Guilliman a better Warmaster?

[Captain Idaho]

People aren't wrong just because they don't like the Ultramarines, Idaho. Face this, and move through it.

 

And people aren't right just because they don't like the Ultramarines Octavulg. If we look at the arguements of both sides in this very topic you can see that I have made an effort to clarify my points, using quotes and article references to elaborate and support my point of view. How many people arguing with me can say the same? I notice most people reply to a well formulated post by myself and others by saying what they believe in a different way and not supply a single shred of evidence or quotes to back their opinion up. Or worst they just try and pick holes in how something is said rather than the context it was said in.

 

People are wrong if they cannot back up their argument in the face of evidence supplied right in front of them.

 

Face this, and move through it.

[Hrvat]

As far as I can see this topic has been run almost to the end and I have seen quite a lot of people not thinking nicely of Guilliman. I admit that I do not like some of his actions but when you put in perspective all of his bad sides and all of his good sides and do the same for all other primarchs you will see that he is actually much more a "normal" person than most.

 

The Ultramarines were and are the Legion/Chapter the Emperor championed and they were for a reason.

 

 

Cheers

 

Hrvat

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Double post.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The Ultramarines were and are the Legion/Chapter the Emperor championed and they were for a reason.

 

Eh? The Emperor is in the Throne by the time Guilliman instigates his reforms.

[Captain Idaho]

I think he is referring to the Emperor's chastisment of the Word Bearers in the article of IA Word Bearers. It goes that while the Emperor critisised the Word Bearers for their tardiness during the Crusade, he championed the Ultramarines as his greatest warriors. I forget word for word, but that was the gist of it.

 

Also, the IA Thousand Sons states that Magnus forsaw that Horus was to fall, and even saw how Horus was to play some of his cards. It specifically mentioned how Horus sent the Ultramarines far away, describing the Ultramarines as the Emperor's greatest bastion of alloyed loyalty.

 

That is a factor we haven't considered actually. The Ultramarines are considered to be so loyal to the Emperor, as I described above. It breaks from character that he suddenly became a meglomanic post Heresy.

[Marshal Rohr]

Hating on the Ultramarines because of the way Mat Ward writes them is stupid. If you don't like the Ultramarines it should be because their themes isn't quite what your into, not because one author says your army wants to be them.

 

Look Guys, I am a Black Templars player (primarily), and I don't have any Ultrahate. I don't resent Guilliman for breaking up the Legions or for taking control. No other Primarch was capable of doing it.

 

for one thing, the Legions during the crusade and heresy eras were much much bigger. they had at least 50,000 astartes each (the largest probably had over 200k)

 

it is 100% WRONG to assume that everyone wants to be a smurf. because a lot of people hate them and the people that play them precisely because of their arrogance. in fact i'm getting even more annoyed now just because of your statement legatus. i'm sure the others here are getting annoyed too at you smurfs.

 

can we all just please not compare the legions anymore

 

Your right, Mat Ward was wrong to say that. But that has to do with him being a stupid author, and a bad choice to write the only codex that needs to be objective to not ignite its fan base (as it has done). But this topic is too discuss why Guilliman would have made a better Warmaster, and he showed he would have, but he didn't have the support of his brothers.

 

It is however, 100% correct to assume that most Space Marines, which are Codex Chapters to a lessor or greater degree, aspire to be the best Space Marines they can be. And since they are Codex Chapters, means they want to live up to that Codex. Which means, they do look up to the Ultramarines for inspiration.

 

I wouldn't say it like that. I would say the Ultramarines act as an example of how the Codex Doctrine should be executed, and that other Chapters would like to execute Codex Doctrine as well as the Ultramarines. A Chapter's true divergence isn't their tactics though, it's their beliefs. Look at the Mortifactors, codex out the behind, but their mannerisms and beliefs set them apart. Iron Snakes? Codex. Do you see what I mean?

 

I would question whether Guilliman had the strategic skill. His lack of appreciation for certain ways of warfare is a limiting factor, both in combat and in overall command. Also, considering how he appears to get along with the Loyalist Primarchs after the Heresy (at times), I'm not sure he would have had the support of all of them, either.

 

Of course he did, the Codex encompasses all Tactics. What the Alpha Legion did was espionage, while it is a vital portion of warfare it is not the job for Astartes. You can bet Guilliman loved Alpharius use of asymmetric warfare. Training locals to fight against their rulers is a real world tactic that is very effective, of course Guilliman would have used that, he did something vaguely similar on Macragge.

