Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 They could have been launched and not known their progenitor for millennium until they found some old AdMech records showing that they were of Lorgar's stock. That discovery turned them into pious zealots as they felt they needed to make up for what Lorgar and company did during the Heresy. I really like that, not least for the wonderful irony. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1946031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 A couple of points. Firstly the Ultramarines didn't just arrive at the end of the conflict. They were still recovering after Calth. Roboute arrived a little time after the seige, and began helping with the clear up operation. If the Word Bearers YOU want to use were alive at the end, then they'd be pulled up before Dorn or even Jaghati Khan, not Guilliam. As for there gene seed, i would just avoid the whole traitor gene side of things. Aside from speculation on Garro and the Grey Knights, why don't you just make them held under constant atonement and exstensive faith testing until the third Founding, then give them a specific chapter formed from Ultra geneseed, but make the non-traitor guys commanders who DON't pass on their gene seed. Traitor gene seed is always gonna be a no go. The only samples are kept locked up in the Hymilayain Vualts in the Emperors own labratory. The AdMec created most foundings on worlds like Mars, far from even the hint of contamination. Bare in mind, the Imperium hunts mutations in geneseed just like mutants, with the Black Dragons the only chapter i know not suffering exterminatus. They hate anything to do with Chaos, and a whole chapter stemmed from the grand architect of the HH is hardly gonna sit well. Have the survivors as leaders, by all means. But drop the gene seed being maintained schtik. Its too unplausible. If you want to make them pios, why don't you make them a chapter that actually follows the Ecclesiarchy? Found from pios men that had vast strength in worship. It's definatly original. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1946078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
De4thAnge1 Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 And now time for me to comment again. Although I know there are 'rules' for DIY chapters, I think that these are more guidelines. And while you have been flamed a bit by some people saying NO to traitor geneseed, (like I said you would :)) I think you have actually written out a really good IA and the fluff compensates for Lorgar's past no-nos. Just saying, I like the way it is. Good luck. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1946498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 Okay from what I've read I've come up with 2 options, tell me what you think. Option 1: Most of the original history stands intact. Post Heresy, the surviving 18 were held accountable, convicted of belonging to a heretic legion. For some secret reason, not even known by them, there were not put to death but locked away in a frozen prison forbidden from ever being released and being Space Marines again. Within the prison, the survivors remained close and felt true guilt for their brothers. They began an order within the inmate population, the Order of the White Hand. They became imprisoned monks and after some time most of the inmate population became followers and true believers. After their eventual deaths, the Order continued and centuries later when the prison was closed they chose to remain and convert it to their monastary. Their reputation grew but numbers remained small within the Order. Recently, because of their pious lives and beliefs not to mention the new incursions of Tau among other threats to the Imperium the Order was Founded as the White Hand Chapter from unknown geneseed. Option 2: Drop the current history altogether. Make them being formed from a zealot subgroup of another Chapter. I have to say I like option 1 better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1946504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 They could have been launched and not known their progenitor for millennium until they found some old AdMech records showing that they were of Lorgar's stock. That discovery turned them into pious zealots as they felt they needed to make up for what Lorgar and company did during the Heresy. I really liked the idea behind this one as well. Although I know there are 'rules' for DIY chapters, I think that these are more guidelines. That's all they are. Indeed, the second post in the Guide to DIYing says "This guide is meant to be just that, a guide." So they are not unbreakable rules. The point is, that if you're going to break them, you had better have good reasoning behind it, otherwise to many it will look a little cliched. And while you have been flamed by some people saying NO to traitor geneseed He hasn't been flamed at all. Option 1: Most of the original history stands intact. Post Heresy, the surviving 18 were held accountable, convicted of belonging to a heretic legion. For some secret reason, not even known by them, there were not put to death but locked away in a frozen prison forbidden from ever being released and being Space Marines again. Within the prison, the survivors remained close and felt true guilt for their brothers. Within the prison they began an order within the inmate population, the Order of the White Hand. They became imprisoned monks and after some time most of the inmate population became followers and true believers. After eventual deaths, the Order continued and centuries later when the prison was closed they chose to remain and convert it to their monastary. Their reputation crew but numbers remained small within the Order. Recently, because of their pious lives and beliefs not to mention the new incursions of Tau among other threats to the Imperium the Order was Founded as the White Hand Chapter from unknown geneseed. The only problem with this is that the marines would have lived for about 10 000 