Wadey13 Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 I'm just reading Battle for the Abyss at the moment, and I just can't get into it! It just doesn't seem to be well written to me, it's clunky and jolts suddenly. So I was just looking at the author's of the other Horus Heresy Books, and I noticed he also wrote Galaxy In Flames! I just can't understand it, I consider the opening 3 novels in the series to be the best, and Galaxy In Flames was really really incredible, so when I'm reading Battle for The Abyss I can't work out why it seems so different. The writing style and atmosphere just don't compare, and there's just something missing. Has anybody else found this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Disciple Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 From what I read of battle for the abyss before I threw it down in disgust it just reads like a typical Ben Counter novel. In all fairness to him he can write some stunning peices but on the whole I'm not a fan of his work. The first three books were a collaberation between the three authors so Counter had to work within a predefined story with predefined characters. I do agree that he did a great job on Galaxy in Flames but I do think he should be banned from anything related to Word Bearers ;) Disciple Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1946878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wadey13 Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 Yeah well the funny thing is, I read the first of the Sould Drinkers books aaaagggees ago, and I really enjoyed it. The only reason I never got rouind to the rest of them was my discovery of Dan Abnett! It's my personal goal to read all of his books! So yeah I'm not a WOrd Bearer's officianando and I've only read a couple of scenes with them in, but again, something just isn't right there. The whole thing just doesn't seem to read well, we'll see anyway, I've still got a lot of the book left and I refuse to skip any of the Heresy series Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1946969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 ok honestly battle for the abyss was THE WORST HH NOVEL EVER ALONG WITH DESCENT OF ANGELS. galaxy in flames was truly amazing but then again maybe he was inspired by the 2 previous novels whilst with battle he had to draw inspiration from where? thin air. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1947038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyear Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Off Topic: Descent of Angels did not suck, it wasn't a Horus Heresy, it was a Pre- Great Crusade era book to be honest. Alright back on topic: I concur with my above posters that Counter had a great story to start off with, and seeing him in Battle for the Abyss just made me cringe. It wasn't a bad book, but it sure as heck wasn't good either. If anyone should be writing Word Bearer fiction it should be the guy who's doing the books right now. He's great IMHO ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1947274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Caesar_ Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Yeah, Battle for the Abyss is the worst HH novel thus far. So many of the recent HH books haven't been up to the par of the first three though. Fulgrim was on the lower end of "ok," Descent of Angels just didn't click with me, and Mechanicum had a problem with focus. After these novels and some non-HH ones, I can honestly say that Ben Counter and Graham McNeill are the Black Library's worst authors. Counter's books seem generally lifeless and McNeill's writing style came across as juvenile with his over-describing of things to get across their immensity, like the awesome awesomeness of the ultra-awesome Primarchs and their not as awesome but still totally awesome Space Marines. I was honestly and pleasantly surprised when I read the first few chapters of Mechanicum. McNeill seemed to do a 180 with that aspect of his writing, but as the book went on I just kinda felt like the story got diluted. Abnett is definitely #1 and I've yet to read a book of his that I find even mediocre. I'm reading Brotherhood of the Snake right now though, and while very good, there's a surprising amount of fluff deviation that I wouldn't have expected from the man. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1947339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notlage Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Abnett is definitely #1 and I've yet to read a book of his that I find even mediocre. I'm reading Brotherhood of the Snake right now though, and while very good, there's a surprising amount of fluff deviation that I wouldn't have expected from the man. ...(the man) who wrote Legion? Sorry, struck me as funny. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1947460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Caesar_ Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Nothing about Legion struck me as heavily violating the fluff, not to mention it was packed with subtleties that very few Black Library authors could really do as well as Abnett. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1947638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 He also got the go ahead to write that little thing into fluff. Hes one of the few people actually expanding the fluff and not rehashing it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1947662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Marshal2 Crusaders Posted Today, 10:42 PM He also got the go ahead to write that little thing into fluff. Hes one of the few people actually expanding the fluff and not rehashing it. He also seems to be one of the few people who actually checks for Studio approval before expanding fluff, rather than just doing as he sees fit and expecting it to be taken as canon. Other writers have been known to favour the latter approach. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1947673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Looking at you Counter and McNeill.