Guilliman a better Warmaster?

[Captain Idaho]

@ Steve Iriwin:

 

Seriously dude, where is you evidence that the other Primarchs disliked Guilliman? Show me a quote. I have supplied a evidence that Dorn and Horus got on with Guilliman, but there is not a quote I have found that any Primarch aside from Alpharius or Lorgar disliked Guilliman.

 

Sorry man, I just don't see where your opinion is coming from, except wishful thinking?

 

Yeah, unless in the previous book, Horus was lying in the face of all of it. Ok, so he had just been promoted to Warmaster, and some Primarchs were a little hot under the collar, and others were giving council, such as Guilliman and Dorn (probably out of spite...). Horus would obviously have accepted this advice; he’s not going to throw it back in their faces in a fit of rage!!

 

Why would Horus lie?! He wasn't under scrutiny, he was explaining some of his Brother's opionions of his appointment. There was no need for him to trick Loken into thinking Guilliman and he were close and that he valued the opionion of his brothers. It doesn't make any sense.

 

And Horus was a changed man by the time of False Gods; he was in despair after what happened with the Disparex (sp?) and Erebus was poisoning his mind by then. Despite these influences, he was then poisoned unto death and infected by an agent of Nurgle (disease). In his delerium and despair, he thought people were out to get him. He was not himself, it is obvious. It's just like in Fulgrim, where the influences invovled there destorted Fulgrim's perception, changing from love to his brother Ferrus Manus to resentment and paranoia, except instead of being in a single book it is spread over 2.

[The Emperor's Champion]

It seems like most of the Primarchs got along just fine with Guilliman, I don't think he's really the type to make enemies with his brothers. Lorgar and Alpharius were the exceptions.

 

Lorgar wasted The Emperor's time and resources sitting around on every planet they conquered building unwanted shrines and talking people into believing The Emperor was a god. Being the dutiful and efficient type of person he was that would not fly with Guilliman.

Alpharius and Omegon similarly fought in a style which directly offended Guilliman's sense of courage and honor. He saw victory through mostly lies, ambush, and sabotage as cowardly, dishonorable and overall unworthy of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

There's no reason he wouldn't get along with the rest of them. The rest were pretty efficient and proud in their methods.

Any other things between Guilliman and his brothers would have been brief disagreements that friends and brothers tend to have all the time.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

He didnt choose to negociate with Dorn rather he held the power of his Legion over him.

There was nothing to negotiate. All the imperial forces were restructured, guard and navy became independent institutions and Astartes Legions were split into smaller Chapters. Dorn was not to get special treatment.

 

Whilst no-one should get special treatment, Dorn should have at least been granted an academic debate over the merits of the Codex. From what we know, it seems more a case of "Guilliman said "I am right", and it became so".

 

Then agains, maybe it's just the way GW tells the story. :o

[Legatus]

Whilst no-one should get special treatment, Dorn should have at least been granted an academic debate over the merits of the Codex.

I do think the high lords were all firmly behind the decision to spread the military power between a bigger number of people.

[Sons of Horus]

It seems like most of the Primarchs got along just fine with Guilliman, I don't think he's really the type to make enemies with his brothers. Lorgar and Alpharius were the exceptions.

 

Lorgar wasted The Emperor's time and resources sitting around on every planet they conquered building unwanted shrines and talking people into believing The Emperor was a god. Being the dutiful and efficient type of person he was that would not fly with Guilliman.

Alpharius and Omegon similarly fought in a style which directly offended Guilliman's sense of courage and honor. He saw victory through mostly lies, ambush, and sabotage as cowardly, dishonorable and overall unworthy of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

There's no reason he wouldn't get along with the rest of them. The rest were pretty efficient and proud in their methods.

Any other things between Guilliman and his brothers would have been brief disagreements that friends and brothers tend to have all the time.

