Playing against 'Nids with a mobile army...

[Gornall]

Playing my first match against Nids on Saturday. The player is a pretty established one, but he's just started playing Nids the past 2 weeks. I'm pretty new to the game and I'm running my regular 1500 pt list:

 

HQ

Captain on Bike with Hellfire Rounds, Digital Weapons, and Relic Blade

 

Troop

Bike Squad (8) + MM Attack Bike with PF, Flamer, and Meltagun

Tactical Squad (10) with PF, Flamer, ML, and Rhino

Tactical Squad (10) with Flamer, ML, and Razorback

 

Fast Attack

Assault Squad (9) with PF and Flamer

Landspeeder Typhoon

 

Elite

Dreadnought with MM and Heavy Flamer and Drop Pod

 

Heavy

Predator with Autocannon and Lascannon sides

 

I don't know what list he's running, but last week he went with 2 carnifexes, 2 hive tyrants, 2-3 zoeys, and a bunch of little bugs. Only one unit of genestealers though. He wasn't happy with how it played against his opponent and said he was going to tweak it, so I'm expecting more genestealers and probably a broodlord. I haven't fought Nids before, so anything particularly nasty I should be watching for?

 

I was thinking that I should use the Predator to try and snipe the MCs/Zoeys while focusing the Typhoon and Dreadnought on the genestealers. I need to stay 18" away from the board edge to avoid genestealers outflanking, correct? Or at least keep my Tactical marines in their transports? What's the best plan for my drop pod dreadnought? Drop in and try and heavy flame/MM a group of bugs? I figure the Assault Squad will be used to clear out any gaunts/rippers or tie down squads after they get rapid-fired by the tacticals. I'm hoping that the bikes can dance outside of charge range and pepper bugs with TL bolter fire or maybe turboboost down a flank to cause problems in the backline. Generally I play this army very mobile, just picking off any of my opponents units that stray too far from the safety of the bulk of their army. However, I figure this will be next to impossible to do against a Nid player.

 

Any help would be appreciated. I don't want to change the list as I'm trying to stick to one list for all comers, so any tactical advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Captain Lucas Raziel]

generally players get scared of the huge tyranid creatures. aim for the smaller creatures, the giants take forever to reach, while the small things could overwhelm you easily. try and pick off synapase creatures in a hit and run sort of attack. tyranids really suck without synapase. i should know, i used to play them.

[Marlow]

I was thinking that I should use the Predator to try and snipe the MCs/Zoeys while focusing the Typhoon and Dreadnought on the genestealers. I need to stay 18" away from the board edge to avoid genestealers outflanking, correct? Or at least keep my Tactical marines in their transports? What's the best

 

Any help would be appreciated. I don't want to change the list as I'm trying to stick to one list for all comers, so any tactical advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

The problem with staying 18" away from both board edges is it can lead to you being rather squished and easy target for all the Blast weapons nids have. Genestealers can be tough to deal with, however check his list if they do not have Flesh Hooks you can hide in cover as they will be reduced to I 1 on the charge so you will be be able to get attacks in.

 

Zoanthropes have an AP 3 Blast, so you propably want to try and take them out first with your heavy weapons. You need to concentrate fire onto one unit of little bugs as much as possible to try and remove the whole unit in a single turn. Bugs rely on cover saves (mostly from other Bugs) so anything you can do to denigh them cover is good. Fex's are often weak in melee due to their low number of attacks so assaulting them with a PF can work well.

[Brother Swift]

look for anything with synapse and kill them.

 

then kill little bugs

 

if they have genestealers dedicate a unit to taking those suckers out

[Gornall]

With 2-3 Zoeys, a group of Warriors, 2 Tyrants, and a Broodlord, is eliminating Synapse really a viable strategy? I figure I'll throw the Predator at the Zoeys simply because that's the only AP2 weaponry I have in the army while everything else focuses on taking out the little bugs. I'm hoping he doesn't outflank with genestealers (he didn't last week), so that gives me a chance to kamikaze Dreadnought and/or focus fire the hell out of them. That and it would allow me to safely use the sides of the board to flank with my mobile units. If I can get an opening, I'll try to use my Assault/Bike Marines to get a multi charge off against a big bug and a group of small bugs like gaunts/rippers (fist on the big bug) and force as many fearless saves as possible by pounding the little bugs.

