A letter to GW.

[number6]

GW don't update their rules as often as we'd like because first and foremost, they're a miniature company, not a games company. Yes, they have several games, but it all started as, and I quote, 'a bunch of guys who glued guns to their DnD orks' (or something to that effect).

I have two friends who managed two different GW stores here in the US, and they told me that this is exactly what GW says: they make miniatures, not games. This attitude is why their rules are so poorly written and supported.

 

However, what they say they do and what they actually do are two completely different things. How does GW attract people to "the hobby"? They invite newbies to play the game. They don't give them a sample mini, some paint, brushes, clippers, files, a razor saw, and green stuff and teach them to enjoy the pleasures of building, converting, and painting. Nor do they invite people to read any Black Library books. They don't have a packet of short stories introducing people to the Warhammer and Warhammer 40K worlds.

 

The games are the hook. Without the games, they have nothing and no way to quickly attract new customers. If the game is fun enough to play, the fluff and models are what keep people involved because it invites them to keep trying new things. But again, without a fun game, there simply aren't enough "true modelers" around to keep GW afloat at anywhere near the size they are now.

 

And on top of that, they maintain the name "Games" Workshop. Somewhere, therefor, they must recognize the truth of the situation. But they are too tunnel-visioned to bring that acknowledgment to the fore-conscious and make rational business decisions based upon that. This willful ignorance is the source of both the gaming community's collective frustration and GW's oft-baffling corporate decisions. (Of which this is just the latest.)

 

For the curious: I posted thoughts on this subject on LO last fall here and here. In short: it wouldn't hurt GW to wake up to reality.

[Captain Malachi]

Guys, don't get me wrong, I completely agree, they really, really should get the FAQs and such like out on time. I'm just explaining part of the reason why they don't, I guess you could say I'm playing devil's advocate.

 

Oh, and Number6, for the record they do do painting lessons as well as intro games, but admittedly more people choose the game. However, that's not to say they stick with it once they start painting. Nor do those who pick the painting lesson necessarily never play the game.

[SamaNagol]

When you walk into a store the first thing you see are the gaming tables. The first thing they suggest to you is an 'introductory game'.

 

I am in complete agreement with number6. And it is just dreadful management and an unsustainable business plan. Growth with no thought nor consideration towards retaining custom.

[jeffersonian000]

Just a quick comment: sorry that my posts come off as argumentative; I write with passion, and it bleeds over into my posts. I've no intention of ruffling anyone's feathers.

 

Now, about my previous posts: I started with Rogue Trader and enjoyed playing 2nd Ed, but I did not like 3rd Ed, did not play 4th Ed at all, and have recently started playing 5th Ed. In all that time, I've primarily played role-playing games with table top war games as a second passion. I'm also an engineer, with a tendency to fix my problems rather than ask others to fix my problems. In this, I do understand where GW is coming from with their response: they are a business and as such have only one primary focus, and that is to make money. And they seem to be doing fairly well at that. Do they make the best decisions for their clients? Maybe not. Do they make the best decisions for their shareholders? Maybe not. Are they profitable? I'd say yes.

 

As a business, GW has a need to turn a profit, and that means selling a produce at a profit. The more folks that buy their product, the more profit. The cheaper to produce their product, the more profit. To the first, GW has always exploited their clients to increase their market share by putting their products in retail store at a discount followed shortly by putting in a store across the street from the more profitable retailers and then undercutting that retailers margin of profit (something that is illegal in the USA, but not so much in the rest of the world). To the second, they have moved from metal to plastic, own their own publishing company, and have started their own resin company to handle high-end/low-count products. This is how GW stays in business. As long as people purchase their product, they really have no need to update their product. In order to keep people purchasing their product, they have to update their product. It's the balance between those two that sets their production schedule of new releases of models, books, and accessories.

 

The response given to the letter was that they while they will continue to take our views under advisement, our individual views are not their immediate concern. The Truth.

 

Whether you like it or not, it’s better to have been told the truth than to have been lied to. GW told us all the truth. I found that refreshing. They also pointed out that there is already a rules arbitration mechanism in place in their current rules set for 40k, and politely recommended using it until such time as their production schedule warrants publishing any updates. Another Truth.

