Scout tactics

[Marlow]

Screening Ripper Swarm (size dependent on points)

Hive Tyrant with 2x Twin Linked Devourers

 

the Hive tyrant being particularly deadly, able to shoot 8 twin linked shots at high S, able to kill 3-4 power armored marines a turn. Carnifexes focus their fire on vehicles, with the goal of stunning them or destroying weapons until they can be engaged in hand to hand.

Nice to see someone using Rippers! On the Hive Tyrant Front each Devourer is Assault 6, for a total of 12 shots all Rerolling 'to hit' and 'to wound' which is going to give you about ten saves each turn...

 

The other main 'nid unit is theee Zoanthrope throwing out an AP 3 Blast Template. They are able to have the Psi Scream power so you could be up to -4 for all Leadership tests (-5 if both Hive Tyrants take it).

[Olesh]

I could do with alot more info on these kind of units really.

As for without number, when its used the gaunts have to be under 8 points each IIRC, so if used they cant have strength upgrades, meaning the LSS teams will tear them a new one (they need S4 to hurt the LSS).

Plus in KP games they can prove to be a liablity to the nid player.

Biovores could be a problem, but dont the mines affect their movement aswell?, like i said i need more info, and my mate is borrowing my nid codex at the moment (i have access to a nid army, which is where alot of my experience comes from)

 

GC08

 

Without number requires that the gaunts be 8 points or less. Typically, Without Number is placed on spinefist gaunts to get a cheap 8-man squad that only costs 64 points and can never be permanently removed from play. It sits on an objective and if it gets forced off, it comes back on next turn at full strength and does it again. I don't find it to be terribly useful; some players swear by it. The 8 point minimum means that you can buy toxin sacs for your spinefist gaunts and still get without number, but I've never seen anyone bother. The squad's there to take or contest an objective and to provide ablative cover, not actually kill anything.

 

Spinefist gaunts are indeed a minor liability in kill point games, but the solution is to keep the squad in reserve, bring it onto the table in cover (but OUT of synapse), and lurk it every round until it gets shot at. A creature like gaunts or hormagaunts that starts the turn out of synapse range can choose to lurk, which means it can't move (or assault) but can still shoot and benefits from an increased cover save (and is not a scoring unit for that turn). If the lurking squad is then SHOT at, it can also take cover which gives it an additional increase to its cover save and pins it for the next tyranid turn. It's difficult to kill a squad in the backfield that's doing nothing but getting a 3+ or better cover save from everything you shoot at it (except, naturally, flamers and the like).

 

There are two types of gaunts you are going to see; spinegaunts are cheap as dirt. You can get a squad of 20 for 100 points, they have S3 weapons that are twin-linked but single shot. The other gaunts are termagaunts, which are also cheap as dirt but slightly more expensive than the spinegaunts. Termagaunts have fleshborers, which on a basic gaunt will fire at S4, and reroll failed wound rolls. 90 points for a squad of 15. Basic termagaunts require no upgrades to be able to shoot down a speeder. Sure, they can't hurt it in an assault but they have better odds of shooting it in the first place (50% chance compared to 16% in the assault), and with reroll to wound they don't need toxin sacs. They've got about a 1/3 chance of wounding on even something T7, which isn't that great but it's something. Not bad for a 6 point model.

 

Not many people field biovores; they take a precious heavy support slot, a full squad is worth a whole three kill points, and are relatively fragile against anything that wants to take them down. Also every time they fire they give up a kill point to the enemy. Absurd, but that's GW's official stance on the matter.

 

Warp Angel did remarkably well remembering my list from memory, At 1750 points there'd be a second hive tyrant, a squad of three zoanthropes, the gaunts would be basic termagaunts (fleshborers, not devourers), and the tyranid warriors would have twin-linked devourers mixed in with the deathspitters in equal numbers.

 

Ffor those who are unfamiliar with tyranid weapons, in basic terms, tyranid guns work based on the strength of the model firing them. They have other attributes as well, including shots equal to the base attacks of the firing model, but a full summary is probably against the rules.

 

For a full constructive summary, let's look at what each squad does instead, and how to kill it.

 

Hive tyrants are big baddies, with four wounds, typically firing 12 shots at BS4 and S5, twin-linked and also rerolling failed wounds. They are also the equal of most characters in hand-to-hand. How do you kill it? It's T6 and has a 2+ save, and maybe also a 6+ invulnerable. Your sergeants can take combi-plasma or plasma pistols, which deny the 2+ armor save and are probably the only way you're going to hit it in shooting. Alternately, despite my previous pooh-pooing of sniper weapons, the only thing your sniper rifles are going to have worth shooting at is the hive tyrant. You probably have sniper rifles, being a scout army, so this is the place to use them, but don't rely on them. You need plasma to make it count. Early on hive tyrants are often hiding behind tyranid warriors, to gain a cover save against the heavy weapons that can reach them from turn one. Dedicated CC characters or sergeants with power fists can take down a hive tyrant, but it's risky. Winged hive tyrants are usually equipped to get into assaults quickly and win one assault after another. Sometimes they don't have warp field and are vulnerable to krak missiles, though - ask your opponent to be sure before the game starts.