years. Astartes generally begin to show signs of wear and tear at 400-500 (look a Cassius), though that depends on their genestock. So I don't know that that one really works. As I said before, I rather like the made in the 21st Founding and then they find out they are of Lorgar's geneseed, leading to their zealousness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1946526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 The only problem with this is that the marines would have lived for about 10 000 years. Astartes generally begin to show signs of wear and tear at 400-500 (look a Cassius), though that depends on their genestock. So I don't know that that one really works. As I said before, I rather like the made in the 21st Founding and then they find out they are of Lorgar's geneseed, leading to their zealousness. So if there were from the first founding, they'd have died in M39. So if I change it to they were still alive and forgotten when the prison eventually closed and chose with the others to remain .... work then? That still gave the order 2,000 years after they died to carry on as an order. Problem with using the 21st Founding idea is it'd still be Logar's geneseed and that's what everyone is trying to keep me from doing. So no real difference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1946547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 I really like your new idea. Prisoners forgotten or repented seems cool. But i would agree with you that the Word Bearers should really be dead by the piont their made a chapter. Does anyone actually know how long a Marine lives for, anyway? Dante is the oldest known so far, being 800, but where in the fluff does is state an age? Thats an actual question, its good to know! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1946802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostLegion Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 You know, though I tend toward the "no traitor geneseed" camp, I do think you have crafted a workable exception to this... However, I would put up a pointer that the 21st founding does not sound like the right place for your idea. The Cursed Founding had more mutations to the geneseed, hence its name. To me, I would think you would fit better into the 13th founding, the Dark Founding, of which little is known. Though this could be considered a cliche, it is an engineered cliche on the part of GW, and therefor acceptable within the 40k universe. The advantage of this founding is that you could use it to continue with the Word Bearers geneseed as an experiment and the chapter could be under continual watch by (insert organization name here). As to your options, well I think both are rather limited in light of what you have already written and I suspect you can identify a more workable idea that may not require you to do so much of a rewrite to what you have in place. just my thoughts... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1946832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 I think the 13st or the 21st would work, actually. The 21st's goal was to 'fix flawed geneseed' and I can't imagine what they consider more flawed than traitor geneseed. It was the Cursed founding because most either met horrific ends or turned traitor. The 13th could work as well as no one knows anything about it and according to the Lexicanum, there is no possession of the original geneseed used, unlike the other Foundings. Ecritter, there is the sus-an membrane if you need them to survive longer. But remember that they have to have someone put them in and take them out. Unless you are dealing with Zho Sahaal. He just wakes up when and where he pleases because he's that badass. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1947091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kil78 Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 the prison thing seems bad ass Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1947186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 I'll be working on a rewrite of my orginal post with lots more fluff .... will be up sometime tonite. Thanks for all the help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1947974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Justinian Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 its a cool idea and i really like your paints scheme. ive got an idea myself as to how a person could have 2nd foundings of the original traitor marines that are still loyal to the emperor. but i like yours, maby flesh it out a little bit more Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1947985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mordray Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 [begin thoughts]A stasis generator is an interesting thing. It slows 'time' to such a point as to stop existing. Imagine if a stasis prison were to start malfunctioning and began to slowly return a group of 'prisoners' to normal time...[end thoughts] Interesting idea looks like your on track for a working loyalist traitor chapter, keep up the good work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1947995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 its a cool idea and i really like your paints scheme. ive got an idea myself as to how a person could have 2nd foundings of the original traitor marines that are still loyal to the emperor. but i like yours, maby flesh it out a little bit more Thanks, I should have my first real Marine painted soon. -------------------------------- Original post changed with new history and some added rituals and rites along with some other added fluff. Tell me what you think. Also, time for a question. Based on this new history and belief system ... is it too far out to say they never make a break check. Whether the player wants to retreat or break or not, there's no choice ... they stay and fight to the death? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1948010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 No comments on the new history? