The 13th Goat Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Don't they usually refer to him as the God-Emperor, not the other way round? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1969539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 Pronoun use is a little weak, and you say Emperor-god quite a bit. Maybe: The monks of the Order of the White Hand were pious worshippers of the Emperor, granted the privilege of serving as warriors of the Imperium. The Disciples of the White Hand were born, and now fight the Emperor's enemies without question. Aboard their Strike Cruisers, they are ever vigilant, patrolling the Imperium, confronting all foes of Man, spreading the word of the God-Emperor. They are Space Marines, and they know no fear. At minimum, you need to get rid of the more gratuitous capitals. They make it read like a Stan Lee superhero introduction. edited Mentioning human rights feels weird. People have rights at all in the Imperium? Also, "within the penal worlds" makes it sound like they're all underground. Now, while I liked the Chronicles of Riddick, I am possibly the only person in North America who did. Say "on". Also, never having them be punished would seem even better - no law. No mercy. All that stuff. edited The Parable of the White Hand. Or something. You need to set the whole "religious fable/tale/teaching" tone at the start, and titling it such would seem the easiest way to do that. Might work a little better like: "On the thirtieth night after the Great Teachers began to preach, a fire trapped hundreds of inmates in one of the prison wards. The Great Teachers rushed to their aid, but the ward was sealed by a great iron gate. Inmates both inside and out of the ward began to cry out in fear and terror, for they saw no way for them to be saved. But the leader of the Great Teachers brought [a note. NEVER belch forth ANYTHING in a parable. Kills the tone] forth holy fire and melted the seal away, and he and his Teachers did enter the ward to save those who could not reach the gate on their own, and their rags were burnt and scorched by the time they carried the last inmate from the ward. In the inferno, the Great Teachers had all been badly burned, but when their followers rushed to bandage their wounds, the leader of the Teachers raised his right hand. Though it had been burnt in the fires, it did not blister or bleed. It was pallid and white, but healing before their very eyes. "Behold the blessing of the Emperor," he proclaimed, and the prisoners fell down and wept at the power of the Lord of Mankind." More formality and such is necessary, IMO, to get the tone I would expect you to be after with that sort of thing. edited I'd use a term other than brutes. Colossi? Men, even (though if you use men, take out the second use of it in the sentence). not edited. The other inmates would have seen them as towering brutes. Remember they're on a penal world where the biggest and meanest ruled. That's...not how chapter selection works. They don't just grab a group and say "here, be a Space Marine chapter". Honest. Edited somewhat. Exact reason for the inclusion of the Order is not known. Not a better way for me to say it. Again, I think the effect of this would be greatly improved by hinting at it in a few spots in the background and letting people work it out themselves. It's already pretty clear the teachers are Space Marines. Throw in a few Word-Bearer-esque references in places, maybe a few concerns about their religious fanatacism...even the way they sometimes are slow to redeploy due to converting the populace... People'll guess on their own, which is more fun for them, and you get to be a little sneaky, which can be a lot more fun. At minimum, take it out of the middle of the IA and put it at the end. What you could do, if the idea strikes your fancy, is have the geneseed of the Disciples somehow drawn from the bodies of the original Great Teachers by the Mechanicus genetors responsible for the Cursed Founding. Their bodies are likely preserved somewhere, and it is apparently quite cold... After all, Marines who could have an effect over such centuries and be so loyal could be no traitors... moved and edited hat is this secret reason? You don't have to tell us, but you should have one. Relying on deus ex machinas is a very bad habit to get into. edited adding speculation You could add assorted Imperial organizations wild speculations on their geneseed. Throw in a few red herrings, plus the truth. edited adding speculation For the life of me, I do not see why Stubborn does not work for this. If anything, it might be more effective, and it's actually got existing rules. I looked over Stubborn and every other existing rule and nothing fits what I want. If I could find rules to use I would. I think loosing Combat Tactics and replacing it with Study is a fair and reasonable trade. a little too informal/colloquial. Don't "pull people from the flames", draw them from the flames. Don't have things "come to a stop", have things cease or dwindle away. Don't say "Odd fact, but the monastery's unheated". Say "Unusually, the monastery has no obvious source of heat or energy". Pretend it's a formal essay. Alternately, pretend to be a slightly pedantic and overly formal but still competent Administratum scribe. I tried to edit some along the way Combat Doctrine edited, guess we're really non codex now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1969755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 New combat doctrine does away with Devastator squads altogether .... instead using armored vehicles in their place. This allows for the Sternguard and more Assault Squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1969759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 Is it ready now? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1970891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 While waiting on suggestions and comments on how to get this on the index, I had time to work on something. White Hand Strike Cruiser Agamemnon in orbit http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/ecritter/Space%20Marines/Agamemnon-6.png The Gathering http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/ecritter/Space%20Marines/TheGathering.png Featuring the Strike Cruisers of the White Hand; Xerxes, of the 1st Company; Agamemnon, of the 2nd Company; Herakles, of the 3rd Company; and Alexander, of the 5th Company. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1976061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 Bumping. Not letting my Chapter fall to the wayside. I want it complete. Also, I'll be working on the entire White Hand fleet, so looks like I need to design a Destroyer, two Frigates and the Thunderhawk still. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1983477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 I had a thought and wanted to discuss it before I do a major rewrite. Since the Disciples are just a small portion of the Order, is it so unbelieveable that the Chapter is lead by the Order? In other words a Chapter of Space Marines with a normal human as Chapter Master. Its not impossible for a Space Marine to be Grand Master, and I'll say its happened at least once in their history, but being just a small group within the order its more likely that a normal human would be Grand Master. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1986127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Ecritter Posted May 10 2009, 11:05 PM Bumping. Not letting my Chapter fall to the wayside. I want it complete. Put a link in your sig, and if you're looking to submit this to the Librarium, ask a Lexicanum for a hand. Since the Disciples are just a small portion of the Order, is it so unbelieveable that the Chapter is lead by the Order? In other words a Chapter of Space Marines with a normal human as Chapter Master. Its not impossible for a Space Marine to be Grand Master, and I'll say its happened at least once in their history, but being just a small group within the order its more likely that a normal human would be Grand Master. Could you explain a little more? The only Chapters with humans as their "Chapter Masters" are the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch, who both answer to the Inquisition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1986279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 I have asked, and getting no where fast (well slowly but still getting no where). ****************** If you read the IA, you'll see that the Disciples (Space Marines) are drawn from the Order of the White Hand (normal humans). The Disciples are only a small percentage of the Order and the Order controls all the ships (since Space Marines don't actually command the fleet ships). What I"m asking is (and you pointed out a couple examples of it happening), is it far fetched to have the Disciples answer to a normal human Chapter Master because he controls the Order? Now, I see no real reason for a Chapter set up in this way to be forced to be under Inquisitor control, correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1986284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Now, I see no real reason for a Chapter set up in this way to be forced to be under Inquisitor control, correct me if I'm wrong. Yes there is. The other Inquisitors will promptly initiate a "Group Exterminatus" on that Inquisitor for trying to get too much power. Or, if it's the entire Inquisition itself (would never happen BTW, there'd be far too much internal conflict and power politics over something like this), it would kick off a galactic civil war as the other Space Marine Chapters all band together to protect their Emperor-given autonomy. The only way you could be directly ordered about by an Inquisitor is if you are put on a penitent crusade. Even then they are extremely unlikely to fill the Chapter Master position themselvesm it would just trigger the first reaction I listed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1986318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 I'm not talking about the Chapter being led by an Inquisitor, just having a normal Human as Chapter Master. Say, the leader of the Order (a normal human) is also leader of the Disciples ... so the Order leads the Disciples. Understand now? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1987351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Ecritter Posted Today, 04:53 AM I'm not talking about the Chapter being led by an Inquisitor, just having a normal Human as Chapter Master. Say, the leader of the Order (a normal human) is also leader of the Disciples ... so the Order leads the Disciples. Understand now? I'm not sure how you would do it, but I think it's workable. Give it a try and we'll see how it turns out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1987550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Leader of the Chapter rewritten and incorporated, I think this thing is finished now .... if it can be submitted now? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1991575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Is he a special human, or just some old guy? I like the way the Brotherhood of Steel answers to a non-combatant who used to be a formal combatant, so maybe have him be an Astartes that no longer fights. It is unique and original, and since it is a DIY, you could definitely get away with it. I just can't see a mortal ever commanding an Astartes Chapter, it would be like an Astartes leading a Sororitas Convent, or a Guard Colonel in charge of a Grey Knight Strike Force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1991804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 (F)or many years, the Order of the White Hand had been observed by the Adeptus Terra with great interest. They were renown for their devotion and love of the god-Emperor. Why are they so special? Remember the Adeptus Terra is sited right next door to the Ecclesiarchy, home of the Sisters of Battle, and in the same system as the Grey Knights, whose faith has never failed. Just saying your Chapter is more devoted doesn't mean anything, you need to explain it more. Plus I see it appearing in more and more DIYs here, it seems to have become standard for trying to make a Chapter "extra-special". At the moment, I look at it and think "I've seen that somewhere before. And there too, and there, and in that one as well. Plus how does that work anyway?". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1991820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Is he a special human, or just some old guy? I like the way the Brotherhood of Steel answers to a non-combatant who used to be a formal combatant, so maybe have him be an Astartes that no longer fights. It is unique and original, and since it is a DIY, you could definitely get away with it. I just can't see a mortal ever commanding an Astartes Chapter, it would be like an Astartes leading a Sororitas Convent, or a Guard Colonel in charge of a Grey Knight Strike Force. The Order is set up similiarly to the Shaolin Monks ... so he's just an old guy, a very wish old guy who can kick most people's butts. Why are they so special? Remember the Adeptus Terra is sited right next door to the Ecclesiarchy, home of the Sisters of Battle, and in the same system as the Grey Knights, whose faith has never failed. Just saying your Chapter is more devoted doesn't mean anything, you need to explain it more. Plus I see it appearing in more and more DIYs here, it seems to have become standard for trying to make a Chapter "extra-special". At the moment, I look at it and think "I've seen that somewhere before. And there too, and there, and in that one as well. Plus how does that work anyway?". Well they did dump 18 loyal Space Marines from a traitor chapter on the penal world, and those Space Marines started the Order ... that alone would be of interest to the Adedpus Terra. Perhaps they've been a test from the beginning (I never said how long they were being observed), or just came to their attention after a few hundred years. The Order has been devoted and spreading for thousands of years. Isn't thousands of years of devotion enough? What would you suggest? Been working on this Chapter for a while now, not sure what came before them and what came after. Anyway, the chapter isn't special ... the Order is kinda special in a way I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-1992819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Well, its been quite a while and Octavulg never replied to my message .... so I'm wondering if my chapters will ever be acceptable? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-2048043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Ecritter Posted Jul 13 2009, 08:24 AM Well, its been quite a while and Octavulg never replied to my message .... so I'm wondering if my chapters will ever be acceptable? In that case, I'll grab this one while he's not looking. :D Your presentation is excellent, zero problems with the coding there. Some sections do need merging and/or restructuring though. "The Order of the White Hand", "The White Hand Disciples" and "The Hidden Truth" should be merged into one section. Most of the bits on Lorgar and the Word Bearers that we already know (who they are, the Emperor's directive to stop worshipping him etc) should be taken out - they don't add anything to the IA. Only keep the bits that directly relate to your Chapter. "Rituals, Rites and Relics" should be part of the "Beliefs" section. Notable White Hands should get a sidebar or not be mentioned at all, there's little point in dropping names only to not tell us anything about them. Either way, they don't deserve a main text section of their own. "Special Rules" shouldn't really be included, IMO. It's all very well to have them for gameplay, but unless you're trying to market your Chapter to other 40k players (as GW did), then they don't really belong in the IA. From their base on Zel Primus, word of the Order and its pious teachings are well known to those in power in