Marshal Rohr Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Don't forget, that message also broke open the webway right under the Imperial Palace, causing chaos to pour in. Not Chaos like their physical manifestations like Bloodletters, but actual Chaos. Then manifestations came too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aristeo Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Legatus, I stand corrected. It's been a few years since I read those Index Astartes articles. How did that whole exchange go down in False Gods? Was it the same as in Index Astartes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 what neither of these sources say is another reason why the Emperor was angry with Magnus for his actions: the daemonic spell used by Magnus to breech the palace's defenses opened the warp gate under the golden throne beyond what the emperor could control...for the rest of the heresy the emperor, his custodes and the sisters of silence were fighting against daemonic forces in the lower dungeons of the palace. also, upon meeting magnus, the emperor warned him of the dangers of the warp. magnus agreed to this, but secretly ignored the warning as he already gazed into the warp and saw power. all from Collected Visions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 the future is always still the future. no matter which course of action the emperor took, the future would still happen. if the future was the heresy then even if the emperor didn't make Horus warmaster it would still happen somehow. besides, the Chaos gods were not afraid of the emperor. all their actions are based upon what raw emotion created them and so the heresy was a big mix of those. remember the emperor may be the most powerful human psyker ever but he's still only a human and not a god. he's not all-powerful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Actually that is a debate not meant for this forum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 ok sorry then Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Its the whole metaphysical aspect, because its actually for some a religious belief. Predestination and all that. None of it can be proven so it probably shouldn't be used as an argument. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 @Kieran: What you incorrectly assume about Magnus (as I've noticed in this thread and the Magnus one) is that he was a traitor. Magnus had The Emperor's best interests at heart and did NOT mean to break the wards of the Golden Throne with his warning spell. That was purely accidental, and for it he was punished. True the Thousand Sons continued to practice sorcery somewhat after the Council of Nikea, but always in pursuit of knowledge to help the Imperium. The Emperor IS indeed mostly to blame for the fall of the Thousand Sons. He ordered them to cease their sorcery but gave no reason as to why. As we all know THAT never works. No one will EVER stop doing what they love just because someone said so. They always need a valid and logical reason. It's the same exact problem as telling the Word Bearers to stop spreading religion. Just never gonna happen unless there's a clear reason. On a totally different note. I'll be absent from almost all of my current debates for about a week. I forgot my mouse at school and I'm at home for about 6 days, so it's going to be too much of a hassle for me to navigate all over the place replying to things. Good luck Legatus, Idaho, M2C. Debate away! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 I think we won? I don't know? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 @TEC i would believe that but i gave the last of my money to buy magic seeds, so i am out of gullibility. and as per Collected Visions, magnus was warned of the dangers of the warp by the emperor upon their first meeting...so he knew what he was getting into, but just didnt care. that to me blows the whole "it wasnt me, it was the one armed man" defense out of the water. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Magnus was the first official Renegade, loyal but does what ever the heck he wants. Curze was always a renegade but no one knew. No need to attack TEC for losing his mouse. Real Life Happens. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 i meant no attack bout the mouse, just the belief that magnus was tricked into everything...that i stopped believing... and i got to wonder what was his end goal with all that power the warp promised??? to bend his knee and be a servant? that seems unlikely for such a prideful being. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Magnus though he could master it. He couldn't, their were consequences. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Marshal2 Crusaders Posted Today, 08:07 AM Magnus though he could master it. He couldn't, their were consequences. Exactly. Magnus wasn't a proper traitor, cackling away over his plans for galactic domination. He was just downright arrogant, and he paid the price for it. He certainly became a proper traitor later, after the destruction of Prospero. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tevelyn Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 magnus betrayed the emperor by ignoring his warnings about sorcery. By definition he was the first traitor. Do not forget that tzeench works through deception and was likely manipulating magnus from his first studies into sorcery. With the possible exception of lorgar, magnus was definitely the first traitor, that he didn't realize it doesn't absolve him, it meerly puts him in a long line of tzeench's cultists, ignorantly working for their masters plan. Tev Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logain the Ranger Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 ....How has this gone from Gullliman to Magnus? <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Magnus might be a traitor by the Webster's definition, but not by the 40k definition. In 40k terminology he wasn't a traitor, but more of a renegade waiting to happen. He was just a loyalist doing stuff that would get him branded a renegade if anyone found out. When they DID find out he was forced to go traitor to keep from being wiped out. Traitor - An ex-Imperial force turned against the Imperium, whether the Imperium knows about it or not. Renegade - A force loyal to the Imperium that has done something to have the Imperium brand them as disloyal or dangerous or heretics, or tainted, etc. Loyalist - All of them Imperium's forces, both the ones that play by all the rules and also the ones doing things the Imperium would consider disloyal, dangerous, heretical etc, that the Imperium hasn't found out about. Well the Magnus discussion should probably move over to the Magnus thread since that makes sense..... I guess it's my fault for putting my points about Magnus in the same thread where I wanted to point out why I've half dropped off the face of the Eart...B&C. