Guilliman a better Warmaster?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I disagree. The heresy had shown what too much military power in the hands of a single man could cause. All imperial forces were spread out over different institutions, and the Marine Legions were some of the force's elements that had to be reduced in size. That decision was one which the leaders of the imperium were entiteled to make, and it was not up to the individual commanders of said forces to protest.

 

Gah! I'm not looking for Dorn to dictate anything. All I'm saying is that the Codex Astartes should have been subjected to proper outside scrutiny. If it worked, it would have withstood the scrutiny. If it didn't, it would have failed the scrutiny. It was never properly scrutinised, and the result is us lot debating over whether it should have been introduced.

 

If you don't agree that it is propagnda from the Alpha Legion, just say and I will show you in a new topic (think we are due a new topic for it as I have been hankering to enlighten the masses about it. (seriously, as former History student this document is a golden example of falicy and propaganda. It should be used as an example for things to spot in class. Believe what is written in there and you may as well believe that the Earth is flat and the Sun falls out of the ski every evening)

 

Limited resources, sir. Without modern scientific knowledge and access to scientific instruments, it is not at all unreasonable to believe the Earth is flat. After all, if it looks flat, and that's all the evidence you have, why wouldn't it be considered flat? ;)

Same with the Alpha Legion. GW has stated that all the fluff is supposedly propaganda, from one side or another. We too have limited resources in that sense, and so we have to try and distil the truth from inferior sources - objective sources are not available to us.

[Legatus]

Gah! I'm not looking for Dorn to dictate anything. All I'm saying is that the Codex Astartes should have been subjected to proper outside scrutiny. If it worked, it would have withstood the scrutiny. If it didn't, it would have failed the scrutiny. It was never properly scrutinised, and the result is us lot debating over whether it should have been introduced.

I get the impression that you assume the tactical doctrines and the chapter organisation are what was mandated by the high lords and what Dorn and Russ were against. But that is not the case. What was decreed, and what Dorn and Russ were disagreeing with, was that the Legions were to be divided into smaller Chapters. The organisation and tactical doctrines were never enforced, and never an issue.

[The Emperor's Champion]

what Dorn and Russ were disagreeing with, was that the Legions were to be divided into smaller Chapters. The organisation and tactical doctrines were never enforced, and never an issue.

Exactly.

[Captain Idaho]

Limited resources, sir. Without modern scientific knowledge and access to scientific instruments, it is not at all unreasonable to believe the Earth is flat. After all, if it looks flat, and that's all the evidence you have, why wouldn't it be considered flat? :)

Same with the Alpha Legion. GW has stated that all the fluff is supposedly propaganda, from one side or another. We too have limited resources in that sense, and so we have to try and distil the truth from inferior sources - objective sources are not available to us.

 

Oh I know what you mean, but I have in my mind an essay that will explain what I mean with regards to that infamous (or heroic if you don't like Ultras) article. It really is more dubious than any of the others, which so far in 40K have always slanted towards one side but never actually told untruths, yet the Alpha Legion IA really is false hood. Anyway, think we are delving a little far off topic (a topic I started no less oh the shame!).

 

On the subject to Dorn, I believe that he did get the honour of debate when he returned after fighting for revenge, which is probably when Guilliman and he had a row that resulted in their little spat. They made up when he decided to Iron Cage Peturobo and then embrace the Codex.

[Marshal Rohr]

what Dorn and Russ were disagreeing with, was that the Legions were to be divided into smaller Chapters. The organisation and tactical doctrines were never enforced, and never an issue.

Exactly.

 

To lend further evidence. Salamanders have alternate Company Organization as do the Angels of Death and Black Templars.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Oh I know what you mean, but I have in my mind an essay that will explain what I mean with regards to that infamous (or heroic if you don't like Ultras) article. It really is more dubious than any of the others, which so far in 40K have always slanted towards one side but never actually told untruths, yet the Alpha Legion IA really is false hood.

 

Or perhaps just to confuse us it's the truth, only it's so biased they know we'll never believe it. ;)

 

I get the impression that you assume the tactical doctrines and the chapter organisation are what was mandated by the high lords and what Dorn and Russ were against. But that is not the case. What was decreed, and what Dorn and Russ were disagreeing with, was that the Legions were to be divided into smaller Chapters. The organisation and tactical doctrines were never enforced, and never an issue.

 

You've got the wrong impression then. I would have liked Guilliman to have consulted his Brother Primarchs whilst writing the Codex, getting input as he went, rather than writing it, presenting it and touting it as the only way forward. Doing what he did turned the debate into an "either you're with me or you're my enemy" situation.