[Marlow]

With 2-3 Zoeys, a group of Warriors, 2 Tyrants, and a Broodlord, is eliminating Synapse really a viable strategy?

Tyrants & Broodlord are all HQ so he will nto be able to have all three. If he has 5-6 Synapse Units then Synaspse elimination is propably not an option. If he has equiped Tyrants & Zoanthrops with Psycic Scream for the leadership penalties then Synapse Wipeout is an option as he will only have 2-3 units with it.

 

If the Genestealer are outflanking you can try and lure him onto one side of the board. Move your fast units like bikes to the edge of the left flank (but outside Stealer Charge Range), then when he brings the stealers in on that side everything rushes arond to the right flank leaving the 'Stealers nothing to do but run and you can mow them down with guns.

[Kadaeux]

Also remember that they don't have the "Shoot the Big Ones First" rule anymore.

 

I've even heard the claim that a Horde of Gaunts more than five inches deep and wide counts as Area terrain and you can't target the unit on the other side... Which was when I promptly used the three borrowed Whirlwinds on the Horde and said "What Horde of Gaunts?"

[rockdeity]

If his fexes or tyrants are the shooty type, I find it pays to stay in rhinos/RBs/LRs until those things are dead. Nids have a really hard time with armor especially land raiders, if monsters don't assault them, but can tear the hell out of some infantry. I disagree about going for the big ones first. My usual strategy is to concentrate on one monster at a time to bring his firepower down (bring lascannons, some monsters have 2+ save) or genestealers when possible (these days the tactic is to outflank with them so they always assault the turn the come out pretty much. Worry about the gaunts last. I can normally beat those things off with tactical marines even. TH termies in a land raider is a great way to bring the fight to the bigger bugs. Crusader is perfect as it will also take lots of stuff down with it and draw fire. Ignore the zoes unless you get a good chance to kill them quickly. They will have 2+ armor save, and you want to save your las/plas for the monsters until they're dead. The zoes all 3 give one KP, they don't score, and have good saves, so I normally ignore them when possible. If you can take out a monster per turn, or so, by concentrating on them, you will do really well.

 

Don't bring bikes or assault marines unless you give them a fist and plant to tie up dakka fexes (they might be the stompy type though, and then slaughter you), they will get dakka'd or gaunted to death (everything shooty gives you an armor save but it's all twin linked with rr wounds practically, so you will be taking 10-20 saves per shot, wrap everything in armor (rhinos are good and let you do drive by's from them). The dread is also going to get slaughtered. Monsters 2d6 pen it and genestealers will rend it, and it can only do a max of 3 wounds on the charge and 2 after that. You *might* be able to tie some gaunts up (if he even brings any).

[Gornall]

His big bugs all were the shooting variety last week, so yeah, I'll keep my Tacticals in the Razorback/Rhino as long as I can. I intend to stick with my current list (I'm trying to use it for all comers) even though I agree that the assault marines and bikes are at a disadvantage. They do have fists, so if I can get an opening, I'll try and take out the big shooting bugs with them. If I get really lucky, he'll leave me a chance to get off a multiple charge against some squishier bugs and a big one, allowing me to force lots of armor saves on both groups. The dreadnought is probably going to kamikaze roast any genestealers he can find, or be used to guard one of the flanks. MM shots against Zoes and Carnis/Tyrants will also help. A lot of this is going to depend on how many genestealers he outflanks, if any. If he doesn't bring very many, that'll allow me to use more of the board where my mobility can pick him off easier. The one thing I have going for me is that I do have a lot of flamer and blast templates, so I should be able to thin out the horde.

 

Outflanking charge range on genestealers is 18", right? And if he uses their scout move, he can charge up to 24" on the first turn, correct?

[Olesh]

If he does the scout move, he has to deploy the genestealers with the rest of his army. If he outflanks the genestealers, not only does he keep them in reserve but he has to declare each outflanking unit. (For example, "I have 3 7-man squads of genestealers that are all outflanking).