 

People don't understand what Alpharius was doing, not you Oct-y, but alot of posters think he was just an uber-stealth character. Like they think Corax would sneak around Sam Fisher style. It is just juvenile misconceptions about true warfare perpetuated by the stupid association of words used in the rule book confused with real life doctrines and ability. See my artillery argument. Alpharius would spend weeks and months doing what Guilliman could do in days, and Alpharius would do it like that because he liked it. He used the tactics like CIA field agents used in modern Iraq, see Body of Lies for a hollywood-ized example.

 

Horus was the first son, who had walked with the Emperor. He was unabashedly and clearly special. Guilliman and all the others simply were not so. To be frank, no one was a better Warmaster - in fact, it's debatable if anyone could have been a Warmaster at all.

 

True, I certainly is debatable ;) . Thats why we are doing it. The good Captain might want to change the name the name of the thread to encompass our debates.

 

 

 

Also, what the hell has Sanguinius ever done to stand out above the ordinary (tactically and strategically)?

 

You mean, beside willingly go to his death at the hand of his best friend in the impossible hopes he could bring him back. No guys who would do that don't deserve to lead their brothers....

 

Actually Sanguinius was the only one who could have. He had mastered all forms of physical combat and tactical warfare (IA: Blood Angels) and was a rousing orator to boot. He was precognitive so he could see problems that might arise in dealing with his brother enabling him to adjust his stance and policy accordingly. Sanguinius has never been the focus of much background expansion, because to much focus is on the Black Rage and Death Company. If they would allow Dan Abnett to write about him, I think we would see him evolve into a likely candidate for Warmaster.

 

Look what a few Chapters in Horus Rising and False Gods did for him.

[Octavulg]

Legatus:

He did compile everything concerning Space Marines in one big tome, so it really can be seen as his work. The other primarchs are not usually specifically credited when the Codex is mentioned, but in other places it does not try to hide that their skills and approaches were also included by Guilliman. The Index Astartes Imperial Fists ('Iron Cage', second paragraph) mentions that Perturabo's writings had been retained by Guilliman in the Codex Astartes.

 

That's where the damned Perturabo reference is! :lol:

 

That said, I think I'd get irked if somebody took something I'd written here, stuck it in a bunch of stuff other people and they had written and claimed the whole as their own.

 

It looks a bit like the IA Alpha Legion describes the Codex Doctrine in a different light just so they can have Alpharius oppose it's rigid structure. (I cut our the part about how Guilliman was compiling the "right" way for Marines because I wanted to specifically look at the way the Codex Doctrine is presented, not that I then am being accused of omitting the part that presents Guilliman in a bad light.)

 

The two viewpoints aren't necessarily incompatible with each other. Firstly, anything's more flexible than how the Fists were organized pre-Heresy. Secondly, The Alpha Legion is about as devolved and individualistic as you can get and still be an organization. The Ultramarines are between the two - they have a rigid strategic hierarchy and fairly rigid overall plans, while tactical initiative is still good.

 

It is a compilation of all aspects of Marine organisation and doctrines, though, not just different tactics where every Primarch has an equal share, and it was compiled by Guilliman, who had probably tested and observed all of the tactics himself, as opposed to just accept contributions by other writers, so I don't think it is wrong to call it "his work".

 

While he certainly deserves the title of editor, to call him the author would be pushing it...

 

"Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines Legion, presented his Codex Astartes - a tome of epic proportions that set out the future of the Legionnes Astartes as smaller units called Chapters, each formed from a parent Legion. A number of the Primarchs, including the Imperial Fists' Rogal Dorn, vehemently opposed Guilliman`s plan, hailing it as detrimental to the security of the Imperium, and a grievous insult to the honour of his legion."

- Index Astartes Crimson Fists

 

Both entirely defensible positions. I must say, putting everyone's tactics and organization in a big book seems a little risky to me...

 

The Index Astartes Imperial Fists is not very detailed, just that there was a conflict before Dorn had a vision and went into the Iron Cage. The Black Templar Codex is again very specific though.

 

Don't have it, so can't say.

 

It is arguing that accounts given in a Codex and have been consistent the past 10 years and 4 editions of 40K are "wrong", false propaganda by the hands of the faction described in the source book, and I cannot really get behind that.

