Who fell first?

[Tyear]

As far as I can recall, the original Planet Lorgar landed on was an Super Religious world, Praying to. Yup you guessed it, the Four Chaos Gods.

 

Now, Lorgar kicked all that out (probably didn't know what it was) and inserted his own branch of religion, which everyone took for granted. Now Kor Phaeron was a former priest for the other (chaos) religion and as he saw Lorgar fall from his faith he was quick to supplant it with his own.

 

Again this is what I can recall from memory.. could be wrong.

[Razhbad]

Colchis was uber religeous and long ago (before even Lorgar came there) it did worship chaos. Your best source information is Tales of Heresy (for the fall of the Word Bearers).

 

Secondly may i add that you probably should've read the books in order and False Gods will reveal more to you.

 

As for the Night Lords yes they did go rebel first, but they didn't fall to chaos, even in the 41st millenium they are the least aligned to the dark gods. It is the Word Bearers that fall to chaos first.

[Brother Nihm]

As for the Night Lords yes they did go rebel first, but they didn't fall to chaos, even in the 41st millenium they are the least aligned to the dark gods. It is the Word Bearers that fall to chaos first.

That's my belief as well.

 

 

As for why they were at Istvaan we don't really know for certain, all we know is that from the time of Nostramo's destruction and until the Istvaan V incident, the Night Lords were rebelling against the Imperium.

 

Here's the bits from IA: Night Lords that places them at Istvaan:

In the wake of his terrible act. Night Haunter became susceptible to the whispered temptations of Chaos. By this time, he was dangerously unhinged, leaving a trail of devastated worlds across the galaxy. Few civilised worlds were totally without blemish, and the pretexts on which Night Haunter launched full-scale invasions became less and less credible, Imperial reconnaissance craft followed in the wake of the Night Lords' fleet, reporting back to the Emperor's throne room across unimaginable stretches of time and space.

 

No longer did Night Haunter crusade in the name of the Emperor, who he now denounced as a weak hypocrite without the courage to admit that his own doctrines were just as extreme. Now the Primarch fought in the name of death and fear, knowing full well how the horrific arsenal at his disposal could aid him in his malign work. Night Haunter changed physically during this time, his lips receding completely, his muscular frame hunching over, and his gnarled hands stretching into grasping talons.

 

Appalled by his son's grotesque acts, the Emperor was forced by repeated protests to call Night Haunter to account, demanding his presence for a full inquiry into his Legions' methods. But as the edict was issued, and the slow but powerful arm of Imperial law stretched out to Night Haunter, the greatest betrayal the Imperium had ever seen came to terrible fruition. Horus, first among the Emperor's chosen, betrayed him by converting several of the Space Marine Legions to the worship of Chaos. The true extent of his treachery became evident to the Emperor at Istvaan V, and the quest to bring the Night Lords to justice was abandoned as the Imperium tore itself apart in all-out war.

[Aurelius Rex]

From my reading of the IA: Word Bearers (from my research into the Alternate Heresy Word Bearer IA article) Colchis and the Covenant was not dedicated to Chaos. However, Kor Phaeron did seem to be a bad'un, who was all too eager to corrupt Lorgar when he had his crisis of faith.

[Bearer of the Word]

Lorgar's spiritual advisor Kor Phaeron was technically the first to fall to Chaos that we know of. He whispered dark secrets to Lorgar and eventually snared the Primarch with talks of gods that demanded and loved being worshipped.

 

With this, the Word Bearers soon fell under the influence of Chaos and began to plague the other Legions with talk of the gods.

 

So...yes. Word Bearers fell first.

[Marshal Rohr]

But in Sions of the Storm, Lorgar mentions the beliefs of Clochis.

[Bearer of the Word]

True. But I stick by my assumption since I'm stubborn.

[Darkapostle222]

Okay...The way I understand it is that the Word Bearers were the first Legion to worship the Chaos Gods, but the Sons of Horus were the first Legion to turn traitor..

 

Coming from a Word Bearer, it is the Emperor's fault...Lorgar was just trying to give praise to the emperor the only way he knew how, and the Emperor tells him he's wrong and punishes him. Lorgar became really depressed and Kor Phaeron told Lorgar of dieties that demanded worship. Well Lorgar was more than happy to join Chaos. Then later, Erebus turned Horus to the true gods, and then the Heresy began.

 

Yay...in the new Heresy books it says

that the Covenant of Colchis worship Chaos

 

[Brother Nihm]

but the Sons of Horus were the first Legion to turn traitor..

Could you provide a fluff reference for this please.

[Corpse.]

If the definition of important figures being "corrupted" within the legion in particular, have the thousand sons any mentioning having already embraced chaos powers to try and "warn" the emperor only to be hunted down by the space wolves? I only read sparse info on all of that, but just curious where it stands in this topic as I've heard no mention of it.

[Fausto2071]

hmm...I don't think the thousand sons embraced chaos, instead, hoped to manipulate it for the Imperium's use

[Corpse.]

That still counts as corruption to an extent, like radical inquisitors facing judgement on borderline charges. Right?

[Hrvat]

but the Sons of Horus were the first Legion to turn traitor..

Could you provide a fluff reference for this please.