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1949985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Logain the Ranger Posted Today, 03:23 PM ....How has this gone from Gullliman to Magnus? :P I expect it's just an off-topic spin that will be linked back in by an imminent discussion as to how none of the events on Prospero would have happened if Guilliman was Warmaster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1950149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tevelyn Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Meh... there is a lot of loathing for Gulliman because he's written as a condecending character and the fluff is written from the ultramarines perspective*the codex fluff* so the ultramarines are the best and most honerable and have all kinds of crazy stuff attributed to them. When, during the heresy they were at best the second legion in accomplishments and more likely third after dorn at the time the imp fists were returned to terra. So some of us look at UMs as what happens when little brother who wants to be like big brother finally gets in charge... He wants to do it better than dad and big brother and winds up screwing everything up and pissing everyone off. And the people who love UMs see Gulliman as the best and brightest as he's written of in a lot of the fluff. He's the RIGHT guy, he knows his tactics, the ultramarines definitely don't blatantly rewrite history to make themselves look better. Saying that, I really hope most people who are fans of UMs are very tongue-in-cheek about it. Especially in the new SM codex there are some very obvious "rewriting history" bits of fluff to try and underline the trend. From that prospective being an UM fan could be a lot of fun. Maybe you'd disagree but UMs remind me very much of that guy on the internet who always has to one up the last guy. And I think they're VERY intentionally written that way. Tev Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1950285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Meh... there is a lot of loathing for Gulliman because he's written as a condecending character and the fluff is written from the ultramarines perspective*the codex fluff* so the ultramarines are the best and most honerable and have all kinds of crazy stuff attributed to them. When, during the heresy they were at best the second legion in accomplishments and more likely third after dorn at the time the imp fists were returned to terra. The ordering is different depending on the author. Dorn is only recently been cited as rivalling Horus' victories, but that may have been idle flattery on Horus' part. So some of us look at UMs as what happens when little brother who wants to be like big brother finally gets in charge... He wants to do it better than dad and big brother and winds up screwing everything up and pissing everyone off. Except, the Imperium actaully prospered after Guilliman took charge. I believe Cpt. Idaho pointed out multiple references to back this up, so no, in fact, Guilliman did succeed. He also one of the old guard when it comes to Primarchs, and not relatively new on the scene. He didn't piss anyone off, if you will notice, but instead through many compromises and discussion, made the reorganization of the Imperium go smoothly with all parties being OK with it, instead of doing it against their will. And the people who love UMs see Gulliman as the best and brightest as he's written of in a lot of the fluff. He's the RIGHT guy, he knows his tactics, the ultramarines definitely don't blatantly rewrite history to make themselves look better. A retcon, is a retcon, is a retcon. The Ultramarines don't rewrite history, writers do. New fluff is still fluff that is just as equal as old fluff. So all the new fluff about Ultramarine exploits may be poorly written, but at the core is a story of hard pressed Astartes against great odds still emerging triumphant. Tales of Heroism are always inflated, but the deeds did happen. Saying that, I really hope most people who are fans of UMs are very tongue-in-cheek about it. Especially in the new SM codex there are some very obvious "rewriting history" bits of fluff to try and underline the trend. From that prospective being an UM fan could be a lot of fun. Maybe you'd disagree but UMs remind me very much of that guy on the internet who always has to one up the last guy. And I think they're VERY intentionally written that way. Tev Yeah, I would disagree. Giving Ultramarines players a classification based on the poor writing habits of one author is bad form. It is intentionally written that way, because I don't think you can unintentionally write something. You are allowed to think whatever you want of Ultramarines and there players, but their is a set group of facts that are the real unarguable truth, and all of your hating and theories don't matter if they contradict that. Maybe, your post was meant sarcastically, or something, but I really couldn't tell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1950446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 He didn't piss anyone off, if you will notice, but instead through many compromises and discussion, made the reorganization of the Imperium go smoothly with all parties being OK with it, instead of doing it against their will. Russ? ;) Giving Ultramarines players a classification based on the poor writing habits of one author is bad form. It is intentionally written that way, because I don't think you can unintentionally write something. Nonetheless, Mat Ward's work is now canon, no matter that it's done more damage to the Ultramarines than all of GW's previous attention. There will now be a lot of people entering 40k with that image of Ultramarines, and it will continue to be retained for a long time, not least by those who enter the hobby and start playing Ultramarines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1950455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Well, Russ is and always will be the exception. Its what makes Space Wolves so sweet, they answer to no one, but the Emperor's vote gets counted more. Wait, so you mean, people will dislike the Ultramarine because of Mat Ward, or people will think they are the best? Either way, true players will dig deeper and see the real themes that make the Ultramarines cool, the other players are likely to be 12 years old and incapable of understand Carnifexes cannot be used in a Space Marine army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1950459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Considering how many times I have, on this very forum, by some of the more esteemed Ultramarines, been told that GW's statement that the Ultras are the best in the 2nd ed codex means that they are and that's all there is to it? I'm not sure digging deeper is guaranteed to result. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1950508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Written fluff, is still fluff. Its up to the player to find the theme 'they' want them to have. Apologist is a perfect example, his fiction on Guilliman is great, and paints him in a new and interesting light, all the while not contradicting Canon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1950606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tevelyn Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Alpharius... dorn... russ... vulkan... no guilliman didn't piss ANYONE off. And the ultramarines, guilliman specifically are written to be patronizing pricks. He tell alpharius what to do, he obviously knows more than this upstart. He tells dorn, russ and vulkan how to organize their legions. They definitely have no experience worth noting. I"m not saying "I hate guilliman and hte ultramarines". They are specifically written to be patronizing and self important. Their chapter motto is our present rewrites the past or something like that. Its not hating on them to state that the propoganda angle is purposeful throughout their lore. I"m not claiming to be the end all be all expert on ultramarines. But They DEFINITELY rewrite history, and its done very much on purpose, not retconning in the sense of changing current lore, but telling lore the way that hte ultramarines want it told since its being told in their codex. Tev Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165375-guilliman-a-better-warmaster/page/4/#findComment-1950623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.