For a start, doing it my way would have eliminated a fair bit of criticism about the Codex, both in-game and amongst the fans. It would have that bit more legitimacy.

[Octavulg]

Idaho:

 

The Alpha Legion IA is presented as being from a source that may have been corrupted by the Alpha Legion.

 

This does not necessarily make it falsehood.

 

Furthermore, as I have told you repeatedly, there is no reason to expect that the entire IA derives from that one source. Indeed, some of the information in it logically cannot.

[Legatus]

You've got the wrong impression then. I would have liked Guilliman to have consulted his Brother Primarchs whilst writing the Codex, getting input as he went, rather than writing it, presenting it and touting it as the only way forward. Doing what he did turned the debate into an "either you're with me or you're my enemy" situation.

For a start, doing it my way would have eliminated a fair bit of criticism about the Codex, both in-game and amongst the fans. It would have that bit more legitimacy.

I am not sure the decision to spread military power was entirely Guillimans alone, as I said eaelier. I do believe that decision was accepted by the other high lords, or at least by the majority. Perhaps it may even have been one of the others who suggested it. What we are told is that the people in command decided to spread the military power. And appearently they did not ask the primarchs for permission to make such a decision. Remember who just led the worst rebellion ever against them.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yes, but as mortals, they ultimately have little say at that point. They have only been doing this for a short time following the fall and having Guilliman tell another Primarch to divide his force is different than a self-serving aristocratic useless glob of flesh tell one of the Emperor's finest to divide his legion.

[Legatus]

It allways gets put forward as having been Guillimans idea to divide the imperial forces, he came up with it, and he made everyone do it. But there was a council of the mightiest men in the imperium that was deciding how to proceed, and I find it unlikely that Guilliman decided that all by himself and then the others said nothing about it. He may have been who suggested it, being in charge to restructure the forces and all. And it was his task to see to it that it was complied. But it was a decree by the high council of terra. Imperial Forces were to be spread, and Marines were not excempt.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

And appearently they did not ask the primarchs for permission to make such a decision. Remember who just led the worst rebellion ever against them.

 

Remember who just saved them from said worst ever rebellion, and in some cases gave their lives in the process. You cannot judge the Primarchs as a single entity any more than you can judge the High Lords, or the Inquisition in such a way. A group of highly individualistic people will never be a proper group.

[Legatus]

You don't have to ask the primarchs how to rule the Imperium either.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Legatus Posted Today, 11:42 PM

You don't have to ask the primarchs how to rule the Imperium either.

 

No, you have to ask the Emperor, but he's not responding. ;)

[Legatus]

They had a workaround...

[Marshal Rohr]

It allways gets put forward as having been Guillimans idea to divide the imperial forces, he came up with it, and he made everyone do it. But there was a council of the mightiest men in the imperium that was deciding how to proceed, and I find it unlikely that Guilliman decided that all by himself and then the others said nothing about it. He may have been who suggested it, being in charge to restructure the forces and all. And it was his task to see to it that it was complied. But it was a decree by the high council of terra. Imperial Forces were to be spread, and Marines were not excempt.

 

Again, the High Lords held no sway over a Primarch's forces. Whenever Guilliman approached the other's he laid out the merits and drawbacks of the Codex, and had the Primarch's comment, like Corax wanting more firepower in his fleet and the compromise that followed. That situation leads me to believe Guilliman asked his brothers instead of ordered it. Whenever Russ, Vulkan, and Dorn would not relent about dividing their power, Guilliman made compromises, whenever Dorn still wouldn't relax his position (he likely saw it as another thing he loved being taken from him), Guilliman got frustrated and their fight ensued. After they calmed down it was all good, Guilliman explained that the chapters would still be loyal to the Primarch, but the separation allows for at most only a single chapter to be swayed if heresy ever strikes again. Russ just did his own thing and Guilliman most likely gave up trying to reason with him. That is just my theory based on the Primarch veneration of some second foundings.

 

I think Guilliman went to bat for his brothers in front of the High Lords as well, getting them what they wanted in the compromises. While people argue that a pre-heresy Guilliman may have been conceited and arrogant (which may have been the case) the Heresy changed him as it did all other Primarchs. It made him see the disadvantages of alienating his brother and more inclined to a diplomatic personality.

 

The High Lords asking anything of a Primarch is the like Lord of the Inquisition asking the Lord of the Assassins to do something, one cannot order the other because all are equal.

