A letter to GW.

[Dragons]

This is just the logical conclusion of the path GW has been taking for the last few years.

 

When they eliminated the 'official' position of the Rulesboyz and transfered the responsibility for rules querries from a dedicated group of 5 employees to the SALES departments the response and quality of rules FAQ's went out the window. You can't expect that many people to coordinate and collect a comprehensive FAQ as well.

 

With the reduction/elimination of 'official' the GW Tournaments is appears that they are shooting for 'friendly' games and not tournaments.

 

 

Each step is a step away from the competative and toward the 'beer and pretzels' style of play. Not that it's a big hidden plot.. Just the direction the game has been moving for a while now.

 

Just my .02

 

 

-Dragons

[number6]

Even "beer-n-pretzel" gamers can use clarifications, though. The GW rules are very poorly written. Compare to virtually every other miniatures wargame rules set out there and that will become clear very quickly.

[boreas]

Yes, it's pretty sad really that GW builds huge boats and then sends them aways in a huge launch event fully aware that they're leaky. It's even sadder that they are unwilling to provide basic maintenance on a regular basis. Makes me think that if you invert GW's "W", you get GM. Maybe just like cars, codexes now have a planned obsolescence which is not covered by any warranty...

 

Phil

[Dilgar]

I don´t know whether to cry or laugh :huh:

 

I mean, it seriously can NOT be that hard to update an old book, thus keeping the gameplay/rules the same. What he said about it being "hard" is just laugahble. A simple thing to do would be to check all the biggest WH sites(This, Warseer, Druchii, Asrai etc. etc.), contact the admins, tell them to open threads and start to compile (like the Gotcha) any inconsistencies, check back two weeks later and they pretty much have all the Q&A they need for each race out there, not costing them a dime. And this could be done by ONE GUY ;)

 

About tournament specific rules as this actually conserns, I also can´t understand why it should be so hard to make em... :mellow:

 

I mean GW as a company has seriously not sniffed the air outside for a while, there games have a big more support and fan-based activity then in the beginning of the 90´s... :cuss

 

Simply but GW must have some grand idea inprinted in their head that activating the communities out here would somehow hurt their business, I mean was there this much whining(%) about EVERYTHING back in let´s say the year 2000?

 

Sorry for whining, but this thread seems to be all about it :unsure:

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Sorry for whining, but this thread seems to be all about it :D

 

Maybe we should get a "Despair from the Rock"-style thread.

[ThePurifier]

I always wonder how many guys actually work on the rules and codex development for GW. I work a full 8 hour day and if I bust my butt I can get a lot done in one day. In my area I see entire city blocks totally transformed by construction workers in a mere matter of months that boggles my mind. Assuming these GW developers work 8 hours a day and 40 hours a week they should in theory be able to pump out a tremendous amount of material. Somehow that isn't the case. The codices that badly need updating already have an established base. It's not like they have to start from scratch so having to wait years upon years for a new one is not acceptable. The only reason GW hasn't spent the time to bring out proper FAQ's is either because they can't be bothered or they flat out don't want to.

[gil galed]

Its nice to see that GW has become even... um family friendly word... worse... than they have been in regards to rules

 

 

Any rules queries that come in via email will be forwarded on to the Games Developers on the understanding that they may not be answered directly, but that they may feature in a future incarnation of an official errata document.

 

Let me express myself properly, What are you doing????

 

 

I could answer all the questions sent to me in a day if i was the games developer

 

Sort Your Lives Out!!!!

[Eltnot]

Woot, so the errata will be done by the game designers which mean they will be done properly. Only issue is that the game designers are too busy/lazy to release errata. So the limited support that was being offered is now gone to be replaced by nothing... :P

 

We can only hope I suppose.

[jeffersonian000]

Effectively, GW just advised us to use our best discretion when arbitrating rules conflicts and to only send in a rules question if we want them to arbitrate it for us for the next rules release. I like it. It’s like telling everyone to stop whining and just play for gods’ sake!

 

Kind of refreshing for a change.

 

SJ

[Eltnot]

Effectively, GW just advised us to use our best discretion when arbitrating rules conflicts and to only send in a rules question if we want them to arbitrate it for us for the next rules release. I like it. It’s like telling everyone to stop whining and just play for gods’ sake!

 

Kind of refreshing for a change.

 

SJ

I do hope you're joking. It's not refreshing, it's lazy.

 

Ask the Ork players whether they can use their deathrollers against vehicles. The rules aren't clear as the wording has changed. Now any Ork player doesn't know whether his deathroller will actually do anything of substance in a tournament game until he actually gets there. This is refreshing to you? Their codex is one of the latest releases and is now full of rules that are now ambiguous because GW is too lazy/"refreshing" to give an answer.

