Guilliman a better Warmaster?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

well, i'll say that guilliman didnt piss off russ.

 

in order to piss somebody off, your opinion must first matter.

 

just how codex are the sons of russ? nuff said.

 

WLK

(all the above is a light hearted attempt to steer away from upcoming codex ultramarine hate)

[Alkana]

(all the above is a light hearted attempt to steer away from upcoming codex ultramarine hate)

 

Nice try, but it was inevitable.

 

Here's just a summary of what will happen:

 

"I hate the Ultrasmurfs! Calgar shouldn't've punched a Avatar to death, Guilliman ruined everything by breaking up the legions, Sicarius is overpowered, blah blah blah, etc."

 

 

In an attempt to steer this thread back to its original purpose, I'll say this:

 

Horus was the only real choice for Warmaster. He was the first Primarch found, was closest to the Emperor, was a great leader, and could get his brothers to do what needed to be done with minimal whining from them. Guilliman was a skilled tactician, but he didn't have the loyalty of all the Primarchs like Horus did.

 

By the way, I'm still waiting for the AL thread.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i'll echo what a few others have said and put my vote for the best warmaster as sanguinius.

 

he had the might, the personality, and the respect to pull it off IMHO.

 

WLK

[Alkana]

Sang. is my second choice, and the only reason my vote's not with him is because I don't know how he got along with the other Primarchs. He was close to Horus, but that's pretty much all I know.

[Marshal Rohr]

The only choices were Sanguinius and Horus. I'd say it came down to seniority, with Horus being found first and Baal being so very close to Terra. In fact I would theorize Sanguinius was second found. Let me check my IA before I put my final stamp on it though.

[Sons of Horus]

baal isn't that close to terra if you check the 40k galaxy map. i believe it's in an entirely different segmentum in fact.

[Marshal Rohr]

Closer than most.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Alpharius... dorn... russ... vulkan... no guilliman didn't piss ANYONE off.

 

And the ultramarines, guilliman specifically are written to be patronizing pricks. He tell alpharius what to do, he obviously knows more than this upstart. He tells dorn, russ and vulkan how to organize their legions. They definitely have no experience worth noting.

 

I"m not saying "I hate guilliman and hte ultramarines". They are specifically written to be patronizing and self important.

Riiiiiight. There's nothing patronizing about Guilliman or the Ultramarines (unless you count me, but I'm actually trying not to be and can't help myself >_<). Guilliman was outright insulting to Alpharius (not patronizing) and the others simply disagreed with him. He never claimed to know better than the other Primarchs. He wrote the Codex Astartes to include all of THEIR tactics.

 

Their chapter motto is our present rewrites the past or something like that. Its not hating on them to state that the propoganda angle is purposeful throughout their lore.

Our Chapter motto is "Courage And Honor!"......

 

I"m not claiming to be the end all be all expert on ultramarines. But They DEFINITELY rewrite history, and its done very much on purpose, not retconning in the sense of changing current lore, but telling lore the way that hte ultramarines want it told since its being told in their codex.

 

Tev

Obviously that'd be a silly claim....

The Ultramarines don't rewrite history so far as anyone could have possibly seen since no history written by the Ultramarines exists for you to read. This claim is ludicrous.

The Codex Astartes is NOT a tome of history. It is a tactical encyclopedia including the tactics and wisdom of countless Imperial commanders, ALL the Primarchs (except maybe Lorgar) including Guilliman himself, and probably quite a bit from The Emperor and possibly the Adeptus Custodes aswell.

[Marshal Rohr]

.... ALL the Primarchs (except maybe Lorgar)....

 

 

Every time the words of Lorgar are read aloud a Daemon bursts into existence. So I don't think Guilliman included much of his stuff in the Codex. :P

[Sons of Horus]

i'm sooo tempted to sig that :P

[JJmug]

so when Guilliman said to Russ, this is the codex split your legion up, and Russ responded with no. Why did Guilliman no fire upon him? Scared of Russ and his sons?

[Alkana]

Our Chapter motto is "Courage And Honor!"......

 

I'm pretty sure he was refering to the phrase on the Ultramarines' chapter banner.

 

You know, "Our presence remakes the past".

 

so when Guilliman said to Russ, this is the codex split your legion up, and Russ responded with no. Why did Guilliman no fire upon him? Scared of Russ and his sons?

 

Russ did split the Space Wolves. They formed the Wolf Brothers, who I think were destroyed for...something.