[Legatus]

The role of the High Lords was to rule the imperium on behalf of the emperor. I don't recall the Primarchs being involved in ruling the imperium. A primarch may claim a place among the high lords, and it cannot one high lord ask something of one other. But if the high lords collectively make a decision, then that decision is imperial decree and has to be obeyed.

[Marshal Rohr]

There was a supreme court case were the courts tried to make Andrew Jackson do something, Jackson refused and dared the court to 'make him', effectively. The High Lords tried to make Dorn and his fellows do something, and they said 'come and try it' at that point Guilliman would intercede. Of course the Terrible Angel may have been fired on on the High Lords orders and we don't know. Which would make for an interesting angle.

 

You also don;t recall any Primarch ruling the Imperium because most were too occupied with re-building their Legions, hunting traitors, or could care less. Most Primarchs didn't want their seat, as seen by them just forsaking them. Then they were resentful of the High Lords tying to make them do something. Im not saying they were justified, but that they had their own reasons.

[Brother Aristeo]

No, I don't think Guilliman would have been a better Warmaster for most of the reasons already stated. In fact I doubt the emperor ever even condidered him for the position. I think the Emperor's only choices were Sanguinius and Horus, and he chose Horus hoping it would stop him from turning against him.

 

What am I talking about? Okay, I'll explain. Of course, this is just my opinion, but I think the Emperor saw a vision of Horus betraying him and the Heresy to follow. So the Emperor had to figure out how to stop this, but he didn't want to kill his favourite son. So he decided to make Horus Warmaster, to show how much he loved and trusted Horus.

 

The Emperor knew Horus very well and how he ticked, and figured that if he chose Sanguinius (his top pick) for Warmaster, then Horus might get his feelings hurt and turn traitor. This isn't so ridiculous when you think about exactly what made Horus turn: He was shown a vision of the future and he wasn't in it (amongst the Loyal Primarchs) and he felt betrayed. So Horus turned traitor anyway.

 

Of course, the kicker is that now Horus is all powerful and stuff because he's the Warmaster. In entrusting Horus with all of this power hoping it will make him remain faithful, the Emperor has created a monster. If he would have chosen Sanguinius, at least Horus wouldn't have had the power to split the galaxy in two.

[Sons of Horus]

agreed that he only decided between sanguinius and Horus. but even if the emperor saw the future he should have known that it was inevitable already. since the future he saw was the actual future he should have known that no matter what course of action he took, it would still happen. such is the power of Tzeentch to control the strands of fate and destiny ^_^ the emperor had absolutely no control over whatever would happen next.

 

about GW fluff. if you notice it is almost always written from the perspective of LOYALISTS (especially the earlier editions). this means that most of it is actually incomplete or half true. the problem here is that anything they write IS canon and therefore unless they write something from the point of view of the traitors then we must consider this incomplete truth to be a whole truth.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

since the future he saw was the actual future he should have known that no matter what course of action he took, it would still happen. such is the power of Tzeentch to control the strands of fate and destiny :) the emperor had absolutely no control over whatever would happen next.

 

Actually, at this point the Chaos Gods are rather scared of the Emperor, hence why they engineered the Heresy.

[Legatus]

about GW fluff. if you notice it is almost always written from the perspective of LOYALISTS (especially the earlier editions). this means that most of it is actually incomplete or half true. the problem here is that anything they write IS canon and therefore unless they write something from the point of view of the traitors then we must consider this incomplete truth to be a whole truth.

In 2nd Edition a lot of fluff was written from a flat out omniscient point of view, explaining circumstances that no one in the imperium would know, other than perhaps the emperor. Things like th ewhereabout of Lion El Jonson. Or they were written at least with hindsight, explaining motivations and reasons for actions that could not have been known during the heresy. Often the fluff will intentionally leave things open for the sake of mystery though.

 

The background in other codices is not allways written from an imperial point of view either. I am not so sure that imperial scholars know how the World Eaters Legion got scattered because of a skirmish between the World Eaters and the Emperor's Children, where a World Eaters general by the name of Khârn flipped out.

 

Assumptions that the Emperor knew Horus would betray him is contradicted by official fluff. When Magnus tried to warn the Emperor about Horus, he was angry and could not believe that his most beloved son would betray him, and he sent the Wolves after Magnus instead.

[Captain Idaho]

@ Octavulg: That's why I intend to spark another discussion with a review of said article. It is largely falsehood and even says that the information within is from Inquisitor Kraven and therefore considered false. And my review will compare information from other sources that directly contradicts that article etc, so even without that line it is possible to see that it is false...

