Drop Site Massacre and Invasion of Calth

[malika666]

Once again a Word Bearers thread, but this is something I'm not really getting. Lorgar split the Legion in two, one half would remain near Terra (posing as Loyalists) while the other half moved on to Calth to attack the Ultramarines.

 

If Lorgar is posing as a loyalist this means that this probably happened before the Drop Site Massacre on Istvaan V right? But, if that were the case. Wouldn't the Emperor eventually find out that there is something wrong with the Word Bearers when they only want to send in half of their Legion to stop Horus, and wouldn't the Ultramarines try to send a message to Terra about the betrayal?

 

I've been trying to look through the timelines which of the two happened first, but I can't find anything specific on it.

 

Anybody with ideas here?

[GrantDaKiller]

Lorgar left 40000 word bearers by earth to pose as loyalist. When Horus gave the order for the entire Ultramarines legion to muster at Calth to aid the Veridan system which was apparently under attack by Orks. When Guilliman and the Ultramarines arived at Calth their astropaths were unable to send any messages due to Warp storms. Then they were attacked by the word bearers. So the start of the battle would before the dropsite massacre but the end would be after it.

[malika666]

So it would be impossible for those who were present at the Drop Site Massacres to be at the Invasion of Calth as well?

[GrantDaKiller]

Yes it would. Besides the majority of the legion was there

[malika666]

Where, at Istvaan (sp?) V or at Calth?

[Hobo Willie]

My understanding was that there was a (very) small presence of Word Bearers around Terra and that after the Drop Site Massacres on Istvaan V, the Word Bearers there went to Calth.

[GrantDaKiller]

They were mostly at Calth. 40000 marines were at Istvaan 100000+ were at Calth.

[Hobo Willie]

Where do you get those numbers? My understanding is that no one knows how large each Legion was, but that they number in the five digit range, not in the six digit range.

[malika666]

According to the Collected Visions book the Legions each number 100k marines at least.

[GrantDaKiller]

Yes but it says that Kor Phaeron led over 100000 marines on Calth and also that Lorgar stationed fourty companies near Earth, being that heresy era companies were roughly the size of a 40k chapter.

[GrantDaKiller]

(This is an edit to my previous post, edit button does not work dont know why)

 

I read up on the details and i was wrong about the number of marines that are in a company, which means that only 4000 word bearers took part on Istvaan. But this still means that there were over 100000 marines in their legion. Besides there is no set number as the Ultramarines had some 250000 marines.

[malika666]

Where do you get that from? I mean if 40 companies (are we talking companies of 100 marines or those greater ones?) were stationed near Terra we can assume that 40000 participated in the Istvaan attacks and the other 100k moved to Calth.

 

However, what strikes to me as odd is that the Emperor didn't go like "hey...why are the Word Bearers only sending a faction of their Legion to Istvaan, what about the other 100k?"

 

Also, the companies/chapters kind of confuse me. In one hand we got that the Word Bearers are divided into Chapters of 10 companies of 100 marines each (thought that was a Codex Astartes invention, but ok...) meaning that there would only be a 1st to a 10th company out there of each chapter, but then there is also the 34th company. So does that one belong to a chapter with at least 34 companies?

[GrantDaKiller]

Well because companies heresy era were 100 men. So there would be over 1000 companies.

[Hobo Willie]

That really doesn't seem right.

 

1) Fulgrim states there were only tens of thousands of Astartes battling each other on Istvaan V, when 6 full Legions were present, plus the Veteran Companies from the Iron Hands. This was prior to the other four landing and the Massacres beginning. If each Legion was ~100,000, then that would be 600,000+ battling and hundreds of thousands would have been the phrase.

 

2) In one of the first three books of the Horus Heresy series, it is stated that the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus have less than 30 Companies (I can't remember the exact number, I'm thinking 23, but I'll just use 30 for an example). Which means the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, if those were all Great Companies, would have less than 30,000 marines. The Salamanders only ever had 7 Companies (one for each settlement on Nocturne), as well. Meaning that they had ~7,000 Marines if those were Great Companies prior to the Heresy. Nowhere is it written that the Salamanders and the Sons of Horus were understrength Legions.

 

3) As stated, the Dark Angels had half of their force on Caliban during the Heresy. It's hard enough to swallow if this is 5,000 marines let alone 50,000 marines just sitting there doing nothing but getting all paranoid and Chaosy.