 

Me, I like arguing enough for that to be fun.

 

Plus, the idea that the guy who goes home and slags his home world is viewed as anything less than an ass is kinda irksome. :P

 

* * *

Idaho:

And people aren't right just because they don't like the Ultramarines Octavulg.

 

Well, it does suggest that they don't like being told what to think. Which is a rather admirable trait, I've often thought...

 

People are wrong if they cannot back up their argument in the face of evidence supplied right in front of them.

 

True. However, that wasn't what you were replying to. You were, instead, telling people they should not be offended by what Matt Ward wrote, but instead should look for a deeper meaning.

 

He wrote it. It bugs people, and rightly so. Even the deeper meaning you ascribe to it is, at best, debatable. Get over it, and defend what is defensible.

 

Besides, why worry? The whole legion's a warp construct anyway. ;)

 

That is a factor we haven't considered actually. The Ultramarines are considered to be so loyal to the Emperor, as I described above. It breaks from character that he suddenly became a meglomanic post Heresy.

 

Well, before he was a megalomiac with superiors. Afterwards, he's a megalomaniac without. :P

 

To a certain extent, the Emperor's death appeared to make him even more certain of his own rightness and also created a power vacuum.

 

It's not that he wants power, it's that he's arrogant and thinks he's right (and knows what the Emperor would want). Before Heresy, he follows his daddy. After heresy, the Emperor's gone, and he knows what the Emperor would want...right?

 

* * *

Crusaders:

True, I certainly is debatable msn-wink.gif . Thats why we are doing it. The good Captain might want to change the name the name of the thread to encompass our debates.

 

I find the presumption inherent in even posing the question amazing.

 

You mean, beside willingly go to his death at the hand of his best friend in the impossible hopes he could bring him back. No guys who would do that don't deserve to lead their brothers....

 

Hey, I meant tactically. He's got moral goodness all over he place, but he's never struck me as particularly distinguished tactically or strategically (beyond the usual Primarch=godly).

 

Which might work OK. Everyone likes him enough that if he tells them to do something stupid, they'll just politely offer an alternate suggestion. :P

[Legatus]

That's where the damned Perturabo reference is!

The 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines mentions that as well, though I think it refers to the Tactica Imperialis instead of the Codex Astartes.

 

The two viewpoints aren't necessarily incompatible with each other. Firstly, anything's more flexible than how the Fists were organized pre-Heresy.

That's certainly true. :lol:

 

While he certainly deserves the title of editor, to call him the author would be pushing it...

Perhaps he did not just present writings from other Primarchs, but evaluated them and included what he thought was a most efficient application of their approaches. Some of the Primarchs heavily favoured certain types of warfare, and I don't think Guilliman would recomend an all out focus on any of those approaches, but perhaps a more balanced approach.

Perhaps the parts he took from the other primarchs were too neglibible in a book that described almost every imaginable situation.

Perhaps GW did not bother to describe how Guilliman presented his Codex Astartes which also included contributions by the currently living strategical masterminds. (GW does mention later that thousands of the best strategic masterminds have contributed to the Codex Astartes since Guillimans death, though.)

 

Both entirely defensible positions. I must say, putting everyone's tactics and organization in a big book seems a little risky to me...

I am not sure it can even be compiled into a single book. IIRC Every Space Marine of the Ultramarines is tasked to memorize certain passages from it, so that each company overall has a full Codex available (I assume there is a fair bit of redundancy within a company also). Perhaps it is of a magnitude that it is difficult to just a ccuire a copy of it.

 

I find the presumption inherent in even posing the question amazing.

Since we know what Horus did it is really more of a rethorical question...

[Octavulg]

Perhaps GW did not bother to describe how Guilliman presented his Codex Astartes which also included contributions by the currently living strategical masterminds. (GW does mention later that thousands of the best strategic masterminds have contributed to the Codex Astartes since Guillimans death, though.)

 

Or, most likely of all, GW didn't expect anyone to analyze it this heavily.

 

After all, they don't. :)

 

I am not sure it can even be compiled into a single book. IIRC Every Space Marine of the Ultramarines is tasked to memorize certain passages from it, so that each company overall has a full Codex available (I assume there is a fair bit of redundancy within a company also). Perhaps it is of a magnitude that it is difficult to just a ccuire a copy of it.