 

Tyranid warriors as I field them would be firing a single large blast (S4, pinning), two small blasts (S6), and 8 twin-linked shots that reroll failed to wounds (S4). Some tyranid players use all deathspitters, or kit them out for hand to hand, but they're a formidable shooting unit at the cost of a basic squad of 10 marines, and break open light tanks, transports, and handle most troops on an even field in assault. They're the shooting equivalent of terminators, and throw out a higher volume of firepower while being more fragile. Warriors are two wounds apiece and usually have a 4+ armor save as well as a 4+ cover save from intervening gaunts. They are almost always protected by a screen of gaunts or rippers, but warriors die to volume of fire more than anything else. Shoot them with a lot of bolters if they're hiding behind gaunts, or shoot them with heavy bolters if you have stripped away their fleshy meatshields. Heavy flamers work nicely as well, but don't expect to kill or even cripple the squad unless you can get the entire squad at once or multiple times in succession.

 

Genestealers are among the best basic CC troops in the game. About the only thing you can do, as scouts, is shoot them in the face and charge them before they charge you. Outflanking genestealers threaten an area within 18" of either table sides, and they can run onto the table directly into an assault within that range if they get lucky with their D6". Flamers and bolters are all you need to kill them, but the trick is catching them before they get into an assault. Tyranid players try and balance their assaults so that the genestealers are always in the middle of an assault on the opponent's turn, but if you stay out of their immediate reach and shoot them they die really quickly to even basic bolters. Some genestealers are upgraded to a 4+ armor save but the same principle applies, just with heavy bolters or a higher volume of shooting.

 

Gaunts are a meatshield. They exist to provide a cover save for more valuable bugs, to punish you for wasting your turns shooting at them by coming back on the board after they die (Without Number), and in general to be annoying and draw fire from the more dangerous bugs. In quantity, gaunts are somewhat threatening to scouts - fleshborer equipped gaunts (aka termagaunts) can bring down speeders, take out bikes with consistancy, and come in jumbo squad sizes to make assaulting them an iffy proposition. You kill them with bolters and flamers, as they can never have better than a 5+ armor save, but if you're in range to hit them with flamers you're also in range to be assaulted or shot by almost everything in the tyranid army. Use this to your advantage, and use the flamer template to hit things the gaunts are screening.

 

Rippers are a meatshield's meatshield. They exist to provide a cover save for more valuable bugs and to WRECK anyone who underestimates them. They are 3 wound, 3 attack models that are fearless and can be upgraded to have S4 and a 12" charge. They will tie up dedicated hand to hand troops, break vehicles through sheer dint of glancing hits and number of attacks, and keep the gaunts alive for longer so that the gaunts can keep the bigger bugs alive longer. If the opponent ignores the rippers, they swarm and use their absurd number of attacks to tie up one or more squads in a protracted and messy assault. You kill them just like gaunts, but rippers absorb a ridiculous quantity of fire, and benefit from an improved cover save whenever one presents itself, so only shoot at them if you have a clear line of fire. Rippers, unlike any other tyranid in synapse, are NOT immune to instant death. Krak grenades and krak missiles WILL kill whole models at a time, but if you do that you're not shooting at the bigger bugs. Which is the point of rippers.

 

Carnifexes operate more or less like hive tyrants, although with fewer shots, lower ballistic skill, and ridiculously high strength. Carnifexes wreck any vehicles they want to in close combat, have instant death shooting attacks (including a S8 large blast template), and can break light vehicles or shake/stun heavier vehicles to keep them to contributing to the fight until the carnifexes get in close enough to assault everything. If hive tyrants are an anti-infantry big bug, carnifexes are anti-armor big bugs. You kill them exactly the same was as you kill hive tyrants, except carnifexes can also be swarmed by infantry in an assault and are vulnerable to power fists (being I1). Sometimes people don't buy the 2+ armor save and so carnifexes can be vulnerable to krak missiles. Check with your opponents to find out before you shoot.

 

Zoanthropes are psyker bugs. They provide synapse to the army, and usually have warp blast, which lets them fire a S5AP3 small blast template. They can also pull off a S10 AP2 Assault 1 shot, but don't expect to see it used that often as it misses half the time. They're T4, with a 2+/6++ save and two wounds. They aren't individually threatening and can take a lot of punishment, so most people either don't shoot at them or don't commit enough firepower to take them out. If you are going to kill them, plasma or melta is your best bet and you have the additional benefit of being able to take them down in assault fairly easily. They are hard to kill but not particularly threatening in an assault.

 

----Uncommon bugs

 

Hormagaunts are sort of like a CC equivalent of a gaunt. They're more expensive, they have a 12" charge, and they're generally pretty ineffective. Usually when fielded, they're upgraded pretty heavily, and will eat scouts alive in CC. Even basic hormagaunts will take on CC scouts without flinching, though - hormagaunts will usually get the charge off and have 2 attacks base and a WS of 4. If you need to take out hormagaunts, bolters and flamers do just fine, or deny them the charge.