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1949407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serif Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 I like it... though I think that you will need to include a brief story outline just how huge and insane the loyals left on Terra behaved. There are two things ranking Marines seem to pause and listen to: 1) Insane, Primarchial acts of heroism 2) Marines of equal or superior rank or of respected office So account for an amazing offensive or counter-offensive action undertaken by them and a captain or chaplain to have survived with the 18. Otherwise, why would a Primarch listen to a lowly marine, or lower still, guard officers? I enjoy the idea you have outlined. And it would stand to reason that they would want to have some idea of what went wrong. So, insane primarchial heroism + surviving high rank + a need to understand (the empire was not thoroughly afraid of knowledge at that time), would create a world in which they could possibly live. Any particular reason for the White Hands as a name? Is it to intone that their hands were clean, that they were innocent? Cheers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1949528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 Well I left the reason for their being kept alive a secret, even to them. Was it a Primarch that interceeded? The Imperial Guards they fought with? The Emperor himself? We may never know. The White Hand .... just like it. And it does symbolize innocence so its appropriate. ---------------------- Any comments on the special rules for them No Retreat: Must end move the same distance or closer to enemy units No Break: Ignore break checks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1949559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serif Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 No break means that your whole army is fearless... me thinks too much. Maybe say your whole army is stubborn, which is easily replicated in game by taking a Kantor counts-as Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1949592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 But they are fearless and seek death in battle. That's one reason they can only field 5 (now 4) companies. And remember there are times when you want your troops to fall back as a player, this is as much a hinderance as a boon. If its too much I can alter it, but the whole Chapter will loose some of its flare. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1949600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serif Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 I constantly try, but this is just me, to ensure that my fluff and my table match. If this is just hypothetical for you and you aren't actually doing a marine army to match it, then I see no problem with calling them fearless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1949602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 I constantly try, but this is just me, to ensure that my fluff and my table match. If this is just hypothetical for you and you aren't actually doing a marine army to match it, then I see no problem with calling them fearless. Actually I want to make this army, do you have suggestions of how to match my story and thoughts on the fealessness and death seeking of the Chapter that isn't over the top? Maybe giving them a better success number and/or a reroll? Its not the feel I want, but I am willing to sacrifice to keep things fair. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1949607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serif Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 well... there's the stubborn thing.... you could also use the Blood Angels codex and always max out the Death Company.... take two chaplains to put with OTHER units and there you have 3 fearless units... not sure what else you have to play with in the codexi we have... I am not familiar with DA or Templars dex's Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1949628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted April 11, 2009 Author Share Posted April 11, 2009 Okay, I dropped the no retreat rule .... for now. But I added in the other rule. Combat Advancing: White Hand units must end their move the same distance or closer to enemy units if at all possible. Is the Chapter acceptable as is now? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1950733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serif Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 don't get me wrong guy. The chapter was just fine as it was, I'm just trying to offer advice that fits both fluff and function. Self imposed restrictions are great, it's the bonuses that people can take issue with in game. as a semi-related side note, I noticed you asked Bjorn Irongaze to work on your special character for you... would you mind if I had a go at him? You can see if you like what I do shortly as I post mine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1950740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted April 11, 2009 Author Share Posted April 11, 2009 Well, with no break being both a flaw and a bonus, and They Shall Know No Fear covering most of it .... I'll play it by ear I guess. ------------------------------------------------- That would be great, I have some additional info on him for you to go by. His main weapons is a Relic Axe (the bone is one of the bones of the 18). http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/ecritter/Space%20Marines/41M49E5W9CL__SS500_.jpg Other then that, he stands as a shining example of the White Hand Chapter ... so the writeup covers most everything else. You can do the other notable characters I came up with too if you want, they're all on the first post but I've not done more then name them so they're pretty open. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/2/#findComment-1950758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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