 

But of course those issues don't matter for long because GW turns over their codices on a regular basis. Just remind me when Necrons, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, Deamon Hunters and Witch Hunters received their last update..... I can't quite remember.... It mustn't have been long ago though.

 

By the way, I do play. Once a fortnight or more.

[jeffersonian000]

I do hope you're joking. It's not refreshing, it's lazy.

 

Ask the Ork players whether they can use their deathrollers against vehicles. The rules aren't clear as the wording has changed. Now any Ork player doesn't know whether his deathroller will actually do anything of substance in a tournament game until he actually gets there. This is refreshing to you? Their codex is one of the latest releases and is now full of rules that are now ambiguous because GW is too lazy/"refreshing" to give an answer.

 

But of course those issues don't matter for long because GW turns over their codices on a regular basis. Just remind me when Necrons, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, Deamon Hunters and Witch Hunters received their last update..... I can't quite remember.... It mustn't have been long ago though.

 

By the way, I do play. Once a fortnight or more.

 

I think you just proved my point.

 

GW has never seemed to back RAW versus RAI. They've always seemed to back "intent" and "best fit for that situation" with a healthy dose of "if you can't work it out, just roll off and get back to the game."

 

Why wouldn't a deathroller affect a vehicle? Does it look like it could? Do the rules for it seem to indicate that it should? Would a reasonably intelligent person assume that it could? If so, then it does. If not, then it doesn't. Pretty simple.

 

Is a Daemon Prince a daemon? Well, it's tied to the warp, is daemonic in size and power, and any reasonable person would assume that it is indeed a daemon. Except for the CSM player that does not want his twin DP's to be effected by a little used rule in the DH codex that would only cause issues if he/she charged some GK's. I can understand where that person would not be reasonable, so we'd most likely have to dice off and then get back to the game.

 

What GW's response to that letter said to me was, "yep, we put a easy mechanic in the rulebook you guys just keep ignoring, so why don't you guys start using it and we'll keep in mind your major issue when/if we get around to updating the next rules set. Until then, it’s a game, have fun."

 

Yes, I find that refreshing. What I find annoying is all the rules lawyering, RAW vs RAI, and fluff Nazi-ism that runs rampant in every forum, were people with the most posts seem to have more authority than those that post less. So yes, a game publisher telling its audience to use common sense and just have fun is a lot nicer to see than yet another thread based around "I've found this loop-hole, please glory at my greatness."

 

But that's just me. Your mileage may very.

 

SJ

[Eltnot]

Yes, I find that refreshing. What I find annoying is all the rules lawyering, RAW vs RAI, and fluff Nazi-ism that runs rampant in every forum, were people with the most posts seem to have more authority than those that post less. So yes, a game publisher telling its audience to use common sense and just have fun is a lot nicer to see than yet another thread based around "I've found this loop-hole, please glory at my greatness."

 

But that's just me. Your mileage may very.

 

SJ

If GW bothered to release rules updates like they used to, RAW vs RAI wouldn't exist. Back in the days of 2nd and 3rd Edition (I can't talk for rogue trader I wasn't playing then.), updates to the rules would be released regularly clarifying those rules that needed clarifying and actually changing those rules that needed changing. These updates were released via White Dwarf and kept the game running smoother.

 

Let's get back to that deathroller example shall we. Sure I can sort something out with my regular opponents. When I play at a club, I may run into issues as people have different ideas about how things should work though. At a tournament, it's even more annoying.

 

All of this could be solved by someone writing half a paragraph rewording the section that no longer makes sense because of terminology changes. This could be released through either White Dwarf (making it vaguely worthwhile to buy) or online.

 

If GW put in this tiny bit of effort, would it hurt the way you like to play? Not at all I'd imagine. You'd have less people whining too since their questions would be getting answered.

 

Would it make me want to spend more money on GW products? Oh hell yes! The game I enjoy with actual rules updates.....

 

I don't see why it is so hard. After all GW used to release updates and errata, and it worked very well for them. During 2nd and 3rd Ed was when the company has grown the most and this was their procedure then. And then suddenly in 4th they stop. And their sales and shares start to plummet too. A coincidence? I think not.

 

I'd be willing to bet that the people that generally spend the most money on GW products are those that play tournaments. They buy and build an army from scratch every year or two generally, thus creating large amounts of revenue. As GW continues to piss these people off, they lose players and therefore revenue. Just consider for a second how much money GW would NOT lose by releasing a yearly or six monthly PDF updating and tidying up rules to remove these arguements (I know myself that I would be spending around $400-500AUS per year on GW products alone). Tournament players would be overjoyed.