 

guilliman got along with everyone except Lorgar and Alpharius but Horus and Sanguinius both got along with EVERYONE. :P

[The Emperor's Champion]

And I don't think it's a GOOD thing he got along with everyone. I think the Warmaster should be ready and willing to keep his generals in line rather than letting them go act like idiots. Generally Horus was in charge of everything but for some reason he let his brothers run amok.

In that way I think Guilliman was better ready to be Warmaster. He was happy to play the diplomacy game so long as stuff got done, but was ready to put his foot down when necessary.

[Legatus]

What horus was capable of, and perhaps Guilliman was not to that extent, was that he knew how to handle the other primarchs and how to deal with them so they were satisfied and acting according to how Horus wanted it. He made friends with a lot of the soon to be traitor primarchs by giving them gifts or simpathising with their situations and expressing that he uderstood them. When Guilliman criticized Horus for leaving a liberated world rashly and in a weak state, he pacified Guilliman by telling him that he was better at these sort of things. He paired up Primarchs that were rivals at a specific type of warfare so they would compete and show more effort. Horus was very good with people. THat also meant he knew how to get some fo the primarch on his side.

[Octavulg]

Guilliman's simply not cut out to be Warmaster due to one of his primary characteristics - arrogance. He's the educated Primarch who thinks he's better than you.

 

Horus admired and tolerated alternate ways of warfare - Guilliman thought they were inferior. Horus allowed each legion to evolve its own methods, and used them as those methods suggested. Guilliman thought that the other legions should use his method of warfare - witness the bit where he suggests the Alpha Legion should use the Codex, and the fact that everyone now does.

 

Frankly, he's a bit of a jerk (he presents people with his methods of doing things as a fait accompli). Considering how touchy the various Primarchs are, no one would have listened to him, and the Great Crusade would have quickly dissolved into the various legions doing whatever they felt was best. :)

[The Emperor's Champion]

This is how I figure it:

 

Horus was the better social diplomat. Always able to speak directly to a person's personality no matter what that personality was. The moral implications and logic behind a course of action secondary to manipulating the situation in order to achieve a desire end.

 

Guilliman was more of a logical diplomat. Sort of lay out how things should be and why, and thereby making it really hard to do anything but agree without looking like an idiot. Better at knowing how NOT to start unnecessary fights than he was able to pander to a person's ego the Horus way.

 

Sanguinius was seemingly the moral compass of the Primarchs. While Guilliman and Vulcan were both very moral and whatnot they were still proud and held themselves to high standards of courage and honor. Sanguinius would be the type to let that which does not matter slide. His own pride and honor secondary to his concern for the Imperium and its people.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Horus admired and tolerated alternate ways of warfare - Guilliman thought they were inferior.

No..... The only ones he didn't approve of were Alpharius' and Lorgar's. The rest were all incorporated INTO the Ultramarines style of warfare and subsequently the Codex Astartes too. He easily acknowledged the various masters of their styles. Hell, I don't doubt he acknowledged Alpharius and Lorgar as masters of stealth and preachyness but just didn't approve of those as abilities worthy of Primarchs.

 

 

Arrogance is not arrogance if you're genuinely better at whatever you think you're better at.

 

Like if Vulkan claimed he best understood the use of fire...that's not arrogance. Just facts.

Or Dorn claiming to be the master of siege warfare.

Or Horus claiming himself most charismatic.

Or Alpharius the sneakiest.

Or Fulgrim the best duelest.

Or Khan the best rider.

etc

[Octavulg]

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/arrogance

 

"overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors"

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arrogance

 

"offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride."

 

You can be arrogant and still actually be better than other people. (ref: Lion El'Jonson). In short, you're better than them and you're a jerk about it.

 

Guilliman, in the finest tradition of the source cultures for the Ultramarines, was a jerk to (almost) everyone who was not a product of that culture. :)

[Logain the Ranger]

These would probably be my top choices for Warmaster.

 

1. Sanguinius - He exemplified all of the good parts of the Emperor and the Primarchs.

2. Horus - He was well liked by all of the Primarchs. Sure some would be jealous, but it would be like that with anyone other than Sanguinius maybe.