 

Lictors are uncommon because ever since 5th edition, a squad of 3 lictors was worth 3 KP. They also relied on rending for effectiveness, and that got nerfed in 5E as well. Think of them as S6 genestealers that get an improved cover save (4+ becomes 2+, 5+ becomes 3+, and get a 5+ cover save standing out in the open). They always deep strike into a terrain piece and can never scatter out - you can deny them terrain by placing your own units in so as to prevent them from being able to deep strike in. They can assault the turn they deep strike in, though, and they're dangerous, but are glass cannons that will die to flamers and strong CC units. Inflicting 2 wounds on a T4 model with a 5+ armor save is not difficult.

 

Gargoyles are expensive models in terms of $$, which is why you'll almost never see them fielded in quantity. If you do, though, be concerned. Gargoyles are relatively cheap jump infantry with fleshborers, and large squads can fly in, shoot up a squad, and drop it in the assault before it can get a chance to hit back, thanks to bio-plasma. They go down fairly easily to bolter fire, but are cheap enough to be used to draw fire from more important bugs. Avoid letting these distract you away from dealing with more important units, as gargoyles can't do much more than distract you or contest objectives. Keep your speeders away from them, though - gargoyles swat down speeders fairly easily, as fleshborers are S4 weapons and their bioplasma attack will hit on a 4+ even if you move 12" or more.

 

Raveners are dangerous glass cannons. They're usually equipped with rending claws and scything talons, giving them 5 attacks on the charge. They have 2 wounds, can fleet, and also have a 12" charge like hormagaunts do. Additionally, they can be equipped with an additional ranged weapon (deathspitter, spinefists, or devourer), and devourer-raveners get six shots apiece. But they go down to shooting just like genestealers (albeit with two wounds) and they are only I5, so characters or squads with furious charge can counterassault them with good success. Kill them with bolters and flamers, just like genestealers.

 

Biovores, like previously mentioned, are a tremendous liability in kill point games, but many people ignore the spore mine=KP rule when they play. Biovores can have three different types of spore mines; in practice you'll only see bio-acid. Spore mines, when they contact an enemy unit (or an enemy unit shoots within 2") detonate every mine in the cluster like a barrage centered on the spore mine that initially detonated. You usually see them in sets of three, and a the second and third explosions can actually scatter a good distance into a squad with some degree of luck. Bio-acid detonates as a S3 AP3 small blast that rolls 2D6+3 for armor penetration against any vehicle struck. Three things to note about biovore-shot spore mines- the spore mines are fired, placed, and the placed mine detonates. This means that cover is always traced from the center of the hole rather than from the biovore. Partial hits from bio-acid are still resolved as 2D6+3 armor penetration and are not halved in strength, and if a biovore lands a direct hit on top of a vehicle, the vehicle is hit on side armor always (treated as indirect fire for that purpose). Kill them with bolters and flamers, or ignore them since they are never going to be as threatening as other things on the table.

 

General Strategy for Scouts --

 

Gunline, gunline, gunline. Combat squad everything to protect yourself from assaults, and realize that the tyranids simply don't care about your cover saves (since they have almost no weapons AP4 or better). Against a horde type army, shoot the bugs in front first and kill as much as you can so that in subsequent turns the bugs in the rear don't have cover saves. If you can deny the little bugs a cover save, they'll go down to bolters; if you deny the warriors a cover save they go down to heavy bolters and krak missiles, and if you deny the hive tyrants and carnifexes the protection of other bugs drawing fire, you can overwhelm them with massed everything fire. It's tense, especially when lictors or genestealers show up outflanking to throw a wrench into your plans, but if you focus you firepower on one squad at a time (see killhammer for suggestions on how to prioritize targets effectively), you can whittle them down so they're not nearly as scary by the time they get to you.

 

Against a nidzilla list, your only chance is to kill their scoring units and then try and focus fire on one monstrous creature at a time. Shoot EVERYTHING at it and assault it with EVERYTHING, and hopefully you'll kill it and move onto the next one. Combat squad here because you'll need to sacrifice squads and you don't want to get tied up in an assault that lasts through your turn and prevents you from shooting something.

 

Against a balanced list, see the horde army above. Be patient and peel the army one layer at a time. You don't have to kill the entire squad, just enough so that the squad behind it doesn't get a cover save. Once you get to the warriors, you want to kill those first - that's where the biggest, most easily killed volume of fire is coming from. Afterwards focus on one monstrous creature at a time, dealing with gaunts and genestealers and rippers as necessary. If you can manage to concentrate multiple power fists onto the same hive tyrant or carnifex, do it - the MC can only attack one squad at a time and you have good chances to take it out in the opponent's assault phase.

 

If the tyranid army is CC-oriented, stay back, stay tightly packed, and retreat to the edge of your shooting range whenever possible to avoid an assault. Tyranid CC is generally going to be better than scout CC, so only assault if you can do so with an advantage (furious charge, multiple power fists, etc.).

 

If the tyranid army is shooting-oriented, good luck. Fight aggressively, spread out to avoid template weapons, and concentrate on reducing the numbers of as many squads as possible. A 5-man tyranid warrior squad reduced to 2 models is less threatening and can be ignored in favor or more dangerous squads. Similarly, a 16-man gaunt squad reduced to 5 or 6 models is mostly harmless. Don't waste any more shots on it; make them come to you. You will need to fight very aggressively and try and force them to split their attention. Combat squad and throw scouts into assaults to tie up their bigger shooting units.