 

You say refreshing (although the whinging probably won't stop). I say lazy/arrogant (I'm not sure which).

 

P.S. By the way, I don't give a damn about my post count or my date of joining this site. I have been playing 40k since the release of second edition and I've started delving into Rogue Trader. My knowledge is often more then people who have been on here longer or posted more regularly, and likewise I am aware that someone with a post count of one could very well know more about the game then me. ePenis's be damned, it's the quality of your post that counts not how many of them you make. But considering your response, I realise that you to are not a dimwit and I do respect your opinion. ;)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Would a reasonably intelligent person assume that it could?

 

You assume that 40k is only played by reasonably intelligent people who would only ever consider becoming unreasonable if a rules resolution would be to the detriment of their army. I wish it were true, but unfortunately it's not. You can't just say "be reasonable" and expect it to happen. The days where everyone was expected to be a person of honesty and integrity are gone, sadly.

 

By the way, I don't give a damn about my post count or my date of joining this site. . . . ePenis's be damned, it's the quality of your post that counts not how many of them you make.

 

Quoted for truth. Post count is only useful in determining whether someone is a lurker or a motormouth. I'd only ever look at someone's post count & joining date if they were using leetspeak.

[Alun]

leetspeak?!?! Does not compute!! :(

 

I absolutely agree with you Eltnot, it isn't refreshing in any sort of manner.

 

Over the last year or so my love for 40k has dwindled, and have been looking to play other systems (from other companies). About a year and a half ago I came across Hordes and Warmachine (a game developed by Privateer Press). Others here may play, doesn't matter. The point being, this company actually seems that it gives a rats arse about the people who play their games. They have an official forum for all aspects of the game (even in different languages), Game designers frequent the boards, and so when there's a major rules query, it is guaranteed to be sorted and clarified.

 

Now, as it stands, Privateer Press are a smaller company and yet they manage to be able to do more for the players of the game than GW could ever wish to do so. That is what gets me angry.

 

By saying disagreements should be worked out on a roll of a dice equates to, we're not competent enough to write the rules to our own game, and hell, we're too lazy to boot to sort it out by a simple act of putting a downloadable sheet of paper on our website. I mean, I could do that (and I bet anybody on this board could do the same) during my bloody lunch break.

 

So, no. It isn't refreshing to hear that they will not be bothering to sort out the discrepencies they themselves have created.

[Prathios]

Well I am officially cross eyed. I'm not exactly sure what to think on this. On the one hand I fully agree with the arguement that people should expect GW to be able to faq or errata things very easily and efficiently. Heck just browsing the B&C a single GW employee could likely faq a codex in a matter of hours. This shouldn't be the monumental problem it is, I feel like I'm buying and painting figures from the U.S. Govt. Only they could be expected to operate more slowly, less efficiently, and with poorer customer service.

 

But at the same time I can't tell you how much I enjoy the idea of just playing the game and use your head. The game was designed in such a way that you need to be able to make referee decisions on the fly without having to look through 100 pages of rules. But at the same time Tyrak and others have made very good points about how players these days can't decide how to breath without an official FAQ from God. Ultimately I have no idea what to think.

 

As far as post count and what not, I will second Eltnot. Who honestly cares how many times you posted?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

leetspeak?!?! Does not compute!! :huh:

Hate it all you want, but to expunge this disease we must learn to recognise it's symptoms. ;)

 

Back on topic . . .

 

Over the last year or so my love for 40k has dwindled, and have been looking to play other systems (from other companies). About a year and a half ago I came across Hordes and Warmachine (a game developed by Privateer Press). Others here may play, doesn't matter. The point being, this company actually seems that it gives a rats arse about the people who play their games. They have an official forum for all aspects of the game (even in different languages), Game designers frequent the boards, and so when there's a major rules query, it is guaranteed to be sorted and clarified.

 

Now, as it stands, Privateer Press are a smaller company and yet they manage to be able to do more for the players of the game than GW could ever wish to do so. That is what gets me angry.

 

I think this is the root of the problem - GW's attitude. At the moment, it does seem to be that we, the customer, are somehow interfering in the smooth running of their company with our complaints. That's not how it should work. On the other hand, we would be much more understanding of GW's difficulties if they had been more honest and open, because we would trust them that it was a genuine problem and that they were doing their best to fix it. Now, when GW announces another problem or fails to fix another issue, we just get angry, because there is no real explanation, no attempt to communicate to us how or when it could be fixed, and no sense that they even understand what the problem is. It's like they're living in another world.