3. Robute Guilliman - He had a great mind. He was fast at conquering planets. And he was able to set up lasting infrastructures. Though he was arrogant.

5. Lion el'Johnson - Sort of a wild card, I think was a natural leader (As shown in DoA), but he could be very stubborn and arrogant at times.

4. Leman Russ - Russ was fiercely loyal to the Emperor and had the third highest victory total in the crusade. Though he tended to be hot headed on issues of honor. He got along with everyone except for Magnus and the Lion.

 

Now I'm just going to round out the rest of the list.

 

6. Rogal Dorn

7. Ferrus Mannus

8. Fulgrim

9. Jaghatai Khan

10. Peturabo

11. Corax

12. Magnus the Red

13. Vulkan

14. Lorgar

15. Mortarion

16. Konrad Curze

17. Alpharius

18. Angron

[Hobo Willie]

Arrogance is not arrogance if you're genuinely better at whatever you think you're better at.

 

Uh, yes it is. There is no proof that the Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves were not as good as the Ultramarines at conventional warfare. It is stated many times that Guilliman was a logistical genius, while Horus was a tactical genius. That's why he was chosen. Plus, Horus was accepting of all his brothers. Guilliman was not. I think you're a little biased here (the Ultramarine signature/Avatar points to it anyway :)). The Emperor chose Horus because he felt Horus was the best for the job. And without what happened on Davin, he would have been best for the job, simple as that.

[The Emperor's Champion]

When is Guilliman ever a jerk about it aside from Lorgar and Alpharius (who I'll admit he probably held in such low esteem that he didn't bother playing nice with them)?

 

The implementation of the Codex Astartes was out of necessity and more of a: "Here guys, I've organized all of our tactics into this huge tome of war. The way we were working before ended up going very wrong, so we need to change it. We're gonna try this now." I'm sure he was proud of his Codex but I doubt he was a jerk about it.

[The Emperor's Champion]

These would probably be my top choices for Warmaster.

 

1. Sanguinius - He exemplified all of the good parts of the Emperor and the Primarchs.

2. Horus - He was well liked by all of the Primarchs. Sure some would be jealous, but it would be like that with anyone other than Sanguinius maybe.

3. Dorn - Dorn might of been a stubborn guy, but he had a great military mind and got along with most of the other Primarchs.

4. Robute Guilliman - He had a great mind. He was fast at conquering planets. And he was able to set up lasting infrastructures. Though he was arrogant.

5. Lion el'Johnson - Sort of a wild card, I think was a natural leader (As shown in DoA), but he could be very stubborn and arrogant at times.

 

Now I'm just going to round out the rest of the list.

 

6. Leman Russ

7. Ferrus Mannus

8. Fulgrim

9. Jaghatai Khan

10. Peturabo

11. Corax

12. Magnus the Red

13. Vulkan

14. Lorgar

15. Mortarion

16. Alpharius

17. Konrad Curze

18. Angron

 

I'd put Dorn after Russ. Dorn was simply too stubborn and prone to reckless endangerment of his forces due to being too proud and stubborn.

 

If Chaos wasn't all magic oriented I'd probably put Magnus REALLY high on the list. Dude was smarter than hell.

I'd also put Night Haunter ahead of Alpharius, and Lorgar after Alpharius. Night Haunter was brutal but REALLY effective. Alpharius took too much time planning every plan and a dozen backup plans. The Great Crusade would've moved at a snail's pace with him in charge (sort of the same issue The Emperor had with Lorgar, but with a valid reason).

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Whilst no-one should get special treatment, Dorn should have at least been granted an academic debate over the merits of the Codex.

 

I do think the high lords were all firmly behind the decision to spread the military power between a bigger number of people.

