Custodian Athiair Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 am i right in thinking that the Word Bearers were the first to fall to chaos i have only read Legoin, Fulgim, Mechcanicum and Horus Rising so please no spoilers (thank you) i was just wondering the only reason i say that was becuase Erebus stole the Anthamean and i am thinking (becuase Horus got stabed by the Anthamen) that Lorgar was told by the chaos gods to seriously injure Horus so that they could mess with his mind if this is true i hate the Word Bearers even more (i didn't like them that much before) but this would mean the heresy is their fault thanks Athiair <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyear Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Traitor Eyes: No your foolish corpse god is the real reason the Heresy started because he wouldn't allow us to worship him in the first place, which would have made perfect sense and given us a good sense of direction. Loyalist Eyes: Yup their the original traitor marines, then again, Lorgar wasn't the first to fall that role goes to Kor Phaeron (sp) who learned quickly about the other gods of the warp and after the Emperor told Lorgar to shut up with the preaching and get on with conquering the galaxy Kor turned Lorgar to Gods that would be pleased if he worshipped them. Thus began the dark road of the Word Bearers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1945498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Custodian Athiair Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 ok thanks nice and clear :P Athiair ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1945616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NemFX Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Depends on what you mean.. Technically the Night Lords fell first. The first chapter considered to officially fall was either the World Eaters or the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1946088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyear Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 IMO the Night Lords never fully turned to all-out Chaos worship, at least not to the point of the Word Bearers, even so, if they did, they sure didn't want to inflict this on the other legions, like the Word Bearers did. If you've got fluff to prove me wrong, I'd love to see it :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1946465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Depends on what you mean.. Technically the Night Lords fell first. The first chapter considered to officially fall was either the World Eaters or the Word Bearers. I'd love to see the fluff for this as well. The World Eaters were insane and did surgery to enhance the insanity. The Night Lords used an extreme form of PsOps and a "total War" concept. But, I've never heard that either of these two were the first to fall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1946492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 The World Eaters and Night Lords were NOT the original traitors. They were regarded as perfectly loyal but WAAAY too brutal, and got reprimanded for being too brutal. No contest the Word Bearers (Kor Phaeron specifically) were the original Chaos Marines. Typhus was a Chaos worshiper long before Mortarion and the Death Guard in general, and possibly before Horus. In fact the Night Lords STILL aren't Chaos Marines. They don't, as a Legion, worship Chaos at all. They're just evil as hell and have an understanding with the Chaos Gods that they work together to accomplish mutual goals. There are probably some Night Lords here and there who DO worship Chaos, but not most of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1946499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 That depends on your definition of "fell" One can argue that the Night Lords' road to damnation started in M29, when they (unknowingly) began to recruit criminals/murderers from a regressed Nostramo. Their first true action against the Emperor would be the actions of their Primarch during the Cheraut campaign, where the Night Haunter wounded Rogal Dorn, escaped from confinement and subsequently destroyed Nostramo. This was in 826.M29 Edit: references to source material can be found here Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1946915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Just by disobeying the EMP does not atomatically meen you are a chaos worshipper, just a traiter. If you look at it like that then Kor phaeron and Typus were the original chaos worshippers as they started before they were inducted into their legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1946962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 remember that Zso Sahaal mentions that they don't really worship chaos rather they use it as a tool to strike terror into the hearts of their foes. technically speaking the Word Bearers were the first to 'turn traitor' of all the Legions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1947001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 I don't accept the Night Lords being considered fallen because of thier recruitment of criminals. There was a time when ALL marines were created from criminals and hive gangs. Even the Imperial Fists recruited from the scum of Necromunda. Even during the crusades it was the Emperor that used the Night Lords as shock troops. I feel sorry for the NL as I feel they were the ones betrayed by the Emperor. I would have say that most if not all the legions had marines that were corrupt. Some just had more than others. I would still have to vote that it was the Word Bearers that first fell to the worship of chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1947965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Most undeniably it was the Word Bearers. I'm not sure how it's not just accepted as fact... Anyhow, yea, I think the Night Lords are sort of victims of The Emperor aiming their methods in one direction and not telling them how far in that direction was too far, and then he gets pissed at them. Not really their fault. I mean sure, common sense probably SHOULD have tempered them...but I don't think expecting common sense from the Night Haunter was strictly reasonable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1947984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 the night haunter didn't have 'common sense' simply because he saw things others did could not. this caused his way of thinking to change based on what he knew would happen and since others didn't know about that they thought he was unstable and irrational. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1948064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Disciple Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Yeah the first to Legion that we know about to turn to Chaos were the Word Bearers. The main religeon on Colchis inlcuded the chaos gods though in what form hasnt been officially revealed yet, hopefully Anthony Reynolds will do it justice and not just have the Convent being outright chaos worshipers but I digress. Oh and yeah Night Haunter was difficult. His world view was such that the ends justify the means no matter how extream. Disciple Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1949035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Scythe Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 I have to agree fully with TEC. I mean it is (I thought) common knowledge that the first Legion to fall to Chaos was the Word Bearer. Sure other legions had rogue elements or members who did some naughty things but none of that was them turning to Chaos. As said the Night Lords were without a doubt brutal. But the Emperor loved it. In private he gave such tasks to the Haunter and then in public disciplined him and shunned him. This would of course turn the Night Lords from the Emperor but to think they were followers of Chaos is a stretch. The World Eaters are also hardly a choice. The surgery and implants was against the Emperors ideas however there was no Chaos influence happened until Horus brought Angron into the fold. Yes again violent and brutal but still loyal. The Death Guard was brought in by Horus, however Typhon was the first to fall from this Legion and he was the one who forced the Death Guard to become pawns of Nurgle. There might be a case with the Emperors Children but the Laer were for sure involved with Chaos. The sword was a way of helping Fulgrim and the legion along but again it was Horus who helped change them. Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion were simply turned by Horus after because of the little love they had for the Emperor or other loyal Primarchs and the Thousand Sons were forced by Horus because of the message he issued to Russ and their circumstances. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1949108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soyer_ Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 It was the Word Bearer's who turned first, after Big E told off Lorgar for all his worship ideas. Without them the full scale of the heresy would probaly have never taken place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1949209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordSion Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 the night lords were the first to throw off the shackles of imperial oppression and denounced the emperor 'as a weak hypocrite' (index astartes volume 2: bringers of darkness) and the fact that this took place before the istvaan V massacre occured makes them the first to openly rebel against the emperor (as well as making their inclusion in the 'loyalist' task force odd). As for the first to fall to chaos, ordinarily id have said word bearers, but there is a line in the night lords IA which talks about pacts and oaths being made and the 'culling of defenceless populations' increasing as a result. As has also been pointed out, the night lords never fully 'fell' to chaos, however, they may well have been amongst the first to use the dark powers for their own ends. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1949270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 the night lords were the first to throw off the shackles of imperial oppression and denounced the emperor 'as a weak hypocrite' (index astartes volume 2: bringers of darkness) and the fact that this took place before the istvaan V massacre occured makes them the first to openly rebel against the emperor (as well as making their inclusion in the 'loyalist' task force odd). As for the first to fall to chaos, ordinarily id have said word bearers, but there is a line in the night lords IA which talks about pacts and oaths being made and the 'culling of defenceless populations' increasing as a result. As has also been pointed out, the night lords never fully 'fell' to chaos, however, they may well have been amongst the first to use the dark powers for their own ends. but all of this happened after Lorgar's sanctioning and grieving. so the WB still 'fell' first Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1949383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordSion Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 yeah, the word bearers IA says that they were the first to be fully corrupted, however, it also says stuff about horus being the first primarch to be tainted (which makes no sense if the word bearers were fully corrupted first) and that the sons of horus were the first to openly rebel at the istvaan massacre (though the night lords IA states that they rebeled before the istvaan massacre) it all comes down to how you define 'fell'. the night lords were the first to openly rebel, but the Word bearers were the first to be fully corrupted by chaos So... in the context of Custodian Althiair's question 'who were the first to fall to chaos?' the answer is word bearers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1949642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Rebellion did not mean the Night Lords were Traitors. Not playing along with the Imperium is not the same thing as going against the Imperium. Plus, later the Night Lords went back to fighting for The Emperor again until the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1949991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fausto2071 Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 i guess the first to rebel were the nightlords, but the ones who actually worship the DG's were the word bearers who started talking to Horus, blah blah Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1950219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordSion Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 if rebellion doesnt mean you are a traitor then what does it mean? and no they didnt go back to fighting for the emperor again. The only reason they werent forcibly disbanded is because istvaan happened. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1950846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 then why were they a part of the 'loyalist' forces on Istvaan V? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1951071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyear Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 In my opinion, the Word Bearers went to Chaos worship before anybody else did. Night Lords were used as a Terror tactic, a.k.a. whole systems giving up their weapons as soon as even the mention of these guys was heard. And with ample reason I might add. Anyway, they were bad guys, as were the World Eaters. But neither of them turned to Chaos worship, as far as I can tell. Also for them being present at Istvaan, could the Imperium really afford to have one of their Legions sitting on the bench, even if the Night Lords had been po'ed at the Emp who's to say they wouldn't help the Imperium out destroying one of the biggest threats it had ever faced? Then again, that's my view on the matter and I could be wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1951155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parias Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I think it would be interesting to know when exactly did Kor Phaeron or Erebus started to worship Chaos. As far as I recall, Kor Phaeron, Lorgar's second in command and best friend 'whispered' to him of Chaos gods who wanted and needed worship etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165313-who-fell-first/#findComment-1951930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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