 

Which I found refreshing. I'm a cynic, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

SJ

[gil galed]

Whether you like it or not, it’s better to have been told the truth than to have been lied to. GW told us all the truth. I found that refreshing. They also pointed out that there is already a rules arbitration mechanism in place in their current rules set for 40k, and politely recommended using it until such time as their production schedule warrants publishing any updates. Another Truth.

 

 

I don't think a 'roll off' is a rules arbitration mechanism, if i wanted a game which hinged more on luck than skill i'd go an play roulette,

 

It's like God saying "I can't be bothered with this whole salvation thing, just roll a d6 1-3 you go down, 4-6 you go up, i'll sort it out in the near future" (and never does)

 

 

What i dont understand is everyone says "it's all about the money", but making balanced lists and actually updating codex's means they will make more money. Why does no one buy DE? because they have an old codex and old models and lots of people see them as weak. Make all lists balanced and people will collect more and more armies, if i know i should be able to win based on my skill equally with all armies i'm less inclined to stick with an army i know is good (like drop pod marines)

[the jeske]

Why does no one buy DE? because they have an old codex and old models and lots of people see them as weak.

see your thinking here like someone who already plays the game . after you started and army GW is no longer interested in you [or at least not as much as the people that buy their first models/codex] . a new player doesnt know that DE exist , so he want know their are bad/broken/old etc same with everything else . a new player doesnt know how bland and boring the new chaos dex is or what people lost with the new sm codex . why because dont know how stuff looked before . GW has its whole sales build around people that start buy an army[or rather parents do it] and thats it . For them if you dont like dex x or y your cool friends will let you play your army the way you like it or if that doesnt happen you will just change and play another army . for them rules or the game are a secondery thing [unlike gamers] , because as they always said , they are a models selling company first and rules making second.

[boreas]

What i dont understand is everyone says "it's all about the money", but making balanced lists and actually updating codex's means they will make more money. Why does no one buy DE? because they have an old codex and old models and lots of people see them as weak. Make all lists balanced and people will collect more and more armies, if i know i should be able to win based on my skill equally with all armies i'm less inclined to stick with an army i know is good (like drop pod marines)

 

Quite true... As a businessman myself, GW's model is really intriguing to me. There must be lots of things going on behind the scenes we don't know about, because so many things just don't make sense. Half their business (the models) is rather ace. Nice models, lots of plastics, huge kits, scenery, etc. Also, you buy something defective and it's replaced right away, no questions asked. They might even give you a whole new kit... The other half (the rules) is mediocre at best. The core rules are fairly good, but the whole codexes part is really bad. Very long update time for all armies except marines, no real effort on FAQs, typos, apparently no playtesting...

 

Now, some will say "GW sells models, not rules. It's their busines". Ok, fair enough. But when rules are the main reason customers buy your models (apart from 1-2% hard core modellers), you use them to sell more models. Actually, if rules weren't the thing they want to cash on, they should give them out as PDF's (as suggested by lots of players!). The main reason 98% of players buy new models is that they want to use new rules, new units a whole new army, even. Heck, each time I read a codex I want to buy the whole army...

 

Now, using crowsourcing (ie reading the boards once in a while), they could do FAQs every 3-4 months. Codexes could be updated every second year (after all, they don't need to be gigantic updates evry time, just fine tuning and adding a unit or two). That would move the business from "the huge yearly event" (à la SM or IG) to a "slow and steady movement" where all players would be tempted to buy from all armies at a time.

 

The only thing I can figure is that GW doesn't have to production capacity to put out models for all armies at the same time. It could be easier to produce 100 sprues of IG cadian that 10 of cadians, 10 of Firewarriors, 10 of guardians, etc... So they have to promote "mass" sales of an army because they can't keep up with a more aried demand.

 

Phil

[Race Bannon]

Whether you like it or not, it’s better to have been told the truth than to have been lied to. GW told us all the truth. I found that refreshing. They also pointed out that there is already a rules arbitration mechanism in place in their current rules set for 40k, and politely recommended using it until such time as their production schedule warrants publishing any updates. Another Truth.

 

I also don't like the idea of chance to settle a dispute that I would rather have clarified officially (or have better written rules so the "rules arbitration mechanism" be not used), and in a timely fashion.