the Imperium I would change this to "those in power in the Ecclesiarchy". The Administratum and other factions are unlikely to care about a group of monks, the Inquisition will probably have them on a list of allowed cults but that would be it. Why should anyone other than the Ecclesiarchy care about them? He sent the marines he knew would not turn to Terra to build a grand temple to the Emperor. You're planning on having them contravene the Emperor's direct order right under his nose? Sorry, but that really breaks the suspension of disbelief. Perhaps if they were sent on a mission to convince the Emperor of the benefits of being declared a god? Lorgar would know that the events of the Heresy would overtake the Emperor and give him more important things to deal with before the Marines ever got to present their case. The fact that the Great Teachers were in fact imprisoned Space Marines is an understood reality. "An understood reality, but a dim memory at best" might be better. Having it as common knowledge is going to cause that information to leak out at some point. Better to throw in an element of confusion and speculation (on the part of the monks), in my opinion. the Order of the White Hand had been observed by the Adeptus Terra with great interest. Again, the Ecclesiarchy would be better. The Administratum is unlikely to care, whilst monks and piety are the Ecclesiarchy's stock in trade. early in the thirty-sixth millennium of man the Order was added to the great history of the Space Marines of the Legiones Astartes Adeptus Astartes. The Legiones Astartes refers to the Legions, who by this point only exist in the Traitor Legions. Only the highest officials in the Adeptus Terra know the truth and are ever watchful of the Disciples actions for any sign of turning. For the reasons I outlined above, this should change to the Ecclesiarchy. More to the point, if the Administratum knows, then it will have a record of it. That makes it so much easier to discover the truth about the Chapter's founders. only return to the monastery on two occasions however, to gather new recruits when they are seriously below strength and once every decade all the companies return in a time called The Gathering Isn't there a garrison maintained to protect the Fortress-Monastery? Some speculate that is the geneseed of the great Primarch Roboute Guilliman, while other say its the geneseed of the Great Teachers themselves. But the truth is no one knows. It would be better to say "But the truth is no-one knows - both the Chapter and the Adeptus Mechanicus are unwilling to disclose details, save that there are no issues of concern with the gene-seed." Like the Shaolin monks of old, they practice the martial arts daily to build their bodies and calm their minds. If you have to mention names, use a corrupted, slightly altered version. Even if the Shaolin survived the Age of Strife, they would have been destroyed by the Emperor in the Unification Wars and the Great Crusade. That doesn't mean their martial arts wouldn't have survived, just the original practitioners and who they were. After all, what's more likely to have survived the Age of Strife than what could be used to survive it? Once that's been resolved, you should be done. Good work. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-2054261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 I'll do some rewriting to make several of the suggested changes, but I wanted to discuss a couple first. I would change this to "those in power in the Ecclesiarchy". The Administratum and other factions are unlikely to care about a group of monks, the Inquisition will probably have them on a list of allowed cults but that would be it. Why should anyone other than the Ecclesiarchy care about them? This is because of the jaded beginnings of the Order .... having been begun by what the Imperium believes to be traitors more then the Ecclesiarchy would be interested in watching them. This all goes back to the secret reason that the traitors were imprisoned instead of being killed and if all maries in traitor legions were all really traitors just by the actions of their brothers. The truth is they are being watched ... for unknown reasons by the Admin. Perhaps they are an experiment or test of loyality. "An understood reality, but a dim memory at best" might be better. Having it as common knowledge is going to cause that information to leak out at some point. Better to throw in an element of confusion and speculation (on the part of the monks), in my opinion. I see it as common knowledge, at least to anyone interested in checking. The Monks aren't ashamed of the Order's beginnings ... but they don't really brag on it either. It would be better to say "But the truth is no-one knows - both the Chapter and the Adeptus Mechanicus are unwilling to disclose details, save that there are no issues of concern with the gene-seed." The Order/Chapter neither nor care of the gene-seed. Not that the AdMech are unwilling, just that no one has really asked ... or at least anyone with a right to know. Honestly that was all put in to satisfy Oct. Adeptus Astartes. The Legiones Astartes refers to the Legions, who by this point only exist in the Traitor Legions. I took that straight from the book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-2054641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I would