 

Considering they could use a variety of sneaky technological means to implant it into everyone's mind, I'd assume that was a ceremonial/traditional thing more than a strict necessity.

 

Since we know what Horus did it is really more of a rethorical question...

 

That assumes that Chaos would not have attempted to corrupt Guilliman, and that they would not have succeeded. It's a big galaxy, and it seems likely that they would have found an opportunity eventually.

[Legatus]

That assumes that Chaos would not have attempted to corrupt Guilliman, and that they would not have succeeded. It's a big galaxy, and it seems likely that they would have found an opportunity eventually.

That is a question that probably cannot be answered, but in the other hand, a lot of Primarch turned or got corrupted without being Warmaster. Though, I remember (from someone saying it on this board I think, not from a source) how chaos tested all of the Primarchs and were only successful in corrupting some of them. I don't have an official source for that.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Yep. ALL were tested, only half fell.

It DOES say it somewhere. I know I myself have read it too...but I dunno where either....

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I am not sure it can even be compiled into a single book. IIRC Every Space Marine of the Ultramarines is tasked to memorize certain passages from it, so that each company overall has a full Codex available (I assume there is a fair bit of redundancy within a company also). Perhaps it is of a magnitude that it is difficult to just a ccuire a copy of it.

 

Well, the IG version, the Tactica Imperialis, is definitely too small to be one book, it's spread out across "hundreds of volumes".

 

Plus, the original codex has been lost, all they have is copies of varying ages. This means there are discrepancies and variations between the copies, in the same way that you can get different versions of the Bible today. No-one knows which is the original, if any, so memorising the Codex strictly is impossible.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

The Ultramarines were and are the Legion/Chapter the Emperor championed and they were for a reason.

 

I always thought he was more into the Sons of Horus and the Fists.

 

Hey, I meant tactically. He's got moral goodness all over he place, but he's never struck me as particularly distinguished tactically or strategically (beyond the usual Primarch=godly).

 

I think that's rather the point. All the Primarchs were godlike (compared to us) in pretty much everything. What their differences come down to is whether they reached their potential and what nuances their upbringing fostered.

 

For example:

 

Which might work OK. Everyone likes him enough that if he tells them to do something stupid, they'll just politely offer an alternate suggestion. :)

 

He's not going to tell them to do something stupid, though. However, a wise Warmaster such as Sanguinius would have made would have listened to the input of his brothers and improved (or maybe even changed) whatever grand plan he had.

 

Sanguinius makes plans for a siege. Perturabo helps him using his more nuanced and superior experiences. Assuming Perturabo and his forces aren't being used as garrison forces instead of the glorious conquerors they were born to be. Which, in any case, Sanguinius would have been less likely to allow (though it's not impossible).

 

Also, cue quote:

 

“Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his...” -The Warmaster Horus

[Marshal Rohr]

BEST.QUOTE.EVER.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Well, I could jump in with one or two from recent movies *resists urge to dress in purple suit and do sloppy makeup on face* *resists urge to dress like a drunken pirate* *resists urge to dress in flowing red cape and leather speedo*, but yeah. I agree.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Hmm, the Codex is probably GINORMOUS. It would probably make the Oxford-English Dictionary look like a pittance in comparison. And this Codex/competency discussion kind of spills over into the 10000 Marine discussion in another thread. Marines are supposed to be masters of warfare in every doctrine and type that is feasibly practiced by the Imperium of Mankind and certainly pre-dating it. With heightened mental facilities developed strictly to make them better warriors it would seem fallacy to assume a Marine is only familiar with one type of warfare and that is what they use. They use that because it is what works best for them, and is most familiar. Tactics for Parachute infantry are much different than those used for Mechanized infantry and vice versa. Modern military units train and cross-train for these situations and others; Space Marines train, breath, eat and yes, even sleep these things. Literally. So yeah, Ultras (and other Codex marines) do things by the book, but when that book is the compendium of forty-thousand years of warfare from the human experience? Well, that is a pretty darn flexible book if you ask me!

