makes me less likely to run when the Tyranids reduce my leadership by 2-4 points, since they can't do that in the first place. I'd also have more and larger scout bike squads as mobile reserve. Sergeants weapons would be split between combi-flamers and combi-meltas to overcome Tyranid armor saves.

 

That's my constructive criticism.

 

So although we have differing opinions, i would still like to thank you for taking the time to read my articles, perhaps you would get a better understanding of my aims and goals if you read all my related articles, they can be found in my sig...

 

GC08

 

You're the general though, and you know your playstyle and regular opponents best. I just suggest you actually listen to a tyrannid player's experiences with sniper weapons, eating scouts in hand to hand, and chewing up full Marine squads in shooting and hand to hand.

 

And links to my 15000+ words of Killhammer stuff can be found in mine and by searching "Killhammer".

[ShinyRhino]

All Mathhammer and Killhammer aside, this is a nice article on how to use an all-scout army. The all-scout army isn't intended to be the penultimate tourney winner list. But your tactics and ideas do make it seem like a LOT of fun.

 

How would you advise an all scout force on dealing with Scuttlers and those big scary bugs that deploy on a terrain piece at the beginning of the game? Deepstriking and/or infiltrating bugs seem like they could put some serious hurt on you from the get-go. Ideas?

[greatcrusade08]

Not much of this is constructive, this is a scout only army so stop moaning about them being too weak compared to x or y.

This is a scout only force...all comments should be made with this in mind.

This is not a tournament setting, scouts are a fluffy/fun army and could be competative, but are far from a tournament winning force.

 

Scout bikers against gaunts:

Let's assume you're close enough to get 5 under a template and you hit with 8 of your ten shotgun shots. That's We'll call it 10 dead gaunts, giving them 2 armor saves. Against a squad of 24, that's still 14 S4 weapons shooting back if you don't follow up with an assault. Hitting with 7, getting one glancing hit. And then at that point, there's no reason for the gaunts not to assault.

S3 gaunts against T5 bikers.....i think the bikers will do okay

 

Speeders

But the odds of you doing that before a Carnifex with a barbed strangler and vencom cannon wreck your speeder is pretty slim.

Which is why i suggested bringing them on in reserve/outflank, to give snipers enough time to deal with these issues.

Let's assume you're close enough to get 5 under a template and you hit with 8 of your ten shotgun shots. That's We'll call it 10 dead gaunts, giving them 2 armor saves. Against a squad of 24, that's still 14 S4 weapons shooting back if you don't follow up with an assault. Hitting with 7, getting one glancing hit. And then at that point, there's no reason for the gaunts not to assault.

Assault needing 6's to hit a speeder, then 6's to penetrate....id say thats pretty favourable, but then they have succeeded in stalling the advance of a big unit wouldnt you say?

 

TBH you are right about them being better used against partial units, i was thinking 12-15 gaunts in a unit as thats how i see them used, but its something that will get added.

 

You can't rely on sniper weapons to do jack.

Say what you want, but coming from someone who uses snipers ALOT!, im telling you that Mathammer is useless, you can never tell what the dice will show when you roll them, its completely random, its chaos..

you cant apply averages and probabilities to chaos, but then im not going to turn this into a mathammer debate....

If you know another way to beat an MC with scouts then write it, dont just discount the possibility!

 

What do you do against a list that has no gaunts? Just genestealers, tyranid warriors, hive tyrants, and carnifexes? What do you do when they are a shooty army that stands off more than 18" and makes you come to them? Shotguns require that you move into their assault envelope to use.

 

 

I agree with you here, i need to expand the reference to include the 'four' types of tyranid army

 

The movement issue (12" circle), may be a valid point of contension, but the underlying tactic was seemingly ignored....that speeders should always move 12" to avoid CC damage. (they need 6's to hit).

 

I don't think he's misquoted you. I think he's told you that your list has serious issues and doesn't work like you think it will. He's a very experienced tyranid player and probably the toughest opponent I face on a regular basis.

Sure he knows his army and i know my own.... how can he say my tactics wont work, when ive already used some to good effect?, sure he may be a tounament worthy gamer with a uber nid army....but im not that kind of gamer and it shouldnt always come down to 'uber' gaming, scout armies should be fun, this tactica was meant to be a guide to maximise thier potential (btw ive mentioned all this stuff at least 2 or 3 times throughout my articles)...

 

GC08

[greatcrusade08]

How would you advise an all scout force on dealing with Scuttlers and those big scary bugs that deploy on a terrain piece at the beginning of the game? Deepstriking and/or infiltrating bugs seem like they could put some serious hurt on you from the get-go. Ideas?