 

Dorn. Dorn should have had the chance to debate. Not the High Lords. It was possible to contact Dorn, as was shown when he was summoned back to Terra to be told that the Codex was being implemented, no questions asked. How can you participate in a debate if you are not there? Dorn was off doing his job, cleansing the galaxy (no implication intended that Guilliman was not doing his job) without being aware of what is unfolding back on Terra. He should not have come back to find an entrenched Guilliman set on his path of implementing his reforms without recourse to the opinions of his brother Primarchs.

[Tutteman]

Just a note on arrogance. Sure Gulli was arrogant, but that was due to the fact that he was used to being right. He was right so often that he got accustomed to this and therefore just took it as a given that he is right all the time rather than most of it. Then again this could also be called supreme self confidence...and yes I did choose those words on purpose because they are used to describe Horus at one point.

[Logain the Ranger]

I'd put Dorn after Russ. Dorn was simply too stubborn and prone to reckless endangerment of his forces due to being too proud and stubborn.

 

If Chaos wasn't all magic oriented I'd probably put Magnus REALLY high on the list. Dude was smarter than hell.

I'd also put Night Haunter ahead of Alpharius, and Lorgar after Alpharius. Night Haunter was brutal but REALLY effective. Alpharius took too much time planning every plan and a dozen backup plans. The Great Crusade would've moved at a snail's pace with him in charge (sort of the same issue The Emperor had with Lorgar, but with a valid reason).

 

The Iron Cage shows Dorn could be very reckless. (Not to mention backhanding Garro) I also agree with Magnus being much higher, but the only thing about Magnus is that he went against a direct order from the Emperor. Lorgar I might drop under Alpharius as he was slow with conquering planets and didn't follow the Emperor's path, but Lorgar was a really charismatic leader. Curze was a deviant from the start (Mainly due to the fact that he had visions), but I put him pretty low due to the fact of the people he surrounded himself with.

 

Looking on my list for sure Robutte should be ahead of Dorn.

[Marshal Rohr]

Dorn gave up his chance to debate. He shunned contact with the outside and was driven solely by rage and revenge. He was the Primarch most affected by the loss of the big E, so whenever Guilliman was coming up with plans and strategies to keep the Imperium safe and secure the Imperial Fists were doing human wave attacks against the Traitor Legions. Strategically, not their finest hour, but by God, they got their revenge.

 

Also, excellence allows you to share your opinion with others and feel like you have helped them. :huh:

[_Caesar_]

Were he to come back to life the outpouring of faith and loyalty given to him would be astronomical as trillions of humans, desperate for salvation, finally have their greatest hero back (perhaps complete with his knights, ie Primarchs).

 

Sufficient to create a new, positive, warp entity?

 

Perhaps, but that probably isn't even necessary. We know that the Emperor already has a presence in the warp and with his warp form he battles the Chaos gods in order to shield humanity. Maybe the outpouring simply empowers his warp presence to the point that it can annihilate the Chaos gods. In any case, such an outpouring of faith would have a serious impact on the warp and the entities within, one that wouldn't be good for the Chaos gods.

 

 

The Emperor hasn't always been able to see the future. In the full, long-hand account of the Heresy that was last published back in 2nd ed (I think) and has only been published in the shortened versions since, it makes mention of the Emperor's foresight. When the traitors arrive at Terra, we are told that normally the Emperor can foresee the future, but "the future was hidden from him this day". Then, when Horus lowers his shields, "the Emperor saw what must be done", in other words, his foresight returns.

 

At some point I've got to pick some 2nd ed. material. The more I hear about it the more I realize how rich in fluff it is.

 

In any case, I don't think the scenario you described discounts the foresight of a glorious return. Perhaps when his vision returned and he "saw what must be done" he knew that he would have to sacrifice himself in order for such an event to happen. Again, I know the theory isn't perfect, but so much in the 40k universe seems to point to such an end.

 

Anyway, I don't mean to buck the flow of the current discussion, so I'll leave it at that.

[Captain Idaho]

Guilliman isn't arrogant just for compiling the Codex Astartes. It even states in Codex Space Marines and other sources: The High Lords of Terra have never felt it neccessary to enforce the Codex Astartes. Indeed, it is doubtful whether it could.