 

Outflanking maximum assault range is 18" from either table edge. He has a 2/3 chance of coming in on the table edge he wants (1/3 on the wrong table edge, 1/3 on the right, 1/3 player's choice), but unless you make the effort to stay more than 18" away from the edges you risk being assaulted.

 

Bikes are wonderful troops against bugs. You can get an attack bike with a multimelta which will break the AP and overwhelm the T6 of the monstrous creatures, and supplement it with plasma/meltaguns or simply regular twin-linked bolter fire from the rest of the bike squad. Throw in a captain on a bike with a relic blade for more CC assault goodness.

 

Don't assume that because you keep your marines in a transport, that your transport will be able to survive. Unless you have some way of distracting or drawing fire away, the carnifexes can prevent your transports from moving with venom cannons and break them outright with barbed stranglers. Warriors with deathspitters can penetrate AV11 in shooting and then charge the marines who are dumped out. If genestealers surround a transport in the assault, they can wreck the transport and kill the squad inside by surrounding the vehicle with models so the transported squad has no room to disembark. Smaller bugs have problems with armor, and land raiders are difficult for even hive tyrants to crack (but carnifexes will eat them up - S9 + 2d). You can protect your transports by fielding additional armor or simply a larger quantity of transports to ensure that some of them make it through the battle long enough to deliver their squads.

 

Assault marines should stay the heck away from full-strength genestealer squads. Shooty tyranid warriors are fair game, as are regular gaunts, and any other situation where you are attacking at an advantage.

 

Don't let genestealers charge your dreadnought - they get to attack at their WS and have enough attacks to expect multiple rends. Even a basic squad of 6 will probably rend twice (attacking 18 times, hitting 12, getting two 6s); a larger squad and/or one with feeder tendrils is even more likely to break the dreadnought before it gets any attacks off. Ironclads are less vulnerable and are preferable for this reason. Similarly, keep your basic dreadnought away from a carnifex unless you're reasonably certain you can kill it before it gets its attacks off, because if it hits it's only got a 1/36 chance of failing to glance and a 11/12 chance of getting a penetrating hit. Ironclads are less vulnerable (no stunning them, redundancy in the dreadnought CCW) but still not ideal. Hive tyrants are in many ways worse targets, with better attacks and a higher initiative (although less certain to penetrate armor, will still do so against AV12 on average).

[Gornall]

Thanks for all the replies! Feel free to keep the advice coming! I think I can give him a run for his money, especially if I can limit the damage his genestealers do. I'd definately feel better at 2000 points as I would have a Landraider and Assault Termies to handle him. I can make this work though.

 

What should I be on the lookout for from his Broodlord?

[Kadaeux]

Thanks for all the replies! Feel free to keep the advice coming! I think I can give him a run for his money, especially if I can limit the damage his genestealers do. I'd definately feel better at 2000 points as I would have a Landraider and Assault Termies to handle him. I can make this work though.

 

What should I be on the lookout for from his Broodlord?

 

Pain. Lots and lots of Pain.

[Olesh]

In short? It's an uber-genestealer with power weapons. It will take any IC you can throw at it in hand to hand, and it's got a retinue so you can't rely on overwhelming it with numbers unless you kill the retinue off first.

 

But it's not THAT scary. Without its retinue it's like a hive tyrant with a worse save, and it doesn't have fleet so it (and it's retinue) are slower than normal genestealers. No 18" charge for them.

[Gornall]

Does it deep strike or outflank or anything interesting?

[Serif]

It infiltrates... I like to bait sometimes... leave a spot the can look specifically pretty for his BroodLord to infiltrate into. Nids can throw a lot of shots, or a lot of attacks, so without knowing his list, I'm not sure what specific advice to give

 

Some straight up general advice. Quantity over quality... assault cannons, heavy bolters, and templates. My #1 killer of the rampaging carnifex is rapid firing bolters. A little thing I love to do as Tyranids is to give +S to my termagaunts. It surprises marine players when these little bugs shoot take s5 shots that reroll to wound.

 

Watch out for a devil flyrant, it is my favorite unit when I play my nids. 12 s5 reroll miss, reroll wound shots... sweetness.