[greatcrusade08]

That is extremely helpful, thanks, that must have taken some time to write up...

In the games i play i see hormagaunts alot, but never see biovores. lictors or gargoyles, so its good to get some info on these..

 

Ill get this added, it should make for a fine tactica.

 

GC08

[Olesh]

That is extremely helpful, thanks, that must have taken some time to write up...

In the games i play i see hormagaunts alot, but never see biovores. lictors or gargoyles, so its good to get some info on these..

 

Ill get this added, it should make for a fine tactica.

 

GC08

 

Hormagaunts used to be slightly more effective; with the 4th edition assault rules, you could have one giant mob of hormagaunts, rely on outnumbering to force a leadership check at a big penalty when you won, and then run down the enemy and jump from one assault to the next with the massacre roll. Nowadays it's not cost effective because a big mob of hormagaunts can't rely on being in an assault 24/7 for protection, and rapid firing bolters eat into their numbers like nobody's business.

 

You don't really see gargoyles because they are only available as expensive pewter models, but it helps to think of them as termagaunts with wings and bio-plasma, because that's all they are. Lictors, as mentioned previously, are a potential liability in a KP game and are rather expensive, points-wise. For three lictors you could get a dozen genestealers or two cheap close-combat carnifexes, or a hive tyrant with two tyrant guard. Lictors are not a good investment for something with all the durability of wet tissue paper and most people are realizing it.

[greatcrusade08]

Article has been drastically re-written with all these points taken into account, please have another read and post your C+C

 

Thanks

GC08

[Mal]

If you want I can post up my Stealer Spam list for you to run a comparison with.. it runs a little like that khorne deamon army you faced before, but with enough differences to make it interesting. I think I may even have an old bug swarm list around here somewhere, but that'll probally need tweaking.

[greatcrusade08]

If you want I can post up my Stealer Spam list for you to run a comparison with.. it runs a little like that khorne deamon army you faced before, but with enough differences to make it interesting.

 

It would be interesting to know what upgrades you take for each unit...post away!!

 

GC08

[Mal]

Broodlord: Flesh hooks, implant attack, toxin sacs (+1s)

6 genestealers: flesh hooks, implant attack, taxin sacs (+1s), scything talons

 

12 genestealers: flesh hooks, implant attack, scuttlers, toxin sacs (+1s), scything talons

 

12 genestealers: flesh hooks

 

12 genestealers: flesh hooks

 

12 genestealers: flesh hooks

 

12 genestealers: flesh hooks

 

3 ripper swarms: agrenal glands (+1ws), leaping, toxin sacs (+1s) spinefists

 

That comes to 1500 points...

 

Granted this army was designed to take on other bug lists, but I have tested it against most other armies and found it needed no tweaking to be a serious challenger.

 

As to how it plays, the broodlord and the sculters are only there to take down big targets or to pin the enemy in place while the rest of the stealers arrive, generally I am in combat turn 2, turn 3 at the most... generally speaking I don't bother to go for objectives unless my oponent has a unit on them, but even then im going for the unit not the objective.

[greatcrusade08]

Sweet thats alot of stealers, but it works out to be about equal numbers to a scout force (including bike squads)..

Scutllers would be the biggest problem turning up and charging without warning, but then combat squadding scout units, would leave any stealer unit vulnerable to rapid fire death on the next turn...

I noticed you didnt give them +1 save, which means bolters would tear through them, personally whenever i use stealers i always give them extended carapace, it does make them 20points but the ability to soak up twice the amount of firepower is more than worth these extra 4 points.

Broodlord is always a worry, i figure Telion could hurt him but i cant remember his stats for T and W, ill have to look it up when i get the chance.

 

GC08

[Mal]

Well the general idea I had about the extended carapace is that for every 4 models you give it to you have to drop 1 stealer.... in a massed stealer force, thats quite a few stealers your dropping... As for the danger of rapid fire bolters, well thats what cover was made for.

 

Stealers have the movement potential to assault the unit at the face closest to cover and make a consolidation move to get the bulk of them back into cover before the opponent gets a chance to shoot them... its a tactic i've used quite a bit with a great deal of success.

Most notably i've used it against a massed marine army (nothing but a captain and tac marines) so I was facing huge amounts of rapid fire bolters....

 

But that aside there are 7 units there, all of them have great movement potential, and all but 1 is prettu much garunteed to kill any scount unit they touch, so yes combat squadding will limit the damage I can do and allow you more time to shoot me, it will also mean that there is almost no hope of the unit I get into combat with lasting even a single turn, this will make your fists completly useless against this army.

 

Still it'd be interesting to see just how it would work... but all things considering, the stealer army should win, it is after all a tournament army... which is why it doesn't get used much :rolleyes:

[Olesh]

As a quick critique of the list, I'm noticing the lack of feeder tendrils. With feeder tendrils you go from 6/9 attacks hitting to 8/9 attacks hitting, or approximately a 1/3 boost in attacks landed. I know they are incompatible with flesh hooks on basic genestealers, but your broodlord should always have them even if no other model in your army does, because it makes his squad plus any squads with a model nearby that much more effective.

