Guilliman a better Warmaster?

[Captain Idaho]

I thought I would spark a sensible debate after reading the quote below from another thread by my esteemed brother, TEC. The quote is as follows:

 

Guilliman became Lord Commander Militant Of The Imperium Of Mankind.....technically making him more powerful than Horus was for a while there....of course then he voluntarily gave up that position and went back to being a Primarch after he had finished securing and reorganizing the Imperium. I'd say that's a BIT beyond the administrative duties of just making the Codex....

 

Now I already knew that Guilliman became the Lord Commander Militant of the Imperium (forever abbreviated to LCM), a title quoted in Codex Ultramarines as making Guilliman the only man to command the entirity of the Armed Forces of the Imperium.

 

We also know that Guilliman did not set himself up as despot and did indeed work with other individuals and organisations for the "greater good" of the Imperium (excuse the Tau related pun). We know that Guilliman was a High Lord of Terra and held considerable power, and like TEC has said, he was more powerful than Horus for a time.

 

Does that mean he, with the benefit of hindsight of course, would have made a better Warmaster if chosen by the Emperor and potentially the Heresy would not have happened?

 

That is a big question. On the one hand, he proved that he was more up to the task without corruption and manipulation and built a powerful organisation which has lasted for 10,000 years (let's not debate whether the Imperium is in stagnation because of Guilliman etc, that is for another topic. This is pure Warmaster related only please.)

 

• He obviously was able to maneuver the other Primarchs as we know they all accepted the changes at the least (acceptance but not embraced in some cases - Space Wolves spring to mind here!), but I have some reservations.
  
• I'm a big Ultramarines fan from long before there were any band wagons in 40K, back when Blood Angels were EVERYWHERE. But I must say that I am not sure whether Guilliman would have made a better Warmaster, because of the following:
  
• The "loyal" Primarchs we know were weakened in power after the Heresy. Other Imperial institutions were less likely to heed their opinions after the Heresy. Would their influences be different if Guilliman was in charge? Would they accept him as Warmaster pre-Heresy? Dorn, Khan and Corax would certainly (Corax hated Horus from the off). I would imagine Ferrus Manus would, though that is specualtion based on his character from the HH novel Fulgrim (he was surprisingly humble, which I liked about him). Sanguinius was noble and humble and likely to accept Guilliman as Warmaster. But what of the others?
  
• The "troublesome" Primarchs had already been taken out of the equation. Most, Alpharius, Peturobo, Nighthaunter, Mortarion and Angron in particular only really had a working relationship with some Primarchs, or one and that was Horus. Some Primarchs detested Guilliman. All would be difficult for him to manuever in any favourable capacity.
  
• Would Horus be jealous as the first found son? He has influences over other Primarchs, notably Nighthaunter, Mortarion and Lorgar (or was the latter the influence? ;) )
  
• Lorgar would still have fallen. He would still hate Guilliman and still poison the other Legions. He would likely use Horus' jealousy of Guilliman and his relationship as the first Primarch with the other Primarchs meant he still could be the focal point for rebellion...
  

 

Summary

 

So taking these thoughts into consideraton, as well as other thoughts I am too tired to put up just now, I would say that Guilliman would have been a better Warmaster except where it really mattered; leadership of the Primarchs. Too many were embittered, stubborn or just downright hostile to accept anyone other than Horus as Warmaster. Primarchs held too much power pre-Heresy for Guilliman to have status over that they could accept.

 

Guilliman as Warmaster would still have lead to Heresy, as would any other Primarch save perhaps one (which I will save until last). Lorgar would still fall to Chaos in every scenario we can invent save the Emperor not reproaching him, more so with Guilliman as Warmaster due to his jealousy. With Lorgar spreading corruption, the other Primarchs could still fall and Horus as the closest to many of them is still the logical choice as leader of any Heresy based rebellion.

 

In short, Guilliman as Warmaster would still, in my humble opinion, spark a rebellion and result in disaster.

 

Appendix

 

Sanguinius is my choice as the only Primarch that could have prevented Heresy as Warmaster. He is well respected by almost all Primarchs, with the more insular and moody Primarchs (Angron, Mortarion, Alpharius etc) likely being more willing to accept him as their Warmaster due to his virtues and flawless character.