 

The BIGGEST psychological thing playing against nids and seeing the numbers they can put down is target priority. Know what can reach you when and eliminate whole targets at once. Putting 3-4 wounds on a carnifex won't stop it from delivering another s8 pinning pie plate, which, with the new blast rules, are insanely more effective.

[Kadaeux]

In short? It's an uber-genestealer with power weapons. It will take any IC you can throw at it in hand to hand, and it's got a retinue so you can't rely on overwhelming it with numbers unless you kill the retinue off first.

 

But it's not THAT scary. Without its retinue it's like a hive tyrant with a worse save, and it doesn't have fleet so it (and it's retinue) are slower than normal genestealers. No 18" charge for them.

 

 

Not that Scary?

 

What the capability to kill a Warhound Titan in ONE round of combat isn't scary?

 

I know they can because I DID it. (As you might expect those dice hold pride of place in my "kill-big-censored" pile.

[Olesh]

In short? It's an uber-genestealer with power weapons. It will take any IC you can throw at it in hand to hand, and it's got a retinue so you can't rely on overwhelming it with numbers unless you kill the retinue off first.

 

But it's not THAT scary. Without its retinue it's like a hive tyrant with a worse save, and it doesn't have fleet so it (and it's retinue) are slower than normal genestealers. No 18" charge for them.

 

 

Not that Scary?

 

What the capability to kill a Warhound Titan in ONE round of combat isn't scary?

 

I know they can because I DID it. (As you might expect those dice hold pride of place in my "kill-big-censored" pile.

 

A squad of scout snipers can kill a hive tyrant with tyrant guard in one round of shooting. That doesn't mean it's going to happen with any frequency or that you can even rely on it.

[Kadaeux]

In short? It's an uber-genestealer with power weapons. It will take any IC you can throw at it in hand to hand, and it's got a retinue so you can't rely on overwhelming it with numbers unless you kill the retinue off first.

 

But it's not THAT scary. Without its retinue it's like a hive tyrant with a worse save, and it doesn't have fleet so it (and it's retinue) are slower than normal genestealers. No 18" charge for them.

 

 

Not that Scary?

 

What the capability to kill a Warhound Titan in ONE round of combat isn't scary?

 

I know they can because I DID it. (As you might expect those dice hold pride of place in my "kill-big-censored" pile.

 

A squad of scout snipers can kill a hive tyrant with tyrant guard in one round of shooting. That doesn't mean it's going to happen with any frequency or that you can even rely on it.

 

A squad of Scout snipers aren't a single model that can take a Squad of deadly beasties with them.

[Olesh]

A squad of Scout snipers aren't a single model that can take a Squad of deadly beasties with them.

 

First, saying the broodlord is scary because of his retinue is absurd. You can take genestealers without the broodlord; either the broodlord is threatening enough on his own or it's the genestealers that are threatening and the broodlord is incidental.

 

Let's math this out, real quick. Warhound scout titan has 3 structure points and AV12 in the rear (void shields don't come into play). I'm assuming that you're referring to the scout titan. It's got a weapon skill, so the genestealers are hitting 3+ and rerolling (assuming you have feeder tendrils) failed to hits.

 

Let's assume we're dealing with a full squad of fully pimped out genestealers; toxin sacs and scything talons and feeder tendrils. That's 48 S5 attacks on the charge, of which 42 are going to hit. Of those 42 hits, an average of 7 rends will occur, which mean you get two misses, two glances, two penetrating hits, and a 1/3 chance of any of the above.

 

So, with two glances and two penetrating hits, I can already see that the titan isn't going down unless it's already damaged or you get a chain reaction. There's a 1/18 chance for a given penetrating hit to cause two structure points, and a 1/108 chance for three. On average each pen has slightly better than 1/3 chance to inflict a structure point, so two penetrating hits has about a 50% chance to average a single structure point.

 

Let's take a look at the broodlord's individual capability, now. He's higher S with toxin sacs (S6) and has one more attack, but otherwise the numbers are unchanged. He gets 5 attacks on the charge, of which 4.44 will hit. He's got about a 52% chance of getting at least one rend, and if he rends he's guaranteed at least a glancing hit. The same as above applies, though - about a 50% chance to get at least one rend, and only 2/3 chance that rend will penetrate, and then a 1/3 chance...