[The Emperor's Champion]

The Banner Of Macragge may be important, but there are dozens of Ultramarines Chapter Banners and they all say random stuff, so what one of them happens to say has little overall importance. Since that is more or less the "Battle For Macragge memorial edition" of the Chapter Banner I'm pretty sure "Our presence remakes the past" refers to the fallen heroes of Macragge being the difference between this present and one where the Ultramarines were eradicated at Macragge.

 

The Wolf Brothers just suffered catastrophic losses (probably overestimating what a Chapter could handle on it's own or something) and were reabsorbed into the Space Wolves since there weren't enough to call a Chapter anymore.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I'm not sure it would have been as good to have had Sanguinius as Warmaster. Sure, he would have been better than Horus and there would have been no/less of a Heresy, but with all the bad eggs now sitting at the heart of the Imperium, what would have happened then?

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Im sure they have creepy Primarch twin speak.

I always envisioned them kind of being like the twin lawyer guys from Cobra ever since Legion.

[Marshal Rohr]

Lorgar would have been found out eventually and after the 'situation' under the palace had been brought to heel he could deal with Magnus and Kurze.

[Legatus]

Meh... there is a lot of loathing for Gulliman because he's written as a condecending character

He usually isn't. He did include a lot of the tactics from his brother primarchs in the Codex doctrines. It is the Index Astartes Alpha Legion where hee seems out of character, or GW has not sufficiently explained the flaw in the Alpha Legion's approach Guilliman was criticizing.

 

When, during the heresy they were at best the second legion in accomplishments and more likely third after dorn at the time the imp fists were returned to terra.

Depends what you mean with "accomplishments". They liberated the most worlds, left them in a very good state, and suffered the fewest casualties in doing so. A few Legions are said to have accomplished more "victories". THat's good too, I guess.

 

Nonetheless, Mat Ward's work is now canon, no matter that it's done more damage to the Ultramarines than all of GW's previous attention. There will now be a lot of people entering 40k with that image of Ultramarines, and it will continue to be retained for a long time, not least by those who enter the hobby and start playing Ultramarines.

What did Matt Ward really contribute to the background of the Ultramarines? A few "action stories" about how Calgar punches an Avatar or something like that. Unfortunately, the Ultramarines will be hated mostly not for how he described the Ultramarines, but how he described everyone else. It is his statement that the Codex Chapters that are not descended from Guilliman "can never be Ultramarines" and that those with a few differences like the Blood Angels are still trying to live up to Guillimans legacy which pisses everyone off.

 

And the ultramarines, guilliman specifically are written to be patronizing pricks.

I question that claim.

 

He tell alpharius what to do, he obviously knows more than this upstart.

Obviously.

 

He tells dorn, russ and vulkan how to organize their legions. They definitely have no experience worth noting.

He told them that they cannot have 10,000 Marines under their controll anymore. That was not a question of "experience" (other than the experience of the heresy), and was a decree by the High Lords which was applied to all imperial military in a way or another, the Navy and Guard being reformed into separate institutions, and Marine forces being limited in size. For Marines, that decree was written in the Codex Astartes, which included all aspects of Space Marines.

 

They are specifically written to be patronizing and self important.

I think it was during the 2nd battle for Armageddon where both the Ultramarine and the Salamander commander wanted Commander Dante of the Blood Angels to be in charge due to his exceptional experience and fame.

 

I"m not claiming to be the end all be all expert on ultramarines.

Obviously.

 

But They DEFINITELY rewrite history, and its done very much on purpose, not retconning in the sense of changing current lore, but telling lore the way that hte ultramarines want it told since its being told in their codex.

Avatar punching and "everyone wants to be an ultramarie" aside, most of the background concerning Ultramarines and Guilliman comes from 2nd Edition, so those accounts are really the first we got about the events. Next you are going to say that the Dark Angels are really the traitors and their Codex simply has rewritten the events with the fallen.

 

 

EDIT:

so when Guilliman said to Russ, this is the codex split your legion up, and Russ responded with no. Why did Guilliman no fire upon him? Scared of Russ and his sons?

Perhaps because at that time the Space Wolves had about 2000 Marines and were not that much stronger than the decreed guideline of about 1000 men (a number that may well be exceeded to some degree during times of crisis), while the Imperial Fists still had about 4000 (they then lost some during the Iron Cage incident before splitting into 3 chapters).