 

Horus loved him and would probably accept him as his Warmaster over anyone else. Lorgar would have more diffculty corrupting Horus if his character isn't already weakned by stress (like as Warmaster) or jealousy (like if someone else was in charge). Without Horus on side, any rebellion would be fragmented and isolated as no-one else could bind the corruptable Primarchs.

 

Hope this is an interesting read for people. It is my opinion, though I have formed it using my knowledge of the character of the Primarchs and the events surrounding the Heresy and title of Warmaster. Feel free to make comments, disagree by all means though please be sensible, I don't want any of "Guilliman sucked because he was arrogant but I have no evidence" rubbish.

 

Thanks for making it this far :jaw:

[Marshal Rohr]

Horus was on the right track until the Word Bearers poisoned him against his father. If Erebus had failed then there would be no Heresy.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I don't think Guilliman woudl have been the best choice. Judging by his actions from when he was in charge, he wasn't the sort of person who is willing to acknowledge his mistakes, or accept anyone disagreeing with him as a valid opinion. Firing on Dorn is a case in point.

 

Since all the Primarchs (with the possible exception of Sanguinius) have a flaw of some sort, it's really only circumstance that decides whether the Warmaster follows Horus' path.

 

and did indeed work with other individuals and organisations for the "greater good" of the Imperium (excuse the Tau related pun).

 

In an completely unrelated note, can someone explain to the Tau that's it's for the Greater Good for them to be exterminated, since there are far more Imperials than Tau? :D

[Captain Idaho]

Let's not forget that Dorn was fired upon by the Imperial Navy, not Guilliman. But I think we can agree, there will be tension if Guilliman was in charge as Warmaster, as if any Primarch was in charge.

 

And like I said, Sanguinius is such a hard story.

[Legatus]

I don't think Guilliman woudl have been the best choice. Judging by his actions from when he was in charge, he wasn't the sort of person who is willing to acknowledge his mistakes, or accept anyone disagreeing with him as a valid opinion. Firing on Dorn is a case in point.

Aside from it not being the Ultramarines who fired at the Imperial Fists, might I enquire what sort of "mistakes" there may have been Guilliman would not accept? He did include the tactics of other Primarchs in the Codex Astartes...

[The Emperor's Champion]

Horus was ready to impose his every will as law even before the Word Bearers did anything to him (such are the hazards of being the most ridiculously charismatic being ever).

Sanguinius might've been favored by Horus to be Warmaster because he was more level headed, but I think he was TOO diplomatic to be Warmaster.

 

Guilliman I think is sort of the middle ground between the two. He knew when to be diplomatic and when to be the law. I think he was enough of a hardass to make sure things that needed to get done WOULD get done, but diplomatic enough to not start new problems where new problems were not needed.

[_Caesar_]

I think that if Guilliman were made Warmaster there still would have been some sort of Heresy but I think that fewer Legions would have been involved and that it would have been put down quickly.

 

That being said, I think that the Emperor knew that Horus would betray him and wanted it to happen. Like in Mechanicum

where it talks about the Emperor acting throughout time, setting things in motion for some eventual result far in the future, I think the HH was another such event.

 

[Marshal Rohr]

I think he might have expected Horus to come back if that were true, and thats why he didnt obliterate him at the start of the fight. Could you imagine being Chaos having invested all you power in this one being only to have him forsake you for the Emperor, your arch nemesis. Holy Crap...

[_Caesar_]

Yeah... that would have sucked. :lol:

 

I'm still thinking things are going according to plan. I think the Emperor went to fight Horus knowing that Horus would mortally wound him (either because Horus was his match or because he allowed himself to be wounded). I'm thinking Arthur (the Emperor) being taken to Avalon (the Golden Throne) after being mortally wounded by Mordred (Horus) and prophesied to return when his people need him most (Time of Ending).