Scuttling stealers and LICTORS are by far the most dangerous units for scouts to face, infiltrating units take turns alternating deployment, so it will be tempting to change your game plan at the last minute to deal with them.

Ultimately it depends on who gets the first turn, but these units will be top of the list for destruction...

Of course cluster mines will be of some use in detering the crafty lictors, but ultimately it will be a big unit of bikes with fist and grenade launchers that i see doing the job here, that way they can get back to the lines before these units get supported by the faster elements of the nids. If supported by a LSS team with cerberus launchers they can use a won combat to inflict more fearless casulties, but ultimately anything that sets up within bolter range will get shot up well, dont forget his main force wont be in range until after they move, so if scouts get first turn, its all hands to kill the scuttlers...

 

This is just off the top of my head, as ive never faced this yet

 

GC08

[ShinyRhino]

Scuttling stealers and LICTORS are by far the most dangerous units for scouts to face, infiltrating units take turns alternating deployment, so it will be tempting to change your game plan at the last minute to deal with them.

Ultimately it depends on who gets the first turn, but these units will be top of the list for destruction...

Of course cluster mines will be of some use in detering the crafty lictors, but ultimately it will be a big unit of bikes with fist and grenade launchers that i see doing the job here, that way they can get back to the lines before these units get supported by the faster elements of the nids. If supported by a LSS team with cerberus launchers they can use a won combat to inflict more fearless casulties, but ultimately anything that sets up within bolter range will get shot up well, dont forget his main force wont be in range until after they move, so if scouts get first turn, its all hands to kill the scuttlers...

 

This is just off the top of my head, as ive never faced this yet

 

GC08

 

I wish i had the scout force available to help you test it out. There's a dedicated Nid player around here who likes a shooty Nid list, and uses a Lictor as a battering ram to silence gunfire for a turn or two to get the rest of his army into position alongside his Dakkafex.

Have you faced anyone who uses "Without Number" yet? I find this to be frustrating in objective-based scenarios. By the time you've whittled that large squad of gaunts down to zero, here they come again, often right near the objective you just pushed them off of!

I've not faced a Biovore, ever, but have you? A crafty Biovore owner might find it useful to scatter spore mines around the table in hopes of deterring your fast attack units, or at least channeling them somewhat.

[Warp Angel]

I thought that I did provide some constructive criticism.

 

You've got some great cleaner units to kick people off of objectives and finish depleted squads.

You need to spread out and keep your distance better, and include more heavy weapons/bolters.

You need to avoid hand to hand and close encounters.

 

I think your list is suboptimal for an all-scouts list. I think you're using the wrong army commander. And I think your strategies are doomed to failure based upon my experience with nids. I think ignoring statistical probablity is a bad idea. We both KNOW that there are games where you will roll well and games where you will roll like crap. But over time, there are mathematical LAWS that apply, and that will eventually overshadow luck.

 

Your statement that mathhammer is meaningless is factually false, even if it is subjectively true in your experience. If you wish to prove me wrong, start making a log of every roll to hit that you make with your sniper rifles. Record total hits vs. total shots, total wounds and rends vs. total hits. Report back when you've fired 100, 500, and 1000 sniper shots in a game that counts. Let me know if you rend more or less than the 1/2 x 1/2 x 1//3 (1/12 or 8.25%) of your shots over that many shots. We'll see whether math provides a tool for predicting outcomes or not.

 

My perception of what is going on here is that you don't want to hear that other people don't like your army list, tactics, choice of equipment, or your understanding of how your army will work against Tyranids.

 

I'm afraid that I have no constructive or critical advice for you beyond what I've already given. Because it really doesn't seem to matter what I say, you're going to hear what you want to hear.

 

Get back to me with the results of your in-game sniper statistics though. I'm curious if you're a statistical anamoly across 1000 shots and can rely on luck to get you through your games.

 

Peace.

[greatcrusade08]

I thought that I did provide some constructive criticism.

I DID acknowledge them when they appeared..

 

You've got some great cleaner units to kick people off of objectives and finish depleted squads.

Acknowledged

You need to spread out and keep your distance better, and include more heavy weapons/bolters.

As someone with experience, i can tell you that whilst spreading out does make them more survivable, it reduces thier effectiveness, scouts rely on support to win games. Also i cant put any more heavies in the list, since taking 5 man units as you suggested would leave me with 30 scouts instead of 60, not very smart.

You need to avoid hand to hand and close encounters.

Granted, but you have to plan for everything, also you need to delay the enemy as much as possible, so picking a couple of soft spots to strike could help.

You cant apply marine theroies to a scout army, they are completely different entities

 

Your statement that mathhammer is meaningless is factually false

So you didnt read the line about not debating mathammer, you need to realise that not all gamers use it.