[Sons of Horus]

for one thing, the Legions during the crusade and heresy eras were much much bigger. they had at least 50,000 astartes each (the largest probably had over 200k)

 

it is 100% WRONG to assume that everyone wants to be a smurf. because a lot of people hate them and the people that play them precisely because of their arrogance. in fact i'm getting even more annoyed now just because of your statement legatus. i'm sure the others here are getting annoyed too at you smurfs.

 

can we all just please not compare the legions anymore :( :angry: :angry:

[Legatus]

in fact i'm getting even more annoyed now just because of your statement legatus.

What statement specifically?

[Captain Idaho]

it is 100% WRONG to assume that everyone wants to be a smurf. because a lot of people hate them and the people that play them precisely because of their arrogance. in fact i'm getting even more annoyed now just because of your statement legatus. i'm sure the others here are getting annoyed too at you smurfs.

 

It is however, 100% correct to assume that most Space Marines, which are Codex Chapters to a lessor or greater degree, aspire to be the best Space Marines they can be. And since they are Codex Chapters, means they want to live up to that Codex. Which means, they do look up to the Ultramarines for inspiration.

 

It doesn't take much to look into the fluff and grasp what is intended, instead of taking a knee jerk reaction...

 

I would try to steer the topic back on topic, though judging from some of the stuff posted here and the fact I think we are going round and round in circles, I think this will just get locked pretty soon.

 

@ Tevelyn: Dude, wind your neck in!

 

@ Alkana: Yeah I have been busy, I do intend to get busy on it. Forgive my tardiness, I have a 3 month old son and am moving house etc!

[Legatus]

I think a consensus both sides could agree on would be that while Guilliman would certainly have had the tactical and strategical skill to command all imperial forces, he did not have full support of all the other Primarchs. Well, pretty much from those primarchs that later betrayed the emperor. Those Primarchs were very fond of Horus, though, as were the loyal primarchs at that time.

 

Edit: Another thing, regarding the thread topic, would be that while Horus obvioulsy had appeared to be the best choice at the time, with hindsight we know that he really wasn't after all, and that indeed Guilliman would have been a better choice for Warmaster than Horus. The follow up question would then be whether any of the other loyal primarchs would have been even better, but that was not the question of this thread.

[Captain Idaho]

I think a consensus both sides could agree on would be that while Guilliman would certainly have had the tactical and strategical skill to command all imperial forces, he did not have full support of all the other Primarchs. Well, pretty much from those primarchs that later betrayed the emperor. Those Primarchs were very fond of Horus, though, as were the loyal primarchs at that time.

 

I agree 100% with that statement.

 

Added to this consensus, we an probably assume that most people would accept that Sanuinius would have been the best choice, with hindsight of course.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

it is 100% WRONG to assume that everyone wants to be a smurf.

 

True. Which I take to mean, 'not every Chapter aspires to the teachings of Guilliman.'

 

because a lot of people hate them and the people that play them precisely because of their arrogance.

 

What this has to do with that above, I don't exactly follow, however.

 

in fact i'm getting even more annoyed now just because of your statement legatus. i'm sure the others here are getting annoyed too at you smurfs.

 

What statement did he make? He was clearing up mistakes and leaps of logic. What, does that amount to Ultralove now?

 

I'm not the biggest fan of the Ultramarines either, but come on.

 

can we all just please not compare the legions anymore :angry: :angry: :angry:

 

If we can't compare the Primarchs and their Legions, how can we discuss this topic?

[Octavulg]

@TEC

Riiiiiight. There's nothing patronizing about Guilliman or the Ultramarines (unless you count me, but I'm actually trying not to be and can't help myself >_<). Guilliman was outright insulting to Alpharius (not patronizing) and the others simply disagreed with him. He never claimed to know better than the other Primarchs. He wrote the Codex Astartes to include all of THEIR tactics.

 

Who gets credit for that?

 

People think that parts of the codex are derived from the works of other Primarchs. It's not like their names are on it. Some of the stuff looks similar.

 

Furthermore, he "presented" the Codex Astartes, claimed that Alpharius' new legion should be adapted to the Codex Astartes, and called Dorn a heretic.

 

While patronizing is something of an understatement for this behavior, it's still not wholly inaccurate.