 

Add to that that GW has decided to focus on the temporary 'rich kid' market at the expense of the existing fanbase, and then overshot the mark in their Machiavellian approach, and you can see that stuff like this is just adding fuel to the fire.

[Dragons]

Well I am officially cross eyed. I'm not exactly sure what to think on this. On the one hand I fully agree with the arguement that people should expect GW to be able to faq or errata things very easily and efficiently. Heck just browsing the B&C a single GW employee could likely faq a codex in a matter of hours. This shouldn't be the monumental problem it is, I feel like I'm buying and painting figures from the U.S. Govt. Only they could be expected to operate more slowly, less efficiently, and with poorer customer service.

 

But at the same time I can't tell you how much I enjoy the idea of just playing the game and use your head. The game was designed in such a way that you need to be able to make referee decisions on the fly without having to look through 100 pages of rules. But at the same time Tyrak and others have made very good points about how players these days can't decide how to breath without an official FAQ from God. Ultimately I have no idea what to think.

 

As far as post count and what not, I will second Eltnot. Who honestly cares how many times you posted?

 

 

I quoted this whole post for emphasis.. This is pretty much exactly how I am.. I am on the 'wait and see' list. I'm in no hurry to finish my current (or next) army. I'm kinda 'slow and steady' in my hobby.. Especially in this current economy.

 

GW actually CREATED this problem. By pushing and pushing and emphasizing the tournament scene and hosting more and more tournaments. I'd like to see it go back to what it was in RT, 2nd, and 3rd edition (initially). Which was FAR FAR less focused on tournament play and had much more 'flexibility'.

 

The reason that GW had so many more erratta and FAQ back in the day was that there was far more 'this sounds like fun... lets do this' kinda rules in the system. There was also HUGE ballance and fairness problems. Codex Creep <TM> was INSANELY worse 'back in the day' and lets not forget all the whining about that!

 

I think that they went too far overboard though. Working on a streamlined and simpler form of rules is GOOD.. but not at the expense of interaction with your fanbase/customers.

 

I think the cleaner.. smoother style of rules (began in 3rd edition) is great.. but for those of us who were around then.. remember the SCREAMING about 'dumming down' the game??

 

Now I think we have a better 'core' of a game.. And getting away from 'tournamant focused' is good.. all they have to do is get a bit more focused on customer support and we'll be golden.

 

 

Until then.. I'll be buying from my local retailer (have to support them).. and waiting.... Hopefully...

 

-Dragons

[gil galed]

Perhaps if B&C created a grand committee to decide all contentious issues with the influence we have and the members we have eventually if they made good decisions enough they'd become respected and we could all work of that rather than shoddy GW support.

[number6]

Perhaps if B&C created a grand committee to decide all contentious issues with the influence we have and the members we have eventually if they made good decisions enough they'd become respected and we could all work of that rather than shoddy GW support.

This has actually been discussed by the mod team a few times. The reason it hasn't happened and probably never will happen should be obvious.

 

It's not, and never will be, "official".

 

The best the B&C could ever do is produce a FAQ and recommend people use it. But it won't carry any more weight than a house rule you use in your basement with your best friend. So in the end, this kind of project has been pushed back to infinity and beyond. It'd be a crap-ton of work with very little payoff to show for it.

[gil galed]

Perhaps if B&C created a grand committee to decide all contentious issues with the influence we have and the members we have eventually if they made good decisions enough they'd become respected and we could all work of that rather than shoddy GW support.

This has actually been discussed by the mod team a few times. The reason it hasn't happened and probably never will happen should be obvious.

 

It's not, and never will be, "official".

 

The best the B&C could ever do is produce a FAQ and recommend people use it. But it won't carry any more weight than a house rule you use in your basement with your best friend. So in the end, this kind of project has been pushed back to infinity and beyond. It'd be a crap-ton of work with very little payoff to show for it.

 

yeh i know it would never be official but the fact it's ours lends it some officially, like when i read something on warseer or BoLS I'm more inclined to agree with it, maybe we should send some tendrils to all the major forums and see if they all want to collaborate. A mass group supporting any document (while it would take a while to finalize) could be good. Sure it'd be work but it'd be good!!

[Dragons]

heh..

 

That many people can't agree on ANYTHING.. Which is why we want FAQ's and Errata and new Codex's.. That way we don't HAVE to agree on rule disputes.. They are clarified by someone who (supposedly) KNOWS.