 

Why would the Emperor bother with all this when, if he could see the future, he might have been able to stop the Heresy in the first place? Perhaps he could see the future but couldn't change all of it. Or perhaps he wanted the Horus Heresy to happen to bring about a greater salvation in the future. Think about it, before the Emperor launched the Great Crusade he was an obscurity in the pages of history. He was a hero that appeared throughout history taking many different names and faces but during the conquest of Terra and the Great Crusade was he actually known by humanity at large, and even then he was attempting to impose his will on a largely uncooperative galaxy. But following the Heresy, where he sacrificed himself to slay humanity's greatest enemy, he was acknowledged and revered by the whole of humanity. Ten thousand years and countless wars and horrors later, humanity is desperate for a savior and the one that they know best is the Emperor. Were he to come back to life the outpouring of faith and loyalty given to him would be astronomical as trillions of humans, desperate for salvation, finally have their greatest hero back (perhaps complete with his knights, ie Primarchs). At the very least, conquering the galaxy for humanity and establishing a lasting Imperium would be easy at this point as practically 100% of humanity would be behind him. At best, perhaps the level of devotion to the Emperor upon his return would be so great as to empower his spiritual form to, once and for all, slay the Chaos gods, freeing humanity from its greatest enemy.

 

I'm not saying its a perfect theory by any means. There are still plenty of questions that would need to be answered, but I wouldn't put it past the Emperor to be this savvy. ;)

[Beef]

They should have Made Russ Primarch, He could have kept the more bloodthirsty Primarch's omn their place such as Angron and he was feircly loyal to the EMP.

 

Russ would have accepted even Gullie as Primarch as he was so loyal to the EMP

[Hrvat]

As others have said Guilliman would have made a poor Warmaster because he couldn't make other Primarchs follow his instructions. As far as I got it Guilliman wasn't really liked by most of his peers, he was to patronising.

 

Placing Guilliman as warmaster would have been like putting Perturabo or Mortarion to the most. Though I believe Perturabo should have been given the task of fortifying the Palace. Dorn was very good at this but the Perturabo was the best.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Since when was Guilliman as diplomatic as Horus was? Remember, Guilliman was the reason Alpharius doesn't like him, ever since he called the Alpha Legion newcomers that could never hope to match the glories of the Ultramarines, calling the Alpha Legions greatest victories "a waste of the Emperors bolt shells". Guilliman was not the sort of person I'd want in direct control. Administrative, or advisory, hell yes, but not direct control.

[Scott-S6]

Were he to come back to life the outpouring of faith and loyalty given to him would be astronomical as trillions of humans, desperate for salvation, finally have their greatest hero back (perhaps complete with his knights, ie Primarchs).

 

Sufficient to create a new, positive, warp entity?

[Damael]

I seem to remember reading in the Horus Heresy series somewhere that Guilliman wasn't very well respected by several of the other Primarchs. I also seem to remember reading in the same books that Guilliman thought he was as good if not a better candidate for Warmaster than Horus. I'll try and find out where I read this but it could take a while... It was only mentioned very briefly and there's few books to trawl through.

[Marshal Rohr]

Sure some of the Primarchs didn't like him, but thats true for all of them, some didn't like others. I think that Fulgrim and Mortarion accepted Horus becoming Warmaster so easily because they didn't really care, and since they considered themselves close to Horus before the fall they knew he would take care of them. Angron and Russ did their own things, Angron was little more than the human equivalent of a sledgehammer covered in nails while Russ remained independent from the others because their could only be one Alpha Male in a pack.

 

I'm sure Guilliman felt slighted, but he would accept it as did the Lion. Both were extremely capable Primarch's with honors and victories that outshone their brothers, it could have been either of them, but the Emperor picked Horus because of his ability to control the Primarchs to a degree. He could manipulate those he could not persuade and he could charm those he need not manipulate. He was diplomatic in the extreme and stern enough not to pander to a whiny Primarch.

 

Perturabo was furious of course, he should bow to no man save the Emperor who doesn't appreciate him enough, always sticking him on backwater duties, grumble, grumble. In the end Perturabo was manipulated by Horus while he was loyal and to turn him against the Emperor. I doubt Corax, Ferrus, Khan, Magnus, Vulkan, and Night Haunter cared. Alpharius/Omegon wouldn't have been bothered, but probably appreciated the fact it annoyed Guilliman. Their dual nature would keep them occupied enough for a lifetime, Im sure they have creepy Primarch twin speak.