 

Guilliman was a High Lord, and that means him as well. The only decree that Dorn resisted if you actually read Index Astartes/Codex Black Templars is the breaking up of the Legions.

 

The only fluff that shows Guilliman as arrogant was Index Astartes Alpha Legion, which as we know is flawed information from Inquisitor Kraven, a known Heretic. Suffice to say, it contradicts almost everything we know about the Alpha Legion and the information within makes little sense when it stands up to scrutiny, especially personality comparisons with other sources.

 

If you don't agree that it is propagnda from the Alpha Legion, just say and I will show you in a new topic (think we are due a new topic for it as I have been hankering to enlighten the masses about it. (seriously, as former History student this document is a golden example of falicy and propaganda. It should be used as an example for things to spot in class. Believe what is written in there and you may as well believe that the Earth is flat and the Sun falls out of the ski every evening)

[The Emperor's Champion]

2nd Edition is THE fluff. Everything revolves around the 2nd Edition fluff or builds on it, or restates it.

 

If an in universe source says "and then I saw Alpharius do ____" I take it to be utter nonsense.

I'll believe the omniscient narrator or novel "in character's mind" format info. It'd be sort of weird if that were lies.

[Brother-chaplain Astador]

I think its kind of laughable that Arrogance is the one reason you are saying he shouldn't have been warmaster :D

 

Horus was the equivalent of the firstborn, he was the favourite son, this is why he was made warmaster.

 

Many other primarchs may have been able to manipulate/passify the others if they were in position of warmaster, but we will never find out that will we.

 

What we did find out, is that Guilliman rebuilt the shattered remains of the war-torn impierum, and helped to restore order and glory to it for many thousands of years (even beyond his 'death') and gave power back to the high lords after dong so.

 

It still survives now, 10 thousand years after he first laid his tome down.

 

Horus was warmaster for how long before he turned?

 

For the record, rouboute guillimans 'way of fighting' was not simply HIS way of fighting.

 

It was an amalgamation of all of the methods of the primarchs and their warriors, not simply the ultramarine way.

 

The Codex Astartes writings about seiges and how to condut them, who's methods do you think mostly attributed to these?

 

Rogal Dorn.

 

Lets not think that The Codex was a book of Guillimans own thoughts and methods alone.

[Legatus]

Just a note on arrogance. Sure Gulli was arrogant, but that was due to the fact that he was used to being right. He was right so often that he got accustomed to this and therefore just took it as a given that he is right all the time rather than most of it.

If Guilliman was arrogant, and I am not convinced he is from reading the descriptions of him, then that was probably not because he "was used to being right" but more because he was raised in a society where hard work and personal achievements were held in very high esteem. The Index Astartes describes the inhabitants of Ultramar as industrious, disciplined and intensely loyal to the Ultramarines. Having grown up in such a society, you could understand that he would not shy away from criticizing someone who did not seem to perform to his fullest potential, and that he would have a disregard for lackluster approaches. He even criticized Horus for leaving liberated worlds to quickly and leaving them in a state of disarray. He confronted what he perceived to be lacking, no matter whether it was the youngest of his brothers or the oldest.

 

Dorn. Dorn should have had the chance to debate. Not the High Lords.

I disagree. The heresy had shown what too much military power in the hands of a single man could cause. All imperial forces were spread out over different institutions, and the Marine Legions were some of the force's elements that had to be reduced in size. That decision was one which the leaders of the imperium were entiteled to make, and it was not up to the individual commanders of said forces to protest.

[Marshal Rohr]

Dorn. Dorn should have had the chance to debate. Not the High Lords.

...and it was not up to the individual commanders of said forces to protest.

 

He is still a Primarch and above the dictates of mortals. He was a High Lord, he just abdicated his council seat. However, see my previous posts for my opinion on specifically Dorn's ability to make policy.