 

That being said, expect to see an increase in tyranid shooting armies in the semi-near future as more people start catching on. Close combat focused armies are losing favor with the inability to consolidate into assaults, and tyranid shooting is surprisingly robust.

[Mal]

I know about the tendrils, but since I specalised my tactics to work through cover, I gave them the best bonuses for coverfighting, there are a lot of different ways to arrive at the same place, and this is my personal preference. As for the reduction in effectiveness due to consolidation, well, I have simply adjusted my tactics accordingly and find that the extra turn shooting actually does minimal damage to my forces if I play right... besides its more sporting to give my opponent the false hope of an additional turn.

[greatcrusade08]

besides its more sporting to give my opponent the false hope of an additional turn.

 

Wouldnt it be more sporting NOT to use a stealer army???

Ten points for making me chuckle though :D

 

GC08

[Mal]

yes it would be more sporting not to use them, than to use them.... but its also more sporting to give them an extra turn, then not to... its a question of reletivity, not that it will make any difference to the outcome. :tu:

[Brother Tual]

if I may, I am no mad scout player nor an avid nid player (I have never played with them) - but from a Ultramarine player who loves playing against nids I have a few things I would like to add -

 

Nid players have lists that are fun to play against because they are generally single purpose but have the ability to destroy armies. They are exciting to play against because it is a kill or be killed game, unlike other armies where you can wrestle it out or manouvre for a draw, you simply cant do so against nids, you get caught, you are dead.. That said, they can shoot and be 'balanced' but then - I think - that they loose something overall... it feels more like playing against a poorer armour save chaos list, a few big guns moving on the base line with some MC and crazy nuts running into your bullets full pace...

 

As noted previously, I find that nids struggle with armour - not so much that they cant hurt it, but insofar as they have a few weapons to roll the dice with each turn as opposed to most loyalist or other xeno lists which have an abundance of ranged high str weaponry and can 'back up' previous failed attempts..

 

BUT - the most noticable influence on the ease of gaming VS nids (be it big bugs, hoard or balance) is mobility.. sure, nids are fast.. but nothing can move more than 12 inches without an assault... (flying guants?) The problem is that they generally cover every inch of the table early game, but with some focused fire and direction you can fairly reliably create 'pockets' of unreachable ground late game.. you can do this either through killing bugs in an area BEYOND range of supporting ones (hard to do and unless you have a really explosive list it can be hard to take advantage of) but reducing synapse in a section of the table is another means of doing so.. little bugs and even fexs have to test to wander into this part of the table and if they shift synapse back into this section, they weaken or reduce their ability in another section or you can simply try and do what you did last turn and blow this synapse bug to hell... This is easier said than done..

 

 

Bikers have always been a strong unit vs nids. The ability to move FASTER than any nid is their saving grace. High Toughness means little vs nids as everything seems to have somekind of re-roll or rending ability.. Exploit your speed. hold distance and plug away with re-roll hits with long range bolter fire... attrition is your means of success. Same with LSS and onboard scouts - bolters are better than shotties here - not so much for the ap 5 but for the 24 inch range.. Hold still and use it as a firing platform.. chuck in a heavy bolter into the unit and with the HB of the LSS you have a death machine - 135 points? 4 bolter shots + 6 x HB shots that are 'untouchable' (you need to kill the speeder before you can hurt a scout) and it simply zooms off when you get close enough to attack it with favourable odds...

 

as for big bugs with scouts.. you are going to struggle - Large scout units with a hidden PF and a plasma pistol and lots of CCW scouts.. you might not kill the big fella straight up and if you charge a shooting one (as you would) you should hurt it more than it hurts you... both of you need 4+ to hit (your PF needs 3+) but with your good amount of attacks some 6+ to wounds should come up and then providing the return attacks have a fair amount of misses involved, combat resolution should be telling.. Its a mutually assured destruction tactic (as something standing next to the 150+ point fex you just toasted) will try and eat your scouts but atleast that thing is moving sideways instead of forwards right? you never know your luck, you might bag a few wounds with that hidden PF on another fex... everything dies right? :(

 

I am not sure on how strict you want to be with 'only 10th compnay' but a unit or two of termies are going to go along way.. A 5 man unit with assault cannon is pumping out a good amount of ranged firepower.. perfect for culling little bugs but then they have the right gear to punch on with the big bugs when they finally stumble across the table.. Stealers are always going to be trouble with any list you take. The perfect unit to match against them is a redeemer - 1) they cant even scratch the paint work and 2) those templates ingnore cover as most nid players are adamant on running these bugs in cover and as such tend to be bunched up as to actually get coversaves as they try and cram them into the footprint of a building..