 

Lorgar would be ecstatic, because he was close enough to Horus to see his weaknesses yet far enough to be willing to corrupt him to his own purpose. Lorgar is by far the most perfidious and evil of the Primarchs. None of this would have happened if he had been killed, sorry, but I hate him with a passion.

 

Of course that brings me to the final two: Dorn and Sanguinius. Dorn would secretly upset at being put under his brother, because he has a prideful streak, but he would accept it out of duty and not complain because he felt Horus was his closest brother, and he should be happy for him. I don't think it was reciprocated by Horus, but thats surly how Dorn felt, and why it stung him so deeply, he had been played for a fool. Sanguinius... is just so tragic. Horus and Sanguinius were the closest, Horus counted him as his best friend and Sanguinius was the only Primarch I think Horus respected. Sure the others were his brothers, but he and Sanguinius were best friends.

 

That fight between them was greater than the duel because it was so personal. It was Obi-Wan vs. Anakin, two best friends forced on opposing sides due to machinations out of their control. When Horus strikes down Sanguinius it signifies he has crossed the point of no return, he was no longer Horus but Chaos Incarnate.

 

I really can't do the description justice, but I hope you understand the tragedy of it.

[Sons of Horus]

no way anyone could have done it better than Horus.

[Boomsly]

well horus said that sanguinus would better suited to the job iirc and that he should have got the war master position

[Marshal Rohr]

Yes, you are correct Horus thought Sanguinius could have been a better choice.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

That fight between them was greater than the duel because it was so personal. It was Obi-Wan vs. Anakin, two best friends forced on opposing sides due to machinations out of their control. When Horus strikes down Sanguinius it signifies he has crossed the point of no return, he was no longer Horus but Chaos Incarnate.

 

Hmm . . . a young Alec Guinness as Sanguinius? I think that might actually work.

 

Why would the Emperor bother with all this when, if he could see the future, he might have been able to stop the Heresy in the first place? Perhaps he could see the future but couldn't change all of it.

 

The Emperor hasn't always been able to see the future. In the full, long-hand account of the Heresy that was last published back in 2nd ed (I think) and has only been published in the shortened versions since, it makes mention of the Emperor's foresight. When the traitors arrive at Terra, we are told that normally the Emperor can foresee the future, but "the future was hidden from him this day". Then, when Horus lowers his shields, "the Emperor saw what must be done", in other words, his foresight returns.

[Sons of Horus]

what i meant was no one could have pulled off the Heresy better than Horus. Sanguinius might have been a better Warmaster but not a better Arch-Traitor -_-

[Boomsly]

ah, i see, well it's ironic that the most loved son should fall and that is why it was horus and not Guilliman,you cant get much better of a plot line of betray than that.

[Captain Idaho]

I think the Chaos Gods used all their powers to shield the future(s) from the Emperor, just like Horus used his powers in the final moments of the Siege of the Terra to prevent the Emperor from knowing the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were close to reinforcing Terra (that was an article in White Dwarf, back when there were interesting articles in it).

 

I seem to remember reading in the Horus Heresy series somewhere that Guilliman wasn't very well respected by several of the other Primarchs.

 

I think it is just speculation (and wishful thinking) that Guilliman was not well liked. There is only information saying that Lorgar and Alpharius were at odds with him, we have no evidence that the others disliked Guilliman. The Horus Heresy novels themselves support that Horus and Guilliman were close. The first novel, Horus rising, tells us how the Primarchs reacted to the appointment to Warmaster.

 

Honestly, re-read it guys, I think so many people missed the important details within it. It is the bit when the Mournival meet the Imperial Fists and Dorn. It tells us that some Primarchs were cynical and said "typical" while others such as Peturobo and Angron raged about it. It stated how Khan and Sanuinius accepted it as the right decision. Most importantly, it showed how Dorn and Guilliman embraced the decision and assisted their brother with their best efforts and that Horus valued their council.

 

Many people point to the latter novels, where Horus was delirious with despair and nurgle poison and thought his Brothers were out to get him. He mentions Guilliman at that point, and many people take that as their evidence for Horus' opinion towards his Brother, compeltely ignoring his opinion in the previous book when everything was normal. Please people (not directed at anyone in particular or even in this thread), realise that Horus was only in his right mind when talking about Guilliman in the first novel.