 

Only problem is I have to dig out the WD it is in for direct quotes. Anyone have an idea what UK issue it was in?

 

about GW fluff. if you notice it is almost always written from the perspective of LOYALISTS (especially the earlier editions). this means that most of it is actually incomplete or half true. the problem here is that anything they write IS canon and therefore unless they write something from the point of view of the traitors then we must consider this incomplete truth to be a whole truth.

 

Indeed it is sometimes writen like that, but not always. It is often written from an omnipresent narrator point of view. The Index Astartes articles were an exception, written from the perspective of a historian. In this case, the information we have is from a rogue, comprimised Inquisitor.

 

Normally even the Index Astartes were truthful with a slight biased, like the 2 versions of the Iron Cage incident. Neither directly contradicts eachother, but each dwells on aspects not spoken of in the other. The only exception to this is the fluff in IA Alpha Legion. It directly contradicts all other sources of info on the Alpha Legion.

 

***Disclaimer*** I include the BL libraries as cannon in my theories generally, on a case by case basis of course (some books are so old their fluff has evolved for example). The Heresy novels were written with full support of the studio and many designers were involved, so ignoring all other pieces of BL based fluffs we can take the Heresy books as cannon, as they have special support from the Studio designers and don't directly contradict immutable tennets from official cannon.

 

What am I talking about? Okay, I'll explain. Of course, this is just my opinion, but I think the Emperor saw a vision of Horus betraying him and the Heresy to follow. So the Emperor had to figure out how to stop this, but he didn't want to kill his favourite son. So he decided to make Horus Warmaster, to show how much he loved and trusted Horus.

 

Fine conspiracy theory but I don't know if I can swallow it. The Emperor has made such immense plans over the years I think a desparate gamble to save his son is a little out of character. Besides, his precognitive powers were blocked by the Chaos Gods, those dastardly dogs!

[Octavulg]

It is largely falsehood and even says that the information within is from Inquisitor Kraven and therefore considered false. And my review will compare information from other sources that directly contradicts that article etc, so even without that line it is possible to see that it is false...

 

It says the much of the information comes from him - not all. Furthermore, GW has been known to take the view that all fluff is untrustworthy, thus raising the question of whether or not the contradictory fluff is reliable.

[Brother Aristeo]

Assumptions that the Emperor knew Horus would betray him is contradicted by official fluff. When Magnus tried to warn the Emperor about Horus, he was angry and could not believe that his most beloved son would betray him, and he sent the Wolves after Magnus instead.

No, the Emperor became angry with Magnus because he forbade him from using sorcery, which Magnus used to warn the Emperor. Another part of my "conspiracy" theory is that the Emperor also foresaw Magnus turning into a traitorous sorcerer, so he outlawed the use of sorcery hoping to stop this from happening.

 

Fine conspiracy theory but I don't know if I can swallow it. The Emperor has made such immense plans over the years I think a desparate gamble to save his son is a little out of character. Besides, his precognitive powers were blocked by the Chaos Gods, those dastardly dogs!

Exactly! Chaos made it difficult for the Emperor to make full use of his visions. He started making bad decisions based on these incomplete visions and instead of preventing these things from happening, he helped make them come to pass.

 

And Captain Idaho, I'd love to hear what you have to say about the Alpha Legion. My conspiracy theory regarding Kravin is that Inquisitor Girreaux is actually in the Alpha Legion's pocket.

[Legatus]

Assumptions that the Emperor knew Horus would betray him is contradicted by official fluff. When Magnus tried to warn the Emperor about Horus, he was angry and could not believe that his most beloved son would betray him, and he sent the Wolves after Magnus instead.

No, the Emperor became angry with Magnus because he forbade him from using sorcery, which Magnus used to warn the Emperor. Another part of my "conspiracy" theory is that the Emperor also foresaw Magnus turning into a traitorous sorcerer, so he outlawed the use of sorcery hoping to stop this from happening.

 

"Although the message was said to be of great import, it inadvertently revealed the true extent of the practices of the Thousand Sons. The Emperor refused to believe that Horus, his favoured son, would betray him, and he rose in anger against Magnus's warning."

- Index Astartes Space Wolves

 

"Only the power of Magnus's sorcery had revealed the viper within. Surely the Emperor would at least see its value. Instead, the Emperor named Magnus's sorceries themselves as the viper. He judged Magnus's accusation of his brother Primarch heretical and his blatant deception evidence of the worst sort of oath breaking."

- Index Astartes Thousand Sons