 

A perfect union of scouts in multiple LSS with 'tactical scouts' back field + a unit of scout bikers and a unit of 'tactical' terminators (bung in ten guys, 2 x assault cannons or cyclones in one unit and 5 basic guys IN a LRR) with a decent IC (marneus!!) and you should have a solid 10/1st company list.. Thats a telling amount of withering firepower with some decent CC ability.. You have your 'firebase' (smallish units with heavies and bolters or snipers - 6 models is a good number) - you have counter units and reaction forces in the form of the bikers and termies on foot and also the LSS, all of which can add to your fire base early game - and then you have your king hitting unit in the LRR and the PF armed termies inside with a decent CC character - (lysander or marneus are going to be the top dogs for choice) The reason why a LRR with 5 termies + IC works well against a balanced nid list is that it can drive thorugh the screening guys, burning them on the way through and then deliver your PF's at your fex of choice.. The LRR is strong enough to hold off large nubers whilst your termies do the dirty work - I have used this tactic many times, each time with outstanding results (though I use GKT instead of normal ones as the intiative kick and str 7 power weapons is golden with Khan on foot in the unit) Once you tank shock a unit, you can fit an amazing amount of models under that template and with a 2+ to kill you get a very reduced counter assault going for your termies.. that and its funny to watch a big bug go for a 12' moving LRR needing 6+ to hit whilst your burn the hoard.. The LRR is a machine which is the bane of nids.

 

as for the selection of bugs which to destroy first, it all depends on your list, its dynamics and you oppnents AND the mission - small uints are easy kill points - rack them up for a sound advantage and then just run.. It will also give you the room to run into!

 

Nid units which often have a high priority are stealers - these generalists are fast and deadly - speed bumping them is not really effective as they are still alive and in a strong position unless you have the resouces available to deny them life.. Scuttlers can be countered - they come on randomly and with a central deploymment they are no better off than starting from their own deployment zone, but do it later in the game.. it does restrict your manouvreing though...

 

Those swarms are annoyingly golden - they sustain firepower second only to nurglings yet are fast enough to be a threat to your 'gun line' troops.. there is not much available to scouts to use against them.. plasma cannons are great as every wound kills TWO BASES (6 wounds!!) but scouts cant get them... (str 7 is instant kill vs T3 and blast weapons cause two wounds for each wound scored vs swarms)

 

Big bugs, more so shooting ones really hate powerfists.. they rely heavily on high toughness to keep them alive and winning combats - most are not going to rack up a high amount of attacks and with a low initiative and poorish WS they tend to bounce attacks more than they break skulls... add in a invul save and these nids are looking at an uphill fight - TH/SS guys would be best BUT PF are not exactly crap and the extra heavy weapon you can get for you other combat squad will be telling.. I tend to save the big bugs for last, of which, the dakka fex's are the first to go, as an assault fex gives me some sort of chance in returning attacks. Compared to the dakka fex which will drop easier in combat in the first instance than a choppy fex and in addition the dakka fex will destroy my weakened unit at range and assault leaving no I 1 return PF swings wheras the choppy fex wont shoot on the way in and will have to get 5 wounds or so to stick to deny combat..

 

Stay away from hive tyrants - these guys need the lascannons and missiles to the head ASAP - they are just too strong for combat but cant be left mulling around as they are either super fast or super shooty.. Unless you are runing an eternal warrior as your IC, you are best off dealing with these guys with your big guns, whilst the small arms fire concerntrates on the little bugs and then your fists go for the big bug in assault..

 

Hormagaunts are my greatest small bug nemesis. I despise thier speed (24' charge range potential) and they hit hard and fast in combat - a decent size unit will envelope even a full tactical squad - these guys hold a close second on the target priority scale... Charging these are definately favourable BUT it is often very difficult to do so.. any form of expendable unit should rush them... Scout bikers will do well, so too will a LSS unit shooting from the top with rapid fire weapons..

 

Ravengers and the like are units that are uncommon - thats not because they are crud, but because they cost alot to purchase.. They tend to be small units and as a result tend to have little impact on the game..

[Olesh]

if I may, I am no mad scout player nor an avid nid player (I have never played with them) - but from a Ultramarine player who loves playing against nids I have a few things I would like to add -

....

....

Hormagaunts are my greatest small bug nemesis. I despise thier speed (24' charge range potential) and they hit hard and fast in combat - a decent size unit will envelope even a full tactical squad - these guys hold a close second on the target priority scale... Charging these are definately favourable BUT it is often very difficult to do so.. any form of expendable unit should rush them... Scout bikers will do well, so too will a LSS unit shooting from the top with rapid fire weapons..

 

Hormagaunts are terrible in 5th edition and weren't that great in 4th. They're relatively expensive compared to gaunts, and require heavy upgrading to be effective (which makes them even more expensive). If you are having sufficient trouble/threat from hormagaunts that they are your greatest small bug nemesis, you need to reconsider your tactics and your priorities.

[Marlow]

but reducing synapse in a section of the table is another means of doing so.. little bugs and even fexs have to test to wander into this part of the table and if they shift synapse back into this section, they weaken or reduce their ability in another section or you can simply try and do what you did last turn and blow this synapse bug to hell... This is easier said than done..

'Fex's are Fearless, and thus do not have to test for Instinctive Behaviour. They do not need Synapse.

[greatcrusade08]

Thanks guys some interesting points'

 

@ Taul, ill add in some points..

Bolters in LSS with heavy weapon is a good idea, if they move they get bolt pistol shots at 12" so they are still contributing a little... that will go in.