 

If you really think Horus was in his right mind when he delivered his valediction on his death bde to that Rembrancer (forget her name), then how do you explain his opinion in Horus Rising being so different when he has even had any contact with Guilliman since then?

[Steve Irwin]

Many people point to the latter novels, where Horus was delirious with despair and nurgle poison and thought his Brothers were out to get him. He mentions Guilliman at that point, and many people take that as their evidence for Horus' opinion towards his Brother, compeltely ignoring his opinion in the previous book when everything was normal. Please people (not directed at anyone in particular or even in this thread), realise that Horus was only in his right mind when talking about Guilliman in the first novel.

 

Yeah, unless in the previous book, Horus was lying in the face of all of it. Ok, so he had just been promoted to Warmaster, and some Primarchs were a little hot under the collar, and others were giving council, such as Guilliman and Dorn (probably out of spite...). Horus would obviously have accepted this advice; he’s not going to throw it back in their faces in a fit of rage!!

Then, on Davin (or wherever it was), Horus became infected with Nurgle Juice, and became delirious. This is when his mental guard is down; people accidentally say all kinds of stuff when there are drunk, and Horus was utterly ‘Primarch’ wasted on Nurgle Juice. That’s when it all comes out about his brothers.

I seriously think that’s what the situation is, Horus was lying back in the first couple of books, and then it all came spilling out when he became infected.

As for whether which Primarch would have been better, I believe Horus did a brilliant job (until he turned), Horus was a brilliant diplomat, and a better taciturn. With the Emperor's armies being led by Horus, the Great Crusade was pretty much over by the time the Horus Heresy arrived...

I don’t think any other Primarch could have done a better job.

Oh, and none of the Primarchs like Guilliman by the way, apart from Fulgrim, although, that there is a love/hate relationship... ;)

Steve

[Dark Disciple]

Should you wish to see the Crusade under Gullie then just look at the imperium today. Guiliman was a military man, born and raised. He didnt choose to negociate with Dorn rather he held the power of his Legion over him. Also his handling of Alpharius shows his arrogance, rather than praising his brother for his planning he derrides him.

Guilliman in my mind from the IA articles and the HH novels is the general you want to advise you. Not the guy you want planning schools and doing taxes. hmm RGU, the Robute Guilliman Univerity? ;) (bad joke I know but if you know the uni I mean I'll probably get the joke)

Guilliman was the best a quicly taking planets and installing a solid Imperial government. Those planets taken by him were second in loyalty only to those taken by the Word Bearers (pre-rebuke).

 

Horus was the most reliable choice, the other had too many squables. Fulgrim rubbed most people up the wrong way as he was obsessed with perfection.

Maguns was a sorceror. Dorn was the Emperors praetorian and far too stubborn. The Lion well theres something not quite right with him. Lorgar was religeous and not who you want forging a secular empire and Angron was well Angron.

Sanguinus was probably the one with the right mix as he was very diplomatic but he had some temper ;)

Konrad would have been an interesting choice though ;) Other than that Blackadder for Warmaster!

 

Phew well thats my rant over :o

I know I'm such a Word Bearer sometimes :P

 

Disciple

[Legatus]

Oh, and none of the Primarchs like Guilliman by the way

I would prefer if we would only consider official sources.

 

He didnt choose to negociate with Dorn rather he held the power of his Legion over him.

There was nothing to negotiate. All the imperial forces were restructured, guard and navy became independent institutions and Astartes Legions were split into smaller Chapters. Dorn was not to get special treatment.

 

Also his handling of Alpharius shows his arrogance, rather than praising his brother for his planning he derrides him.

We know for a fact that Guilliman had considered the skills and knowledge of other primarchs in his work, so we can safely conclude that whatever Guilliman had to say about Alpharius's approach was valid criticism. There appearently were issues with his approach, perhaps not the most efficient use of time and material, but GW had not explained what the issue was. And since we also know that Alpharius has betrayed the imperium pretty much just so he could fight other loyalist Legions we can also conclude that it was Alpharius who was making a fuss out of the discussion about tactics and doctrines and had it turn sour.

 

Guilliman in my mind from the IA articles and the HH novels is the general you want to advise you. Not the guy you want planning schools and doing taxes.

There may be a few systems in the imperium whose population and government beg to differ.