change this to "those in power in the Ecclesiarchy". The Administratum and other factions are unlikely to care about a group of monks, the Inquisition will probably have them on a list of allowed cults but that would be it. Why should anyone other than the Ecclesiarchy care about them? This is because of the jaded beginnings of the Order .... having been begun by what the Imperium believes to be traitors more then the Ecclesiarchy would be interested in watching them. This all goes back to the secret reason that the traitors were imprisoned instead of being killed and if all maries in traitor legions were all really traitors just by the actions of their brothers. The truth is they are being watched ... for unknown reasons by the Admin. Perhaps they are an experiment or test of loyality. The problem I have with that is that it would provoke a power struggle. Since the Imperium is disunited, not everyone's going to agree. If word gets out about these traitors, those who disagree won't have much trouble getting support for military action against them. That means that in order to preserve the Chapter, any possible detractors can't be allowed to know about the traitors. It's quite hard to have the Administratum (or really any one organisation) all knowing, but the secret not getting out. You need less people to know about it to make keeping the secret more plausible. Having a cross-organisation group of individuals know is fine, but more than one organisation (or even just one) knowing is too much - there's far too many of them. "An understood reality, but a dim memory at best" might be better. Having it as common knowledge is going to cause that information to leak out at some point. Better to throw in an element of confusion and speculation (on the part of the monks), in my opinion. I see it as common knowledge, at least to anyone interested in checking. The Monks aren't ashamed of the Order's beginnings ... but they don't really brag on it either. The problem I have with that is that it would be checked. The Inquisition exists precisely to leave no stone unturned, what's to stop them finding out about your Chapter's past? Ideally, you need some kind of safeguard to prevent them from finding out. Perhaps they are reluctant to tell outsiders? The Order/Chapter neither nor care of the gene-seed. Not that the AdMech are unwilling, just that no one has really asked ... or at least anyone with a right to know. Honestly that was all put in to satisfy Oct. OK, I'll stick with that then. Adeptus Astartes. The Legiones Astartes refers to the Legions, who by this point only exist in the Traitor Legions.I took that straight from the book. Really? Oh well. Very confusing to my eyes, but I guess that's GW. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-2054826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 This chapter's story is extremely interesting. Like many readers, I initially feared that this story would get incredibly silly, very quickly. I like the "Word Bearer origins, but not Word Bearer geneseed" ideas. Very crafty. Certainly having the chapter, however it begun, most rigorously denying any links to descent from a traitor legion would have a nice ring of irony to it. Every attempt I've made to incorporate traitor pasts into a chapter have resulted in said chapter's existence being rendered patently ridiculous, but this story is much better. It reads quite well, too. :lol: Good work. I'll read the finished article with interest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-2056186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Good work. I'll read the finished article with interest I'll post a link in here when (and I mean when, not if, assuming Ecritter wants that) it goes in the Librarium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-2056268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 This chapter's story is extremely interesting. Like many readers, I initially feared that this story would get incredibly silly, very quickly. I like the "Word Bearer origins, but not Word Bearer geneseed" ideas. Very crafty. Certainly having the chapter, however it begun, most rigorously denying any links to descent from a traitor legion would have a nice ring of irony to it. Every attempt I've made to incorporate traitor pasts into a chapter have resulted in said chapter's existence being rendered patently ridiculous, but this story is much better. It reads quite well, too. :D Good work. I'll read the finished article with interest. Thanks, that means alot. ================= Changes made, check it for me please. I know I missed a few things, couldn't find it all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-2057097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Changes made, check it for me please. I know I missed a few things, couldn't find it all. You need a header underneath the White Hand symbol saying "Origins". That's it. As soon as you've done that, you can submit it to the Librarium. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-2057126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 All done, feel free to post the link here when its in the Librarium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165158-ia-the-white-hand/page/5/#findComment-2058154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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