 

4) If the average Legion was around ~100,000 marines, then ~100,000 Night Lords survived the Heresy. They didn't participate in the Heresy other than on Istvaan V where it can be assumed they took little to no casualties. If ~100,000 Night Lords survived the Heresy while only 23,000 Ultramarines (23 2nd Founding Chapters), does that make any sense as to how the Imperium survived?

 

If the Artbooks say 100,000 and 250,000, I think those have to be typos. My understanding has always been that the Legions were ~10,000 strong with deviations.

[malika666]

A systematic typo? I would probably call it inconsistency. I can understand both arguments though. I mean if the legions were split up in smaller chapters it would make sense if the legions consisted of only a couple of tens of thousands.

 

However, those numbers in a galactic scale don't make sense, especially if we consider that the Space Marines during the Great Crusade were the main fighting force, with the Imperial Guard only functioning as a garrison and back up force.

 

Besides, GW tends to use very small numbers for very big wars. I mean only a couple of million soldiers on each side for battles for entire Hive worlds? Look at WWII, they were fighting with millions and millions of soldiers, and that was primarily over one continent. The Imperium uses that same number for entire sectors? The Imperium that tends to fight like a big horde?

[GrantDaKiller]

If they were typos then whoever edited the books is a moron as it clearly states multiple times that the legions are about 100000 strong.

And at the dropsite massacre the Emperors children were only fighting the Iron Hands veteran companies which is about 10000 men.

[malika666]

If they were typos then whoever edited the books is a moron as it clearly states multiple times that the legions are about 100000 strong.

And at the dropsite massacre the Emperors children were only fighting the Iron Hands veteran companies which is about 10000 men.

 

What are the sources of that? I don't think either one of you is wrong since we are clearly dealing with one of those typical inconsistencies we've got to know and love from GW. ;)

[GrantDaKiller]

Its from the Horus Heresy Collected Visions book.

[GrantDaKiller]

Its from the Horus Heresy Collected Visions book.

[GrantDaKiller]

Argghh

Why does it keep double posting!!!!!!!!!

[Vodunius]

Considering the rest of the fluff in the Horus Heresy artbooks the 100k per legion is obviously an attempted retcon - albeit one that apparentl failed since subsequent books ignored it.

 

But, if that were the case. Wouldn't the Emperor eventually find out that there is something wrong with the Word Bearers when they only want to send in half of their Legion to stop Horus, and wouldn't the Ultramarines try to send a message to Terra about the betrayal?

 

There wouldn't really be any more reason to suspect the Word Bearers than the Iron Hands, I can very much imagine a scene along the lines of:

"My lords Lorgar and Ferrus Mannus, our beloved Emperor requests to know why you have brought so few troops to this most important of endeavours?"

"The entire might of the Iron Hands is en-route to deal with the traitors, but due to their previous deployments the vast majority of our ships will not arrive in time for the landings."

"As you know the bulk of the Word Bearers legion departed for operations on the Eastern Fringe some months ago, they too wil be unable to reach us in time."

[Hobo Willie]

At the end of Fulgrim, it's more than just the EC and IH fighting, it's the EC, WE, SoH, and DG versus the RG, IH Veterans, and Sallies. The Loyalists push forward onto the battlements prepared by the EC earlier in Fulgrim and then fall back to the drop zones where the NL, IW, AL, and WB are waiting.

 

While millions of Marines make better sense than hundreds of thousands overall, I think that Games Workshop took a page from Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Basically, the more elite and powerful a soldiery is, a smaller numerical presence is required. And of all the soldiers listed in all the science fiction I've read, Space Marines take the cake.

 

Millions of people fighting over a Hive World isn't a tiny amount at all. You have to remember that only so many people can be packed into trenches and bunkers and still effectively be fighting. There might be billions in the hive, but several hundred thousand might be all that can fill the battlements of that hive for defense. Packing more soldiers into a combat zone doesn't necessary mean victory, just higher casualties as higher density of soldiers will just mean more effective artillery and aircraft bombardments.

 

I'm sure there are conflicts that can number in the billions per side but it'd have to be on a massive, massive scale for that many soldiers to fill trenches and have space for tanks and the like.

 

If each Legion had hundreds of thousands of Astartes and the 2nd Founding only had about 50 or so Chapters (~50,000) marines, that means that well over a million Loyal Astartes died from beginning to end of the Heresy, which is more marines than there are in M41. I understand the Heresy is on an epic scale but the percentage of casualties are ridiculous. The Blood Angels went to 100,000+ to 5,000 (5 Second Founding Chapters). The white Scars went from 100,000+ to 3,000 (3 Second Founding Chapters). That's a (minimum of a) 97% drop. That type of loss is ridiculous for any of the Legions except the Raven Guard and Salamanders.