 

To the OP: Would Papa-Genu Smurf be a better Warmaster? Heck yes. First, he was loyal. Big qualifier to those who worship the Corpse-Emperor is that whole loyalty to Him thing. Might have turned out better in the end, neh? Second, he is most likely the greatest administrator and logistics-planner in the history of the Imperium and pre-Imperium. Something the Imperium needs obviously. Yes I am looking at you US Government, I mean, Administratum *ahem* Third? He had an ego! This is not a knock on him; he was only confident in his supreme abilities and never doubted himself or the abilities of his men! This occurred even during the Perestroika/restructuring of the Codex/Imperial period when many other Primarchs (even my beloved Dorn) took to doubt and despair or let their rage guide them. Guilliman held the center of the Empire through his initiative and skills at micro and macro-management, both military and domestic. He might not have been the great psychological profiler that Horus may have been, but without a doubt, any of the Primarchs would have been able to hold command as Warmaster for the Emperor; I just believe Guilliman's talents would have set him apart or above most of the rest for such a task. However in the fluff it seems that most of the Primarchs had their own place and role to fill through the Heresy; Guilliman's task was to be (to rip of Frank Herbert) "the strength at the base of the pillar" when the Empire threatened to collapse.

[The Emperor's Champion]

^this

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

To the OP: Would Papa-Genu Smurf be a better Warmaster? Heck yes. First, he was loyal. Big qualifier to those who worship the Corpse-Emperor is that whole loyalty to Him thing. Might have turned out better in the end, neh? Second, he is most likely the greatest administrator and logistics-planner in the history of the Imperium and pre-Imperium. Something the Imperium needs obviously. Yes I am looking at you US Government, I mean, Administratum *ahem* Third? He had an ego! This is not a knock on him; he was only confident in his supreme abilities and never doubted himself or the abilities of his men! This occurred even during the Perestroika/restructuring of the Codex/Imperial period when many other Primarchs (even my beloved Dorn) took to doubt and despair or let their rage guide them. Guilliman held the center of the Empire through his initiative and skills at micro and macro-management, both military and domestic. He might not have been the great psychological profiler that Horus may have been, but without a doubt, any of the Primarchs would have been able to hold command as Warmaster for the Emperor; I just believe Guilliman's talents would have set him apart or above most of the rest for such a task. However in the fluff it seems that most of the Primarchs had their own place and role to fill through the Heresy; Guilliman's task was to be (to rip of Frank Herbert) "the strength at the base of the pillar" when the Empire threatened to collapse.

 

1. Loyalty? This assumes Horus' fall was predestined. It may be thematically appropriate that he fall (prodigal son and all that) but it apparently took quite a few plot devices for him (and certain other Primarchs, Mr. Perfect) to fall from grace.

 

2. Great administrators don't necessarily have to or will do best at the top of the pyramid.

 

3. ...Horus had an ego. Heck, there weren't many that didn't. ;)

 

Just saying. Horus was the Warmaster the growing Imperium needed at the time of the Great Crusade. Guilliman was the man the Imperium needed after the Heresy. Both filled different roles and, barring asshattery on the part of Lorgar :P, could have worked in synergy to form an Imperium that would never fall and lead Mankind along the precipice the Emperor had foreseen.

 

Of course, once the Great Crusade ended and the stars belonged truly to Mankind, cracks might have begun to appear. But considering the Great Crusade only conquered two million worlds out of uncountable billions in our galaxy alone, I think we can safely assume the Nids would have arrived to create a threat for Mankind to focus on instead of himself by the time that even became a remote possibility. Or the galactic immune system that is Orkdom.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Perhaps because at that time the Space Wolves had about 2000 Marines and were not that much stronger than the decreed guideline of about 1000 men (a number that may well be exceeded to some degree during times of crisis), while the Imperial Fists still had about 4000 (they then lost some during the Iron Cage incident before splitting into 3 chapters).

 

due you have any actual information on the numbers of the space wolves?

 

cuase this has been up to debate in my FLGS, and the only asnwer we came up with is this: with the might of the Imperium behind him, Guilliman came to fenris and demanded the Wolves be broken. Russ, stubborn as ever be seeing no realistic alternative, began the slow process of breaking his legion down. THe WOlf Brothers were then former. Guilliman, seeing this, took Russ at his word and returned to being a tyrant elsewhere (the FLGS opinion). Russ then abandon his efforts when the coast was clear. The Wolf Brothers were made of the Marines who fell to the curse of the wulfen, and no longer a reliable space wolf battleforce. with Guilliman gone they were against disbanded and placed back to their old positions.

while no longer in the legion numbers, the strength of the wolves was then untouched.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

I am sure if you make up your own stuff you can come up with a lot more answers than one?