 

* * *

 

 

@Legatus

He usually isn't. He did include a lot of the tactics from his brother primarchs in the Codex doctrines. It is the Index Astartes Alpha Legion where hee seems out of character, or GW has not sufficiently explained the flaw in the Alpha Legion's approach Guilliman was criticizing.

 

He included the tactics, yes. However, nobody else's name is on it.

 

The only way to be sure something isn't Guilliman's is to read everything else and cross-reference.

 

Thus, every time it's referred to as "his" Codex Astartes? GW endorses plagarism. This is hardly surprising. -_-

 

What did Matt Ward really contribute to the background of the Ultramarines? A few "action stories" about how Calgar punches an Avatar or something like that. Unfortunately, the Ultramarines will be hated mostly not for how he described the Ultramarines, but how he described everyone else. It is his statement that the Codex Chapters that are not descended from Guilliman "can never be Ultramarines" and that those with a few differences like the Blood Angels are still trying to live up to Guillimans legacy which pisses everyone off.

 

He is kinda glowing in his description of them, but since every other writer of the Ultramarines has been that way forever, that's nothing new.

 

He told them that they cannot have 10,000 Marines under their controll anymore. That was not a question of "experience" (other than the experience of the heresy), and was a decree by the High Lords which was applied to all imperial military in a way or another, the Navy and Guard being reformed into separate institutions, and Marine forces being limited in size. For Marines, that decree was written in the Codex Astartes, which included all aspects of Space Marines.

 

That's the bit they objected to. He presents the Codex as a whole, not as "let's split our legions, boys! I'll go first."

 

Indeed, the IA Black Templar is the only source to give us a concrete reason for why the other Primarchs objected, and I believe it also explains which side Ferrus Manus was on. Considering his fluff had him as dead even then...

 

Avatar punching and "everyone wants to be an ultramarie" aside, most of the background concerning Ultramarines and Guilliman comes from 2nd Edition, so those accounts are really the first we got about the events. Next you are going to say that the Dark Angels are really the traitors and their Codex simply has rewritten the events with the fallen.

 

You got a better explanation for how Jonson can, in good conscience, come home and slag the planet he spent his earlier life defending? I'm sure that went well for the civilian population.

 

Not serious, just saying. Not a completely impossible point to argue. Especially if you argue Jonson was corrupt and the other members of his legion were simply unaware.

 

It's kinda funny, actually. The DA are possibly the only playerbase where large chunks don't really like their Primarch that much. :lol:

 

* * *

@Idaho

It is however, 100% correct to assume that most Space Marines, which are Codex Chapters to a lessor or greater degree, aspire to be the best Space Marines they can be. And since they are Codex Chapters, means they want to live up to that Codex. Which means, they do look up to the Ultramarines for inspiration.

 

But that's not what was said, Idaho. It's also reasonable to assume that the statement the Ultramarines are the best at everything is hyperbole, and that individual chapters exceed them in some areas. But that seldom happens, either. (I'm also irked by the bit where he says that every chapter from Ultramarines geneseed sees Calgar as their liege. Christ, way to turn the boys in blue into complete hypocrites).

 

If a Chapter does not wholly follow the Codex, why would they venerate a Chapter that does follow it wholly? Space Marine chapters are proud and individualistic - why would they not see their own way as the best? Indeed, it seems reasonable (to me) to assume that most of them do.

 

Whatever you believe his intended meanings were, the fact remains that that is not what was said, and that his behavior after this does not encourage the alternate interpretation you espouse. Thus, people can get upset at it all they want. They are being told that the way they play/think of their army is wrong and inferior. If they can't get upset about that, I don't know what they can.

 

It doesn't take much to look into the fluff and grasp what is intended, instead of taking a knee jerk reaction...

 

True. On the other hand, perhaps they concluded that what is intended is what was there.

 

Also, people decided they weren't going to look deeper after it was made clear in White Dwarf that there was a pretty good chance Mr. Ward genuinely did feel Ultramarines were that awesome.

 

People aren't wrong just because they don't like the Ultramarines, Idaho. Face this, and move through it.

 

I would try to steer the topic back on topic, though judging from some of the stuff posted here and the fact I think we are going round and round in circles, I think this will just get locked pretty soon.

 

Five bucks says the quote the above when they do it.

 

* * *

 

EDIT:

 

I would question whether Guilliman had the strategic skill. His lack of appreciation for certain ways of warfare is a limiting factor, both in combat and in overall command. Also, considering how he appears to get along with the Loyalist Primarchs after the Heresy (at times), I'm not sure he would have had the support of all of them, either.