 

But this quote above really is the bottom line, based on the response. Now the onus is on us, the players, to deal with the reality GW is giving us. At the same time, we, as customers, need to be giving the company enough grief to warrant them doing something about it. Until they do, all we have is the cop-out "rules arbitration mechanism" to settle the problems on a game-by-game basis. Then be mature about the results.

 

:)

[jeffersonian000]

GW makes no money on a free FAQ, and any errata they produce are a direct admission of poor quality control on their part which someone will have to answer for. Reduce both and you save money overall by not paying someone to produce a $0.00 return product (which is net loss any way you look at it). The goal is to get new people buying, while maintaining the current customer base without losing money to work that does not support either effort.

 

Which pretty much means that we most likely will not see any errata or new FAQ's in the immediate future; however, we may see a new set of both shortly after the next new codex release or with Planet Strike. My money is on a FAQ released in WD with PDF copy available on-line, which is more of a marketing thing than a correction to printed rules; something that looks like a net gain rather than a net loss from the shareholder point of view.

 

But that is a cold, hard look at the modern world of business. The effect it has on us the consumer is that we will be obligated to purchase each next installment just to see if there is am "intent" we can use to justify what has been written poorly. I'm not knocking GW; that is just my read on what is going on currently with GW.

 

SJ

[Eltnot]

Firstly, thanks jeffersonian for your continued input in the discussion. I personally found your views to be "refreshing". :rolleyes:

 

Getting back to the discussion at hand though, these are my thoughts on codices and errata:

 

GW doesn't make huge amounts of money on codices. They seem expensive to us, but the fact that they only make so many and there is many months of game designer labour involved keeps the margin of profit on codices low. To me they are the $10 AUD meal that you can get from the pub.

 

Models on the other hand are like the drinks. There are good margins of profit to be made by selling the customer drinks. The overall idea is to entice the customer to come in for a cheap good quality meal/codex, and actually make your significant profit on the drinks/models.

 

To this end, I do not think of Errata as money wasted so much as being a drawcard for me to buy more models. The Errata itself does not make any money and it's value is hard to quantify, but the follow on effects for providing it can make it worth the effort in additional sales that they would otherwise miss out on.

 

I am living proof of those lost sales. I'm going to be buying the last few models to finish of my respective armies and then I will cease all purchasing of GW products except for codices until their policy improves to my liking. I will continue to play their games, but am now going to spend the moeny that would be going to GW in further sales with another gaming company whom I believe provide better support at this time.

 

Were GW to change there current methods and release regular errata, then I would be working out what I would be buying as my next army (probably a rather expensive Imperial Guard army no doubt).

 

I hope that all makes sense and I'm not blathering.

 

You are right jeffersonian though, it is refreshing to see GW be a little more open about what they are intending to do.

 

To the OP, it might not be a bad idea to reply with a copy of the contents of this thread. I'm sure it will give them some suitable feedback.

[boreas]

GW makes no money on a free FAQ, and any errata they produce are a direct admission of poor quality control on their part which someone will have to answer for. Reduce both and you save money overall by not paying someone to produce a $0.00 return product (which is net loss any way you look at it). The goal is to get new people buying, while maintaining the current customer base without losing money to work that does not support either effort.

 

That, actually, is a very 1950's-1960's way to do business. The new millennium has showed that customers service is in itself an excellent way to not only retain customers, but attract new one. By attracting new one, I include people buying a second or even third army. Or people getting from WFB into WH40k and vice versa... For now, GW has a controlling part into the miniature battle games. But other games are getting attention. You hear "privateer press" and "rackham" here and there... If GW doesn't improve customer service, people will incresingly move over to other games. And when a "critical mass" of player will have done that (enough that you know you can get an opponent whenever you walk into your local club/store), they could face mass desertion.

 

For now, WH40k has the best fluff out there. The storyline is very strong with super elements. But players will get over that, one day. You'll start hearing "Yeah yeah, dead emperor, doomed mankind, chaos this, chaos that... yawn! The game sucks, dude!". Remember, Detroit's cars used to be every American's desire. Two decades of not listening to the customers (We want small, economical, reliable cars!) and they are now facing multi-billion bankruptcy!