I do think bikes are one of the best units, maybe i need to expand a little here.

I do sometimes advocate non-scout units, especially a HQ taking a LRC/LRR transport, any vets for fluff purposes will have to appear to be a command element.. Dreads in pods are ok though.

 

@Marlow.. Fexes outside of synapse can be instakilled by Khan (hes my boy), in 5 attacks he hits on 3's and a single 6 to wound will kill a fex outright.

 

GC08

[Brother Tual]

'Fex's are Fearless, and thus do not have to test for Instinctive Behaviour. They do not need Synapse

you sure about that? They are LD 10.. I dont have a nid dex...

 

If you are having sufficient trouble/threat from hormagaunts that they are your greatest small bug nemesis, you need to reconsider your tactics and your priorities.

 

Of all the gaunts, these are the fastest. My playstyle relies on containment, something I can do rather well.. these little beggars are usually in sufficient number to make a mess of tactical squads given the charge - all the other bugs are slower - I would much rather face a stealer list than a hormagaunt list... Termagaunts and spine gaunts are useless against my lists as I have strong assault elements and a ton or armour, all of which seriously outclass these bug types, the hormagaunts have sufficient speed to counter charge my uber units, and their proliffic numbers can tip the balance of the ensuing assaults - discarding any combat bug is a BIG mistake by any player going against them.. worst still are hormagaunts under the influence of feeder tendrils - maybe you think them weak, and if this is true and I find them to be the biggest threat, does that not make me a strong player and my priorities and tactics to be right because everything else is a less of an issue? Its like saying a unit of guard are the hardest things to kill in a guard list, and if they are easy, then I must find the rest of the list easy...

 

I have played in many tournies mate, I have played ALOT of bug lists (big and small) and I have only lost two games against nids in tourney play - one was a balanced list with 3 objectives and the endless swarm could not be denied - his last set of synapse had 2 of the 3 objectives within range and his layers of bugs denied me the ability to actually make the distance - otherwise - I killed his list 3 times over with the loss of two dreads and few marines and two honour guard - I simply could not make ground on him - The other time was a loss against a nidzilla list with alot a ravengers and swarms - the game was truncated (4 turns) with night fighting - This player was ranked second in AUS at the time and he only just beat me 3 - 2 on objectives as I simply didnt have the time to make his table side and attack his scoring units..

 

I have noticed that nid players dont EXPECT to be attacked - If you match your horses properly, you can take the fight to a nid player and they generally lack sufficient speed to counter attack - they are spred and easy pickings or are clumped and easily out manouvred and fit nicely under templates - Moving aggressively generally takes the nid player by suprise - ofcourse you cant just walk upto them and punch them in the face, it takes more than that, but it will work 95% of the time - how to do that with scouts is something else though -

 

The reason as to why I find hormagaunts to be a danger unit is because they supply movement to a nid list but also are a strong holding unit - if a large unit makes multiple combats, it can tie up a large portion of points that cant target something more pressing but more importantly they cant move - your units are trapped in a struggle which is not deadly in itself, but that stealer unit sprinting across open ground or that hive tyrant closing in is going to destroy my units - without the hormagaunts tying me down I can simply shift or run in an effort to buy time or form a counter - Like a scorpion holding its prey in its claws - sure the claws dont tickle - but its that poisoned stinger that will deliver the killing blow, he just needs to hold you still long enough... same with when you attack - you can reliably punch a hole in a nid line and take a good proportion of bugs with you and it will take some time for a Big bug or stealer unit to traverse any real distance in order to counter (if you havent created distance than you have done this at an incorrect time) the hormagaunts can easily hold up a small elite unit for a turn or three until the killer blow arrives - Its that simple - As for front line bullet takers - they are weak and yes - gaunts are going to be better at this job because you get more per point - but as a holding unit, these are better - they move faster - they can actually fight something thus reducing combat modifiers and potentially sticking around abit longer...

[white radish]

I don't know if ALL MCs are fearless, but I'm pretty sure TMCs are fearless.

 

As for Hormagaunts, they're expensive, and maybe you can get more Wounds in a Hormagaunt squad... but if there's a question between upgraded Hormagaunts and basic Genestealers, it's a no-brainer. Hormagaunts don't rend & need Synapse, unlike Genestealers, and Hormies have overall worse CC stats as well.

 

It's not that Hormagaunts are bad, but they are expensive for Synapse-dependent basic bugs Troops. If Gargoyles came in plastic, then you'd never see Hormagaunts ever... Gargoyles are like shooty uber-Hormagaunts with a super high I attack (Bio-Plasma).

[greatcrusade08]

I tend to agree with Taul on this one, i see alot of hormagaunts being used, thier ability to charge 12" and fleet is alot better than any other basic nid creatures... they dont have to be upgraded too much to be effective and lets face it, they can bring down anyone with massed attacks..

 

Horses for courses, everyones opinions differ and your bound to face some from time to time... i do!

 

GC08

[Brother Tual]

but if there's a question between upgraded Hormagaunts and basic Genestealers, it's a no-brainer.