 

Now, you can theorize that the exact number of 2nd Founding Chapters to be unknown, but there are restrictions there. The Ultramarines are listed as having specifically 23. And they are also listed as having the most 2nd Founding Chapters. The Salamanders are listed as having none and the Space Wolves supposedly only have the single successor. And I doubt the Raven Guard had more than the couple listed. But here comes another point: the Iron Hands, minus their veteran Companies didn't do anything else in the Heresy. But they are only listed as having two known Successors but they can't have more than 23, so does that mean for them to have been a normal sized Legion, they would have had to have 78 Veteran (Great) Companies? Granted, they could have been a smaller Legion but they aren't listed as smaller. The only Legion that is mentioned as small is the Emperor's Children.

 

Also where are the recruits coming in? Granted, the Dark Angels have an excuse and the Imperial Fists' fleet was busy with the Heresy. But the rest of the Chapters would have steady recruits coming in still. With Traitor Legions like the Night Lords still at over 100,000 strong, you'd think recruiting would be going wild to try and make sure the Imperium had the numbers to counter that large of a threat.

 

Also, the Sons of Horus aren't listed as actually doing anything during the Siege of Terra. If that's the case, then wouldn't they still be over 100,000 marines strong? Why have any of the Black Crusades failed if the Black Legion alone can muster that? Even if it splintered to half strength, it would have taken 50 full Chapters to counteract.

 

I just don't see how the Legions would have been that large. The numbers make sense for conquering the galaxy, yes, but they don't make sense in terms of post-heresy fluff.

[Slick Jimmy]

I have to side with the HOBO on this one. Pre-heresy legions were larger than 10,000 no doubt, but there is no way they were hundreds of thousands strong. As stated by HW Fulgrim, the actual account of the istvaan massacre, states tens of thousands. I have not read collected visions, or the art book, but as is often the case, exaggerated numbers make for more exciting stories.

The biggest issue I have with the legions being that large is the simple math lesson that has been canon through 4 renditions of the existance of the warhammer 40K universe state the # of succesor chapters for each loyalist legion, and they don't add up to hundreds of thousands before hand.

The Dark Angels, whom I played and adored since mid-second edition have only ever had 3 successor chapters that all follow codex astartes numerical guidlines. So that means roughly 4000 marines survived the HH, or roughly half a legion, and since the legion split, that makes sense, otherwise they are hunting tens of thousands of fallen, and cypher would have long since gathered his brethern and ravaged Terra.

Also, legions losing over 90% of their forces would mean the chapters that took even heavier losses, raven guard, would number less than my fingers and toes. And yet they still managed successor chapters after the HH? I think not.

While hundreds of thousands sounds good, it simply does not fit into established fluff or canon. perhaps the art book is more for art than fluff.

[Vodunius]

Hobo's certainly right, 100,000 doesn't fit with post-heresy fluff and the low budget cut-down Horus Heresy GW fobbed us off with in the Index Astartes series, it does however fit with the true Horus Heresy as depicted in Space Marine 1st edition.

 

..Marines surged forward. A hundred thousand voices were raised, crying loyalty to the Emperor or to the Warmaster. Ten thousand men moaned as they died.

 

Their comrades fought on around their corpses. Some had no time to scream or pray or plead. They vanished in expanding clouds of super-heated steam as the plasma bolts of the Titans fell amongst them. Bolters rattled and chainsword clashed with armour.

 

Rhinos and Land Raiders ploughed through the manswarm like ships through spumy sea. They left red wakes. Like great beetles they scuttled amongst the ant-like men. Like beetles they were crushed under foot by towering Titans.

 

~

 

The battle surged back and forth till in the end true faith prevailed and we had mastery. Yet we were slaughtered, but one in ten survived. The city was dust.

^ Lexicanium Elissar Trask of the Ultramarines relating the battle for an unspecified* city on Tallarn - one of dozens of planets other than the Istvan III, V and Terra to see major Astartes on Astartes conflict during the Heresy era.

 

* although quite possibly the capital city of Rogsberg which was noted to have changed hands several times in the 3 year Tallarn campaign - presumably with similar levels of bloodshed.

[Slick Jimmy]

I could see a few of the legions being around 100,000 like the ultras. But even then, that means at least 75 percent casualties on their end. But is it possible that in that hundred thousand voices, non-marine imperial forces, such as titan crews, and guardsmen, were involved as well? I can imagine the guardsmen involved in guarding their home planet numbering in the hundreds of thousands.