 

Doing FAQs and update has a very low cost. Compare the yearly wage of an employee dedicated to customer service and FAQs to the cost of putting out a new set (designing and sculpting, making/buying the mold, the plastic, the transport and shipping, etc...). Add that putting that on the website uses little resources (about a day's worth of putting everything into PDF format). It has tremendous value to the company just in bought models. As an example, FAQ that Dark Angels whirlwinds get both missiles during the game (just like the regular SM's) will take about 5 minutes and sell a few whirlwinds across the globe. A FAQ that Black Templars get the "Drop-pod assault" rule will sell you quite a few pods. And the list goes on and on...

 

While I agree with you that blunt honesty is a refreshing change in this world, I'd rather have better customer service. In the long run, that would be better for both GW and the players...

 

Phil

[Dragons]

That, actually, is a very 1950's-1960's way to do business. The new millennium has showed that customers service is in itself an excellent way to not only retain customers, but attract new one. By attracting new one, I include people buying a second or even third army. Or people getting from WFB into WH40k and vice versa... For now, GW has a controlling part into the miniature battle games. But other games are getting attention. You hear "privateer press" and "rackham" here and there... If GW doesn't improve customer service, people will incresingly move over to other games. And when a "critical mass" of player will have done that (enough that you know you can get an opponent whenever you walk into your local club/store), they could face mass desertion.

 

Actually.. I'm hoping for this.. Competition breeds excellence.. Nothing will kick GW into 'high gear' faster than other companies 'stealing' their customers. And if the competition's games are better/more fun... I'll play them too!

 

For now, WH40k has the best fluff out there. The storyline is very strong with super elements. But players will get over that, one day. You'll start hearing "Yeah yeah, dead emperor, doomed mankind, chaos this, chaos that... yawn! The game sucks, dude!".

 

This fluff has been around virtually unchanged since before most of the players of 40K were born.. It's not going to 'get old'... Elves and Dwarfs aren't going anywhere either.. yawn? It's a Genre that was lifted whole cloth from Frank Herberts Novels.. it's stood the test of time.. It's not going anywhere. Hopefully some of the competiton can do something nearly as well.. but we won't know for another 20 years of so.

 

Remember, Detroit's cars used to be every American's desire. Two decades of not listening to the customers (We want small, economical, reliable cars!) and they are now facing multi-billion bankruptcy!

 

Please try not to speak for what American's want.. Numerically (based on sales) MOST americans want SUV's or Trucks (look at the numbers)... Automakers are being forced to sell products they don't want by force of law (those small, economical, reliable cars). These are not really comparable to the discussion at hand though as Detroit's problems are based not on their product but on the SnL industry that people need to PURCHASE their product having problems..

 

Doing FAQs and update has a very low cost. Compare the yearly wage of an employee dedicated to customer service and FAQs to the cost of putting out a new set (designing and sculpting, making/buying the mold, the plastic, the transport and shipping, etc...). Add that putting that on the website uses little resources (about a day's worth of putting everything into PDF format). It has tremendous value to the company just in bought models. As an example, FAQ that Dark Angels whirlwinds get both missiles during the game (just like the regular SM's) will take about 5 minutes and sell a few whirlwinds across the globe. A FAQ that Black Templars get the "Drop-pod assault" rule will sell you quite a few pods. And the list goes on and on...

 

While I don't know the answer.. I DO know that just FAQ'ing all the new stuffs/options into existance just encourages 'codex creep'.... I'd rather have new Codexes and Rules than FAQ's/Erratta to bring each up to date.

 

 

While I agree with you that blunt honesty is a refreshing change in this world, I'd rather have better customer service. In the long run, that would be better for both GW and the players...

 

I totally agree.. I hope that good stiff competiton forces GW to focus more on their rules and support. They all ready have brilliant models.

 

Here's hoping!

 

 

-Dragons

[guillaume]

Back to the original post, and the reply,

 

Is it me, or if you read the reply from GW, there are NO mention of the DH at all in the email.

 

In fact, the whole email appears to be a cut and paste response.

 

No specifics to the rules questions asked, nothing about DH...that to me is frightening customer service. The standard company replies that covers all but fills nothing.