 

Nice in theory.. practicality fail though..

 

Sorry.

 

-Dragons

[Inquisitor Fox]

A somewhat dissappointing ruling and turn of events.

 

It shouldn't make much of an impact at all for your average 'casual gamer,' but for your diehard tourney player it definately puts a gear in the works. Most game systems or casual folks will just decide how they all want to play it, and if you play with a regular group it's no big deal. Personally I'd rather see a product with official rulings and updated FAQ's and errata, especially as new products or codices are introduced that make new questions! As an example, I've been very happy with ForgeWorld's updating of their material, whereas the mainstream GW material doesn't seem to get the same care and attention.

 

Since I'm one of the 'casual gamer' folks, this won't affect me much at all. I feel for the tourney guys though... no more one list for every tourney based on a one-trick pony style! Then again, is that really a bad thing?

 

I mean, we'd all rather have one set of rules that are clear, concise, and current. Failing that though, maybe it's not entirely a bad thing to have particular 'cheesy' or 'beardy' tactics or interpretations that may not always be in effect. As long as it's disclosed before an event exactly what rulings are in place, and those rulings are readily available well in advance of the event...

 

Bleh.. I don't like this 'casual gamer' vs 'tourney player' thing... or rules that divide the two groups. Can't we all just get along?

[Dragons]

Bleh.. I don't like this 'casual gamer' vs 'tourney player' thing... or rules that divide the two groups. Can't we all just get along?

 

 

Nope.. <grabs pitchfork>. <.< >.> <.<

 

er.... we can try?

 

-Dragons

[Captain Malachi]

GW don't update their rules as often as we'd like because first and foremost, they're a miniature company, not a games company. Yes, they have several games, but it all started as, and I quote, 'a bunch of guys who glued guns to their DnD orks' (or something to that effect).

 

The problem of course is that forums tend to attract the gamers more than the painters, so we don't realise just how many people collect the models without playing the games. Someone above said that GW make most of their money off tournament players buying a new army every year or so, I'd like to disagree with that. Those people who collect the models will often buy a lot more models than those who play purely in tournaments, and those who collect an army they like and play will often buy more models while they work out what works and what doesn't. Tournament players collect to a fixed list, and don't buy anything extra. Casual gamers will buy models just because they look cool.

[Prathios]

GW don't update their rules as often as we'd like because first and foremost, they're a miniature company, not a games company. Yes, they have several games, but it all started as, and I quote, 'a bunch of guys who glued guns to their DnD orks' (or something to that effect).

 

The problem of course is that forums tend to attract the gamers more than the painters, so we don't realise just how many people collect the models without playing the games. Someone above said that GW make most of their money off tournament players buying a new army every year or so, I'd like to disagree with that. Those people who collect the models will often buy a lot more models than those who play purely in tournaments, and those who collect an army they like and play will often buy more models while they work out what works and what doesn't. Tournament players collect to a fixed list, and don't buy anything extra. Casual gamers will buy models just because they look cool.

 

I would like to respectfully but vehemently disagree with this post. First let me point to the black library. For a miniatures company they sure do sell a lot of books. Let me point to Forge World, for a company even smaller than its parent it sure does keep its rules and written material current.

 

The problem has nothing to do with forums attracting gamers and not just modelers. It doesn't matter if GW sells more to any specific crowd. They sell a ton of figures to people who play a game. The make money off the codices and rulebooks, this alone is warrant enough to keep them updated. Their failure to update the guides is simply terrible company policy. It requires so little of them to do it, and demand for it is huge. The should feel obligated as a business to meet this need of its buying populace and yet it does nothing... perhaps because it doesn't impact their sales. I'm not hating on GW this is just the nature of the problem. I buy their stuff anyway myself but I'm more than entitled to voice my dissatisfaction with their failure to communicate.

 

Let me end by making an example. In PC games it is routine for a game to be buggy when launched (the best companies know better than this but it happens) and there are people of all sorts who send in and post messages of their bugs and problems. The majority of people experience almost no bugs and there are pockets who experience bad ones. The game developer is required to go back and fix its bugs (much like fixing a codex issue) so that all its customers can play its game properly. The game company is under no obligation to fix these issues but if they wish to stay stigma free they do. Take online games, like World of Warcraft. It has to constantly balance, rebalance and fix code to ensure a smooth game. It has to listen to its customer base and make changes based on feedback. It is how proper business is done and they have 11 million paying customers because of it. Perhaps more people would play 40k today if the company was managed more professionally. Or perhaps not, there is no way to know. All we can do is hope, and continue to send them our money for things... sigh.