 

In short, you got lucky, that's the way things work sometimes, but this is not commonplace because the averages don't work out.

 

Also, the broodlord is not scary because he can't fleet.

[Gornall]

I managed to squeak out a close win in Spearhead Capture and Control. He definately had favorable terrain and I made several crucial mistakes. My opponent managed to get a Broodlord/Retinue charge against off against my Assault Marines (I had thought I was safely out of range and was wrong by about 1/8") and ate them and a Tactical Squad before I was able to get them shot up. My Drop Pod Dreadnought scattered 12 inches and also got itself munched by Genestealers. I knocked 3 wounds off one of the Carinfexes the first turn, so I fired way too much firepower at him Turn 2 trying (unsuccessfully) to get him down. Because of bad rolls I didn't get him down until Turn 3. In hindsight, I shoulda just focused on the Genestealers and other troops. I also clustered my bikes too close a few times trying to avoid charges which caused them to eat a few extra blast template wounds.

 

By the end of Turn 4, I had cleaned off the 'Stealers and Broodlord that had came after my objective, allowing me to control it with my Rhino and the Combat Squad that had survived. He had no units anywhere within range of my objective, so I was looking a draw in the worst case. However, I had taken a beating and was going to be hard pressed to pull a win. I had lost the other Combat Squad to shooting and depleted squad of Genestealers (same group that had taken out the Dreadnought) after they had taken out most of a Gaunt Squad near his objective. The bikes had turbo-boosted around and were threatening his objective, but would eat a TON of Dakka, dropping their numbers pretty bad. They finished off the depleted gaunts squad and were in his deployment zone, trailed by a Razorback. Had it ended at turn 5 it would have been a draw. However, it went to turn 6, so I was able to tank shock the gaunts on his objective and cluster them up for the Typhoon and Combat Squad MLs while contesting it. The Captain, Sergeant, and Regular Marine (who failed his Dangerous Terrain) test charged the survivors, crippling that squad. On his turn his Warriors shot up the Razorback on his objective and he brought his Carnifex and Tyrant back to the fight. However, he was only able to get them into contact with the Sergeant, killing him, but leaving my Captain alive to contest the objective. Luckily, the only troops he had left were 3 genestealers way off in BFE where they couldn't get back in time and 1 Termagaunt fighting my Captain, so even if it did go to Turn 7 (it didn't), I would probably have kept him from scoring anyway.

 

I made several costly mistakes at estimating ranges whch hurt me, but I was happy with how it played out. Next time I won't leave Genestealer charges to chance AT ALL and will focus more fire on his little bugs. Had I been out of range of that one charge it would have been a completely different game, as his Stealers would have had to been out in the open and I could have used my Assault Squad to work on his Warriors and Gaunts. It also didn't help when my Dreadought drifted away from the squishy gaunts to within range of a bunch of Genestealers. However, I was happy that I was still able to recover and pull it out at the end.

[PotMs]

when i play against nids, i shoot at hormagaunts first usually, that 12" charge plus fleet is a right pain to tie up squads early, and if the squad is big enough it can pull down mairnes easy enough.

 

as for stealers and broodlord, i avoid him most the game, if i feel it needs it ill rapid fire a squad at them to get the retinue thinned out before charging. a dread usually ties them up for a while unless they get lucky.

 

ive had a defiler fight against a broodlord + ret for 4 turns before.

anyway, dont fear carni's... ive seen people not shoot bolters at them thinking its pointless, ive taken down a carni in assault with 0 special weapons or anything in the squad. i rapid fired and took a couple of wounds, the following turn it charged and i killed it that turn.

 

remember the broodlord doesnt have fleet, so if he and his ret run they cant charge

[antique_nova]

this tactic has ALWAYS worked for me.

shoot stealers with guns and flamers asap.

melta or las or even krak zornthorpes, however heavy bolters and assault cannons work better.

go closecombat with the midgets after shooting them lightly

melta or las or even krak the big bugs

send your hardest units against their hardest units. e.g. carni and tyrant with pf, never power sword as they suck lol.

hope it helps

thanks

antique_nova