My perception of what is going on here is that you don't want to hear that other people don't like your army list, tactics, choice of equipment, or your understanding of how your army will work against Tyranids.

 

I'm afraid that I have no constructive or critical advice for you beyond what I've already given. Because it really doesn't seem to matter what I say, you're going to hear what you want to hear.

 

Get back to me with the results of your in-game sniper statistics though. I'm curious if you're a statistical anamoly across 1000 shots and can rely on luck to get you through your games.

 

Peace.

 

EDITED: No point in making things worse, i was being too quick to comment, perhaps a better understanding of my aims are required.

 

GC08

[greatcrusade08]

I wish i had the scout force available to help you test it out. There's a dedicated Nid player around here who likes a shooty Nid list, and uses a Lictor as a battering ram to silence gunfire for a turn or two to get the rest of his army into position alongside his Dakkafex.

Have you faced anyone who uses "Without Number" yet? I find this to be frustrating in objective-based scenarios. By the time you've whittled that large squad of gaunts down to zero, here they come again, often right near the objective you just pushed them off of!

I've not faced a Biovore, ever, but have you? A crafty Biovore owner might find it useful to scatter spore mines around the table in hopes of deterring your fast attack units, or at least channeling them somewhat.

I could do with alot more info on these kind of units really.

As for without number, when its used the gaunts have to be under 8 points each IIRC, so if used they cant have strength upgrades, meaning the LSS teams will tear them a new one (they need S4 to hurt the LSS).

Plus in KP games they can prove to be a liablity to the nid player.

Biovores could be a problem, but dont the mines affect their movement aswell?, like i said i need more info, and my mate is borrowing my nid codex at the moment (i have access to a nid army, which is where alot of my experience comes from)

 

GC08

[ShinyRhino]

I'd have to lookup the Nid codex for the entries on Without Number and Biovores, as well. I'm just brainstorming things to plan against, really. I see Without Number a lot at my shop, because it really only hurts the Nid player in 33% of the games. And in those KP games, the Nids tend to keep them in the background, and use them as "Second wave" assault fodder. And if they do generate a KP, they're typically brought on at the faaaar end of the board, and just hang out doign their instinctive behavior thing.

[greatcrusade08]

Thats cool, i dont mind being 'challenged' ;)

Im still focussed on the Lictor, i see alot of potential problems with that one...

 

Im trying to add to the tactica, but the BBcode keeps changing itself, it doesnt like being edited more than once, its not co-operating..

 

GC08

[Warp Angel]

Submitted without comment so GC08 has a baseline of armies to work against.

 

Screening Ripper Swarm (size dependent on points)

2x 16 gaunts w S upgrade and Devourer

2x Shootafex (Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler)

2x 5 Tyranid Warriors with S upgrades, Barbed Strangler and 4x Deathspitters

Hive Tyrant with 2x Twin Linked Devourers

3 squads of scuttling genestealers (6 each depending on points)

 

First turn everything but MAYBE the Carnifexes runs.

 

Rippers form a very wide formation protecting the gaunts behind them.

The gaunts form a screen for the tyranid warriors who throw 12 S4 small and 3 S6 large blasts at 3 different units. The large blasts are all pinning.

The Carnifexes advance with a hail of gunfire, supplying 2 Venom Cannon shots and 2 high strength pie plates that cause pinning, the Hive tyrant being particularly deadly, able to shoot 8 twin linked shots at high S, able to kill 3-4 power armored marines a turn. Carnifexes focus their fire on vehicles, with the goal of stunning them or destroying weapons until they can be engaged in hand to hand.

 

Everyone near the hive tyrant suffers a -1 to leadership.

 

The Tyranids own the middle, anchored on the flanks by the Fexes. Attacks against the fexes will eat a genestealer assault from the flank or be subject to shooting and assault from the middle.

 

While you're dealing with that, the scuttling genestealers show up in inconvenient places and engage troops that would otherwise be able to hide in the table corners. The middle is NOT safe from the advancing horde.

 

Good luck.

[greatcrusade08]

thats a scary list!

Comes under the heading of "shooty army" i suppose.. and a list that has been catered for marines too!

This army is a very difficult list for scouts to face and to be honest it would have been alot easier had the scuttlers not been there.

LSS are pretty useless against this list as there are too many high S guns, so id run bikes as my fast choice, And its quite tempting to run 3 full squads maxed out, maybe skipping a fist in favour of a combi-plasma on a unit or two..this serves to bolster the Toughness incase the small scuttler or gaunt units come against them, and puts alot of S6 grenade launchers on the table.

Against alot of MC's is the only time when id run 5 man squads for the extra ML, with an even mix of bolters and sniper rifles.