[Alkana]

@ Alkana: Yeah I have been busy, I do intend to get busy on it. Forgive my tardiness, I have a 3 month old son and am moving house etc!

 

Take your time, real life is a lot more important than arguing about fictional universes on the internet.

 

Also, what the hell has Sanguinius ever done to stand out above the ordinary (tactically and strategically)?

 

He has wings.

 

Also,

Actually Sanguinius was the only one who could have. He had mastered all forms of physical combat and tactical warfare (IA: Blood Angels) and was a rousing orator to boot. He was precognitive so he could see problems that might arise in dealing with his brother enabling him to adjust his stance and policy accordingly.

 

I think he is referring to the Emperor's chastisment of the Word Bearers in the article of IA Word Bearers. It goes that while the Emperor critisised the Word Bearers for their tardiness during the Crusade, he championed the Ultramarines as his greatest warriors. I forget word for word, but that was the gist of it.

 

I think the Emperor was lying. Or at least stretching the truth.

 

Let me explain:

 

The Emperor, and later Horus, would need the absolute loyalty from his subordinates. He did this by flattering them at every possible opportunity. The Emperor's Children were the only Legion that could have the Aquila on their armor, marking them out as the Emperor's favoured legion. The Ultramarines are praised as his "greatest warriors". Horus did this too. In the Horus Heresy novels, he can't seem to figure out who his favorite brother is. First it's Sanguinius, then Fulgrim, then Lorgar, etc.

 

It's entirely possible that the Ultramarines were his greatest warriors, but if the Ultras were the best, why wasn't Guilliman made Warmaster?

 

Guilliman was the only choice after the heresy, when Horus and Sanguinius were killed. Before the Heresy, he had the Emperor's real favorites to contest with.

 

I think the only reason we're having this discussion(which is quickly turning into an argument) about whether or not Guilliman should have been Warmater is because GW has always written the Ultramarines as the best at everything. All the other legions have some really big flaw, but the Ultramarines are supposed to be perfect.

[Legatus]

I think the Emperor was lying. Or at least stretching the truth.

 

Let me explain:

 

The Emperor, and later Horus, would need the absolute loyalty from his subordinates. He did this by flattering them at every possible opportunity.

I think it is entirely plausible that the author of that Index Astartes just wanted to have a reason for why Lorgar could despise Guilliman, just as they did with the Alpha Legion Index Astartes.

[Alkana]

I think it is entirely plausible that the author of that Index Astartes just wanted to have a reason for why Lorgar could despise Guilliman, just as they did with the Alpha Legion Index Astartes.

 

Nowadays, you don't need a reason to hate Guilliman.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

1. Loyalty? This assumes Horus' fall was predestined. It may be thematically appropriate that he fall (prodigal son and all that) but it apparently took quite a few plot devices for him (and certain other Primarchs, Mr. Perfect) to fall from grace.

 

2. Great administrators don't necessarily have to or will do best at the top of the pyramid.

 

3. ...Horus had an ego. Heck, there weren't many that didn't. :D

 

Just saying. Horus was the Warmaster the growing Imperium needed at the time of the Great Crusade. Guilliman was the man the Imperium needed after the Heresy. Both filled different roles and, barring asshattery on the part of Lorgar :P, could have worked in synergy to form an Imperium that would never fall and lead Mankind along the precipice the Emperor had foreseen.

Truth on all points! I think in the 2nd edition fluff it states that all the Primarchs were challenged and tempted by the Chaos pantheons at some point so you can maybe say that Horus would have fallen title or no title.

 

@Alkana: It isnt so much the Ultras, their Primarch or Calgar. Ok, maybe Calgar a little bit! Sicarius is made of pure win though. It is that damn Codex calling any non-codex chapter "Aberrant". As a BT, SW and "Fallen" DA player that kind of chaps my behind a bit.

[Alkana]

@Alkana: It isnt so much the Ultras, their Primarch or Calgar. Ok, maybe Calgar a little bit! Sicarius is made of pure win though. It is that damn Codex calling any non-codex chapter "Aberrant". As a BT, SW and "Fallen" DA player that kind of chaps my behind a bit.

 

That's what started the fad of hating Ultras. I remember there being many people who disliked(or even hated) the UMs before the new codex, myself included.

 

I won't lie though, Sicarius is cool.