 

Just wanted to put my 2 cents

[jeffersonian000]

Firstly, thanks jeffersonian for your continued input in the discussion. I personally found your views to be "refreshing". :D

 

Thanks! That was appreciated! :D

 

68% of customers that stop using a product or service do so because of a perceived attitude of indifference from the business in question, while only 14% stop due to actual issues with the product; the remaining 18% stop due to reasons other than the first two. Is GW's response to the letter an indication of indifference? The letter itself is an indication that the product/service is substandard and needs fixing.

 

If each of us stays with GW and continue to support their product/service, we now know that our voices will be heard yet not acted upon in a timely manner. If we each leave, will it be due to the perceived indifference or will it be due to the short-comings of the product?

 

On a personal note, I left GW 10-years ago due to the product and even back then there was a perceived indifference despite the fact that GW printed periodic updates in a regular fashion. I've only just come back because the product has improved. That puts me in the 14% category.

 

SJ

[Inquisitor_Sterngold]

I think that GW have two very different sides when it comes to customers services. Go into any GW store & you will generally find helpful, keen & enthusiastic staff. As a corperate entity they seem to struggle to re create this. There are problems with the way the rules are updated. I personally see this as a sign of the times at the moment, GW are cutting costsin order to be financially competitive. The downside to this appears to be a lack of true customer service, something that can make or break a company during a recession.

 

If you are unhappy with GW you could do what I am doing (although for different reasons) buy some shares in GW you don't need many & you therefore become entitled to attend their AGM where you can raise issues around how the company is run.

 

Just an idea..

[Brother-Captain Laen]

If you are unhappy with GW you could do what I am doing (although for different reasons) buy some shares in GW you don't need many & you therefore become entitled to attend their AGM where you can raise issues around how the company is run.

 

 

I may just do this. Damn good idea. I have tried other TTS games and have not liked the models enough to stick around. Though I do really enjoy the models that GW places before my eyes. I will be looking into GW stock within the next few days.

 

Do any of you think that the rules are good enough for casual play?

[GTang]

Weird. Question 46 of this House Rule FAQ contradicts the GW's official general 5th edition rules FAQ. I'm not sure how much to worry about these tourney rules, then even if it is a big one with GW's name on it.

[madtroll]

Why does no one buy DE? because they have an old codex and old models and lots of people see them as weak.

see your thinking here like someone who already plays the game . after you started and army GW is no longer interested in you [or at least not as much as the people that buy their first models/codex] . a new player doesnt know that DE exist , so he want know their are bad/broken/old etc same with everything else . a new player doesnt know how bland and boring the new chaos dex is or what people lost with the new sm codex . why because dont know how stuff looked before . GW has its whole sales build around people that start buy an army[or rather parents do it] and thats it . For them if you dont like dex x or y your cool friends will let you play your army the way you like it or if that doesnt happen you will just change and play another army . for them rules or the game are a secondery thing [unlike gamers] , because as they always said , they are a models selling company first and rules making second.

 

I gave my buddy, who has never played any tabletop wargame, my copy of the rules and let him read the fluff.

 

He decided that the Dark Eldar were for him.

 

He bought the $90 box, I helped him assemble and paint, and then we played.

 

Lets just say he doesn't play 40k anymore.

[Eltnot]

I gave my buddy, who has never played any tabletop wargame, my copy of the rules and let him read the fluff.

 

He decided that the Dark Eldar were for him.

 

He bought the $90 box, I helped him assemble and paint, and then we played.

 

Lets just say he doesn't play 40k anymore.

Someone quiting after playing their first game with an army that is the most fragile in the game and with the biggest learning curve vs someone who already has a couple of games under their belt? I'm not surprised since you probably trounced him everytime and that likely wasn't going to change until he jumped onto some forums and got some advice on his army by reading.

[the jeske]

He decided that the Dark Eldar were for him.

 

He bought the $90 box, I helped him assemble and paint, and then we played.

of course you did tell him that DE dont work under 1500 pts and even there they are a very hard army to play with and that fluff has nothing in common with the rules w40k is played with , you did that right?

[ArmouredWing]

I gave my buddy, who has never played any tabletop wargame, my copy of the rules and let him read the fluff.

 

He decided that the Dark Eldar were for him.