With the TW's taking firepower over CC upgrades they could possibly be taken down by bikers.

I guess it comes down to how quick the Tyrants can be brought down. And also my choice of HQ

 

Thanks Warp Angel for the constructive help, despite earlier misgivings i do accept critique, just i abhore needless negative comments. i do however believe you have missed the point of my work completely..

Scouts may not be able to beat this Nid army or for that matter any army thats built for tourney games in mind, my only goal is to maximise thier potential against the average armies you find at the average gaming club.

Perhaps it would be far better to suggest alternate ways of dealing with nids, you seem to be well versed with them, so im sure you know what tactics work???

 

GC08

[Warp Angel]

(for the record, that's Olesh's core list and it's an all-comer's list, not one tailored against marines. It's equally good at wrecking Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Chaos, and Daemons)

 

The same things work against 'nids that work against all horde armies.

 

Volume of fire and assault/assault denial.

 

You have two turns to peel back the protective layering to get to the killing core. That's it. Turn 3 will begin the assaults and put most of your units in range of their heavy firepower.

 

You can't ignore the protective layering (in this case gaunts and rippers) since they'll either kill you on their own merits or tie you up long enough for other things to do the same.

 

You can't ignore the killing power of the warriors and MCs either, but most of the time your firepower early is most effective against the weak units. That means High S single shots or templates at the ripper swarms and bolter/HB fire on the gaunts. Shotguns, with their short range and lack of AP are problematic. Sniper rifles simply don't fire enough shots and don't allow you to re-open range and buy another turn of shooting. Flamers and combi-flamers are something that you get ONE shot with unless you're dumping someone out of a vehicle. If you're lucky.

 

Combat squadding buys you some time and leaves the bugs out in the open, but you're essentially sacrificing your units in bits and pieces.

 

The really good 'nid player could care less if you start mowing down his little bugs, or take out a genestealer squad. He's going for anhilation, every time. If he manages to control one objective with a gaunt squad remnant or partial genestealer squad, that's great, as long as he denies you the ability to control anything else. Smartly played, kill points are hard to earn against them as well since they'll be keeping pace.

 

1) Long range firepower of AP5 or better is your friend. 12" range is not enough.

2) Assaulting them is generally a bad idea unless you can wipe them out immediately or nothing else is within 13"

3) Focus your efforts on a small table area and eliminate whole squads whenever possible. With synapse, remnant squads are problematic.

4) Wait until Turn 3 before dedicating anything but long range anti-tank to the big bugs. You have more immediate threats. And as bad as those big bugs are, they can't get into multiple assaults and they can only shoot/assault one squad a turn.

5) Deploy in such a way that you have fallback avenues to maybe buy yourself an additional turn.

6) Deploy in such a way that you deny a large enemy squad easy ability to engage in a multiple assault.

 

These are general guidelines and not rules. Each opponent is going to be different, but fortunately most bug armies aren't nearly as brutal as Olesh's in my experience.

 

My original advice of choosing a different loadout than what you originally applies regardless of the type of tyranid army you're facing. Even T7, 5 wound, regenerating, extended carapace carnifex die to massed bolter fire... eventually.

[greatcrusade08]

1) Long range firepower of AP5 or better is your friend. 12" range is not enough.

2) Assaulting them is generally a bad idea unless you can wipe them out immediately or nothing else is within 13"

3) Focus your efforts on a small table area and eliminate whole squads whenever possible. With synapse, remnant squads are problematic.

4) Wait until Turn 3 before dedicating anything but long range anti-tank to the big bugs. You have more immediate threats. And as bad as those big bugs are, they can't get into multiple assaults and they can only shoot/assault one squad a turn.

5) Deploy in such a way that you have fallback avenues to maybe buy yourself an additional turn.

6) Deploy in such a way that you deny a large enemy squad easy ability to engage in a multiple assault.

 

These are general guidelines and not rules. Each opponent is going to be different, but fortunately most bug armies aren't nearly as brutal as Olesh's in my experience.

 

My original advice of choosing a different loadout than what you originally applies regardless of the type of tyranid army you're facing. Even T7, 5 wound, regenerating, extended carapace carnifex die to massed bolter fire... eventually.

 

I think this is where we are tying each other in knots, we are using different frames of reference for how we see the game and the kind of games/armies we play..

This is important becuase i need these tips from more 'hardcore' gamers to help write this thing.

And i appreciate your help no-end, i really do, if its ok, with you id like to add some of this to the article..

 

Thanks GC08

[Warp Angel]

Everything I put on the BnC is fair game for someone else to snag and place elsewhere. Part of this community is giving each other ideas. Use what you'd like.

[greatcrusade08]

Much obliged thank you.

 

GC08