 

Horus was the first son, who had walked with the Emperor. He was unabashedly and clearly special. Guilliman and all the others simply were not so. To be frank, no one was a better Warmaster - in fact, it's debatable if anyone could have been a Warmaster at all.

 

Also, what the hell has Sanguinius ever done to stand out above the ordinary (tactically and strategically)?

[Legatus]

Who gets credit for that?

 

People think that parts of the codex are derived from the works of other Primarchs. It's not like their names are on it. Some of the stuff looks similar.

He did compile everything concerning Space Marines in one big tome, so it really can be seen as his work. The other primarchs are not usually specifically credited when the Codex is mentioned, but in other places it does not try to hide that their skills and approaches were also included by Guilliman. The Index Astartes Imperial Fists ('Iron Cage', second paragraph) mentions that Perturabo's writings had been retained by Guilliman in the Codex Astartes.

 

Furthermore, he "presented" the Codex Astartes, claimed that Alpharius' new legion should be adapted to the Codex Astartes, and called Dorn a heretic.

In the Index Astartes Alpha Legion Guilliman "suggests" that the Alpha Legion adopt the "Codex" doctrines, which spurred a heated debate over tactics and ideology. Since it was then later Alpharius who turned traitor for reasons related to "who is the best", my guess is that he is to blame mostly for it getting heated, even though the Index Astartes Alpha Legion does not put it that way specifically.

 

Also, the way the IA AL described Codex Doctrine is a bit different from how the IA IF describes it:

 

"Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex Doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react."

- Index Astartes Imperial Fists, 'Combat Doctrine'

 

"Guilliman believed in rigid structure and hierarchy and had a firm battle doctrine from which his Legion never waivered. (...) However, this attitude was anathema to Alpharius's belief in initiative and adaptability"

- Index Astartes Alpha Legion, 'Origins', shortly before 'Heresy'

 

It looks a bit like the IA Alpha Legion describes the Codex Doctrine in a different light just so they can have Alpharius oppose it's rigid structure. (I cut our the part about how Guilliman was compiling the "right" way for Marines because I wanted to specifically look at the way the Codex Doctrine is presented, not that I then am being accused of omitting the part that presents Guilliman in a bad light.)

 

The Codex Astartes was "presented" officially only after the heresy, at which point the two most important elements, the controlled creation and training of new Marines and teh decree that Mrine forces had to have a certain limit had been included.

 

He included the tactics, yes. However, nobody else's name is on it.

 

The only way to be sure something isn't Guilliman's is to read everything else and cross-reference.

The Codex Astartes is more than tactics. Perhaps the various contributens are credited, who knows. It is a compilation of all aspects of Marine organisation and doctrines, though, not just different tactics where every Primarch has an equal share, and it was compiled by Guilliman, who had probably tested and observed all of the tactics himself, as opposed to just accept contributions by other writers, so I don't think it is wrong to call it "his work".

 

That's the bit they objected to. He presents the Codex as a whole, not as "let's split our legions, boys! I'll go first."

 

Indeed, the IA Black Templar is the only source to give us a concrete reason for why the other Primarchs objected, and I believe it also explains which side Ferrus Manus was on. Considering his fluff had him as dead even then...

The IA Crimson Fists is less specific, but it is noticeable in there as well:

 

"Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines Legion, presented his Codex Astartes - a tome of epic proportions that set out the future of the Legionnes Astartes as smaller units called Chapters, each formed from a parent Legion. A number of the Primarchs, including the Imperial Fists' Rogal Dorn, vehemently opposed Guilliman`s plan, hailing it as detrimental to the security of the Imperium, and a grievous insult to the honour of his legion."

- Index Astartes Crimson Fists

 

The Index Astartes Imperial Fists is not very detailed, just that there was a conflict before Dorn had a vision and went into the Iron Cage. The Black Templar Codex is again very specific though.

 

You got a better explanation for how Jonson can, in good conscience, come home and slag the planet he spent his earlier life defending? I'm sure that went well for the civilian population.

 

Not serious, just saying. Not a completely impossible point to argue. Especially if you argue Jonson was corrupt and the other members of his legion were simply unaware.

It is arguing that accounts given in a Codex and have been consistent the past 10 years and 4 editions of 40K are "wrong", false propaganda by the hands of the faction described in the source book, and I cannot really get behind that.