 

He bought the $90 box, I helped him assemble and paint, and then we played.

 

Lets just say he doesn't play 40k anymore.

Someone quiting after playing their first game with an army that is the most fragile in the game and with the biggest learning curve vs someone who already has a couple of games under their belt? I'm not surprised since you probably trounced him everytime and that likely wasn't going to change until he jumped onto some forums and got some advice on his army by reading.

Thing is there are some people out there who don't want to run with the crowd and have the attitude that if the mini's & fluff looks good that's the force for them. People don't always go for the rational decision when it comes to why they want to play a certain force. I know I'm one of those who really liked the darkness of C:WH and dived headfirst into collecting sisters without truly understanding how they operated on the table. As a result I had a long losing streak that almost ended with my army being placed on ebay!

 

It's a tough call, play with someting that is recognised as being a fairly simple/easy to use army and become one of many, or choose a force that requires a long hard learning process and become one of the few. At the end of the day it's all about being able to take the punishment long enough to come out the other side.

[Dilgar]

People don't always go for the rational decision when it comes to why they want to play a certain force.

 

Rational choice? Buying plastic+'support' that has no 'rational' use for houndreads of £$€ is never rational ;)

[madtroll]

lol yeah, we played one game and I trounced the crap outta him so he quit.

 

c'mon, seriously? Some of you guys are way too full of your own epeens.

 

When I gave him that book I had only played about 4 or 5 combat patrol missions with sisters of battle and I wanted to get him in into it so we could play each other. I wasn't a pro at the game.

 

We played battle for macrage first.

 

The post was in response to someone posting that new players don't know anything about dark eldar so it doesn't matter that their codex is old as hell. I just thought it was interesting because I only have one friend that I ever attempted to get into this hobby and he picked dark eldar.

 

He read the fluff and decided that dark eldar was the army for him. I told him that I didn't know anyone that played them but I heard that they were really hard.

 

How do you tell a new player that the army that they like the most is only effective if they play at 1500 points so they need to make a $300 investment to try it out? I didn't even know that to tell him.

 

Some of you probably want to post something inflammatory right now. Maybe it was his fault because he didn't get on forums and try to read up on strategies. You think he's crying about this now? "If only the Dark Eldar had a current codex... oh why me?!" He tried the game, over several matches, and decided that the only army he liked the fluff on sucked, so he didnt want to play, moving on.

 

The point is that not all new players get high off space marines and because GW has the worst rules support out of any Mini game I have played they do lose new players.

 

That guy plays Skorne for the Hordes system now. Doesnt like the skorne models or fluff as much as he did the dark eldar but it's a much cleaner system.

[Prathios]

lol yeah, we played one game and I trounced the crap outta him so he quit.

 

c'mon, seriously? Some of you guys are way too full of your own epeens.

 

When I gave him that book I had only played about 4 or 5 combat patrol missions with sisters of battle and I wanted to get him in into it so we could play each other. I wasn't a pro at the game.

 

We played battle for macrage first.

 

The post was in response to someone posting that new players don't know anything about dark eldar so it doesn't matter that their codex is old as hell. I just thought it was interesting because I only have one friend that I ever attempted to get into this hobby and he picked dark eldar.

 

He read the fluff and decided that dark eldar was the army for him. I told him that I didn't know anyone that played them but I heard that they were really hard.

 

How do you tell a new player that the army that they like the most is only effective if they play at 1500 points so they need to make a $300 investment to try it out? I didn't even know that to tell him.

 

Some of you probably want to post something inflammatory right now. Maybe it was his fault because he didn't get on forums and try to read up on strategies. You think he's crying about this now? "If only the Dark Eldar had a current codex... oh why me?!" He tried the game, over several matches, and decided that the only army he liked the fluff on sucked, so he didnt want to play, moving on.

 

The point is that not all new players get high off space marines and because GW has the worst rules support out of any Mini game I have played they do lose new players.

 

That guy plays Skorne for the Hordes system now. Doesnt like the skorne models or fluff as much as he did the dark eldar but it's a much cleaner system.

 

Flame? Hardly, I think you have a legitimate point. I don't blame him, this is exactly what several of us have been talking about as to why GW needs a new business model...