 

 

The Word Bearers were the first Legion to be fully corrupted by Chaos. While it is true that Horus was the first of the Primarchs to be tainted, and his Sons of Horus were the first Legion to openly rebel, in truth it was the Word Bearers who were the first to fully embrace Chaos as an entire Legion.

 

But there is a problem with the IA information and the info we are getting from the HH novels.

 

In the old background (pre Artbooks and HH novels) the primarch were found centuires or even millenia before HH.

 

In 826.M29 we had a fight between Dorn and Cruze

In 125.M30 we had Horus becoming Warmaster giving him nearly 9 centuries to corrupt his brethren.

Also with this timescale the Great Crusade was a more "real" rather then this 200 year rush which was first introduced in 2nd edition only to be changed into these thousand or so years and now it has been returned to 200 years which I think is a shame.

Also in the old background the HH lasted from 007.M31-014.M31 while the new one lasts from 012.M31-014.M31.

 

Much of the info presented in the IA is no longer compatibile with this new turn of events presented to us in artbooks and HH novels though novels are returning to some information (legion strength) presented in IA that was changed in the artbooks.

 

As it currently stands everything is mish-mash and we can't be certain what background still stands correct and which has be made obsolite by GW.

 

 

So in short in the IA era it was possible for Horus to fall first, Word Bearers to be the first legion to fall completely, Sons of Horus be the first to rebel etc...

With HH novels that is out of the window.

 

 

Cheers

[LordSion]

The Word Bearers were the first Legion to be fully corrupted by Chaos. While it is true that Horus was the first of the Primarchs to be tainted, and his Sons of Horus were the first Legion to openly rebel, in truth it was the Word Bearers who were the first to fully embrace Chaos as an entire Legion.

 

the thing about that is that Lorgar was the first primarch to fall to be 'enlightened' not horus, so that calls that bit into question.

 

And looking at it logically,

 

829.m29 Curze kicks the crap out of dorn, blows up nostramo and then goes on the run from the imperium. Denouncing the emperor as hypocrite in the process.

 

012.m31 the horus heresy unfolds and horus and his legion openly rebel against the emperor.

 

 

 

i may be mistaken here, but im fairly certain that m.29 comes before m.31

[Hrvat]

Well you are mixing dates from two backgrounds. In he new background that places HH in 012.M31 there was no crusade before 800.M30.

[LordSion]

Knew id put the wrong number in ;) (m29 still comes before 007.m31 though)

 

but as you said, the older fluff doesnt really match the fluff coming out of the Horus Heresy novels. However, for this question that doesnt really matter as much. Other than a short story, the word bearers have not really had that much mentioned about their background etc, and the Night lords have had even less (if anything.)

 

The point im trying to make is that until, there is a Night Lord/ Word Bearer hh novel, i reckon the old fluff still counts.

 

 

 

If we go purely based on the Horus Heresy novels, then the Word Bearers still fall first.

Because doesnt Erebus go to the Luuna Wolves at the request of his Primarch

Not too sure about that though, cause its been a while since i read them. And according to the new books, the Night Lords... exist.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Word Bearers are corrupted first, Lorgar sends Erebus to weaken and corrupt the Warmaster using sorcery, Lorgar also wrote the Lectitio Divinitatus, causing Imperials to believe the Emperor is a God. So in essence Lorgar found both major religions in 40K.

 

The old dates are out, but the fluff remains until it is retconned by the books.

[Aurelius Rex]

Where does it say that Lorgar wrote the Lectitio Divinitatus? From my reading of the earlier HH books it seemed to spring up independently. Is it from the more recent HH books?

 

Similarly, where does it say that Colchis worshipped Chaos? If that has been slipped in by the HH books that is a stupidly huge retcon for no good reason from the IA article. ;)

[Brother Nihm]

Where does it say that Lorgar wrote the Lectitio Divinitatus? From my reading of the earlier HH books it seemed to spring up independently. Is it from the more recent HH books?

Tales of Heresy, page 204. A WB Short-story. Lorgar mentions having written it. :confused:

[The Emperor's Champion]

Makes sense tho. Outshines everything else the Word Bearers ever accomplished too. It's just so downright annoying.....

[Marshal Rohr]

Its not a stupid retcon, its good, the writers of the IA's are out of date and they weren't considering something like the HH novels when they were written. The IA's gave us a general idea of the opinions on the HH from the 41st Millennium, the HH gives us the true ground's eye view on what really happened.

[Razhbad]

Also the idea of the IA's is they are reports made in the 41st Millenium when most accuarate information about the Heresy is long gone and it is mainly rumour and legend.

 

But this happens all the time in the history of hobby, new fluff comes out and massively contradicts old fluff.

[dynamicspartan]

Everyone who says it depends on how you look at it is right. The Night Lords began recruiting from criminals and gangers which lead to them turning to chaos and were "technically" first. But as the Horus Hececy goes it was the Word Bearers. Either it was Kor Phearon or Erebus. I think it was Erebus though because hes the one who came up with the plot of corrupting Horus.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

uhhh...i believe most of the early legions were recruited from criminals and such. i seem to remember the luna wolves having a been recruited this way, and i think a few others as well.

 

WLK

[malika666]

Originally all Space Marines were recruited from criminals, psychopaths and so on. Only in the later editions did they truly become the "knights in shiny armour".