 

I agree some what - Genestealers are much better in combat - add in some tendrils and you have a manic unit that cannot be eclipsed in combat -

 

I am just saying that of all the gaunts, hormagaunts are potentially the most dangerous - and for me, it comes from their speed rather than their ability - If somebody puts hormaguants on the table I dont treat them like I would termagaunts - the later takes bullets whereas the former stops my guns shooting all together and pins my units through locking them in combat - When and where this takes place is often the key to beating a nid army - it is never a case of IF and if you rely on stopping nids with lead, you will loose every time against a good player -

 

Most players look at a nid list as a point and click army - if your oppenent plays it as such, any player with half a brain will beat him - you simply just move and shoot - move and shoot - until there is nothing left to shoot - A good player will force the combats - cut off your lines of movement and make you shoot at what he wants you to shoot at - make you fight combats that you cant win and shoot things you cant kill or dont matter - and if he has fast elements that can pin your units by locking them in combat, he will - often it will come down to this - if you can avoid the hopeless combats and not waste rounds on targets that need not die immediately -

 

Ultimately avoiding the trap is your goal - Players who use mass scuttlers are trying to do this very thing - set a trap - force you into the center and smash you from both flanks and grind you under the main thrust - It may seem retarded but if you assault the weaker flank (yes, I am telling you to ATTACK genestealers) then some forces are left behind (on the other table side) and his center has to move diagonally or in a curve - and whats the shortest movement path between two points?? Its just a matter of if you have a list that can do it or not - tactical squads in rhinos are golden - start in the center and plug away with the big guns at his center, 'drift' slightly to one table edge with your heavy tanks or more mobile units (bikes) but remain more than 20 inches from the table edge.. - when the reserves come on (sometimes they have lictors for the trail) they will most likely come on from the closest table side which will be the one with your fast stuff - this will be roughly around turn 2 and the slower big buggs will still be out of threat range - Charge the side with less (they rolled and had to put guys on this side) Just drive straight at it - the majority of stealers will be left running in your dust clouds and the few (one or two units) will feel tyranid fear as they have litterally bitten off more than they can chew - none the less - they will charge into your rhinos as they have nothing else to charge into - they will need 6's to hit and 6' to pen and then 5 or a 6 to get you out and in either case, marines will not be locked in combat and free to kill stuff - your next turn will see these few stealers lit up with bolter love from multiple tactical units whilst your heavy elements have been moving to this table edge punishing the un-fortunate stealers who picked the closer at the time table edge or plugging away at the slower bugs moving up the center..

 

Thats very basic - in game it doesnt work so smoothly as shots are sent across the table from hulking monsters but thats the idea you should apply in games where you are being hunted - most players I see crap when they see outflanking or infiltrting nids - I see a unit that is asking to die or an oppertunity to take the fight to the enemy... Hormagaunts are one of the few units that can get into my lines as the stealers show up - They may not hurt me directly at this stage, but they are going to slow me down (bikes, tanks can drive through your units.. bikes cant!) or lock in straggling units or counter attack my tactical marines after they punish a small segment of your attack, either that or I have to divert some force onto them rather than your offence..

[greatcrusade08]

My eyes lose focus everytime i read Tauls walls of text ^_^

Ultimately a 'point and click' army only does as well as the controlling player, if he is no good they will lose, if he is a good general they will proabbly win, barring a better tacticain or lucky dice rolls.

 

I am the first to admit a 'pure' scout army i.e no other scouts bar the HQ and perhaps a LR for him (my kinda lists), will struggle against a decent nid player.. I never wanted the scout lists to be Tourny winners, i just wanted to get the most from them, so maybe i will lose against nids, but it will be fun none-the-less.

I guess the question is, do you think this tactica meets my criteria, does it do what i want it to do. i.e maximise scouts potential???

Will this tactica help the average gamer play against the average nid army?

 

Any comments gratefully received

 

GC08

[Brother Tual]

I never wanted the scout lists to be Tourny winners, i just wanted to get the most from them

 

you make me want to take a scout/termy list to a tourney with all these tacticas you write... Its not good as I only have 10 shotgun scouts and 5 sniper ones... thats more dosh you make me want to spend on plastic... maybe next year mate when all the new career stuff with me settles down a bit, then I will test your ideas in the tourney arena...

 

I think it could work in a competative environment - given a strong list I think that they could do well - but I think that you will need to look outside the exclusivity of the tenth company to build such a list - Mainly elements from the first comapny and the chapter armoury -

[greatcrusade08]

I think it could work in a competative environment - given a strong list I think that they could do well - but I think that you will need to look outside the exclusivity of the tenth company to build such a list - Mainly elements from the first comapny and the chapter armoury -

Thanks Mate, if you can remember the scale i used in my previous articles, im a solid one or two (at the moment its a two cuz i use a single LRC), but a three is more than ok... just using scouts as troops and fast attack, bringing in heavy support and elites is fine..

Like i said how we all see scout armies varies from chap to chap...

Dreads and t-fire are great 'fluffy' choices to add in as it represents the drop podding death on marked targets.

But then again im using a degree of fluff to help me with army selection, the tourney environments require no such handicaps, so whatever you want to use is fine.

 

Personally id love to see a 1st and tenth win a tourney, it would make people question thier cookie cutter lists.

 

Thanks again

Gc08