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1947851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor The Great Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 The Characters in battle for the Abyss realy annoyed me. Especialy the Ultramarines,not because they are Ultras,but they just seem to be to static.they seem to look down on the others and assume they should contol everything.Havent read the book in ages,I managed to finish it and thought to my self......that was the worst ive ever read(in the HH seris),Decent of Angels was better because it sorta leaves some wiggle room for the next book to be half way decent.If the Ultras from the book are any thing to measure up against,no HH book could ever include them ever again,Its just unfortunate that these EPIC FAILURES of characters share the spot light with some kick ass characters,The Space Wolves,The thousand son and the World Eater. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1947871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 actually the space wolf in battle wasn't so nice either. he seemed too wild and undisciplined. the space wolves in wolf at the door in Tales of Heresy were much much better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1948043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor The Great Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 They all had a personality,that made them kick ass compared to the static Ultras,Ben Counter took the idea of Ultras being boring and took it to a new level,in my opinion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1948312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 We need Sandy Mitchell on HH. I always said, that all the comical relief aside, Cain's novels are the most "fluff-compliant" I read so far. Even Abnett slides more on that aspect. *get cover form the incoming stones* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1948889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 We need Sandy Mitchell on HH. I always said, that all the comical relief aside, Cain's novels are the most "fluff-compliant" I read so far. Even Abnett slides more on that aspect. *get cover form the incoming stones* i completely agree. Mitchell is awesome. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1948892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Ok, does this mean I should skip BftA? And jump straight to Mechanicum? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1948934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wadey13 Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 I personally wouldn't skip any of them. I don't think Battle for the Abyss is going to be essential to the stroyline, but then neither was Descent of Angels, and I enjoyed that. A good book is a good book, and hopefully this one will make me eat my words. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1949102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WimvH Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Well ...euhm... I liked it. It kept me turning pages right to the end. Agreed, the characters didn't evolve much, but what the heck? I actually liked the World Eaters and Thousand Son being on side of the loyalists. Kind of explains the chaos and uncertainty in times of civil war. Though there were parts I didn't like - the final drop ship assault on the Abyss was exaggerated, I think - it is an overall good read. Like the World Eaters flunking the assault on the docked Abyss, because they could not resist killing. The Space Wolf being a loose cannon - easily mistaken for being a traitor himself, the Thousand Son - despised and locked up, seeing the future and Prospero burning, but still remaining loyal to the end. To each his own, I guess :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1949732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notlage Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Nothing about Legion struck me as heavily violating the fluff, not to mention it was packed with subtleties that very few Black Library authors could really do as well as Abnett. Semantics. Deviation could be writing new fluff (one superdude becomes 2), or expanding on it (ohh, thats why they say 'for the emperor' as their war cry), not necessary violating it (GK chaplain Mr. Counter?). As others have pointed out: Abnett expands the universe with the most responsiblitiy and grace. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1950002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Caesar_ Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Semantics. Deviation could be writing new fluff (one superdude becomes 2), or expanding on it (ohh, thats why they say 'for the emperor' as their war cry), not necessary violating it (GK chaplain Mr. Counter?). As others have pointed out: Abnett expands the universe with the most responsiblitiy and grace. I'm not arguing that, I simply stated in my first post that he took some unexpected liberties in writing Brothers of the Snake. Case in point, the Iron Snakes revere the Emperor as a god, a belief that Space Marines don't generally hold. He seems to be confused with the differences between a plasma gun and a plasma cannon. There are a whole bunch of other things that I could point out as instances where the book deviates from standard fluff. As a writer who generally comports himself with an understanding and respect of the 40k universe, I was simply surprised by his deviations as they weren't really universe expanding so much as they were erroneous. Contrast that with Legion where there are no such issues and Abnett does a fantastic job of working within and expanding the established fluff to create an excellent and intrigue-filled novel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1950256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hialmar Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Actually most of the Horus Heresy books have been on par with the rest of the Black Library books. They are uneven in quality for the most part but overall they are enjoyable and can be read. I personally thought the two worst were Legion and this last unrelated short story book that was foisted off on us as being a part of this stroyline. I do find it a bit funny that quite a few people here tend to like or dislike the book based upon the authors portrayal of given Legions. It appears that if the best/most interesting character is not in your favorite legion or is in a legion the poster does not like then the trend seems to bash the book. I thought Galaxy in Flames was better book but I enjoyed Battle for the Abyss as well. I think personally that the Ultramarine characters were for the most part given the least development of the main characters but that has much less to do with the chapter than a flawed attempt by the writer to show how straightlaced and hide-bound the chapter is by making the character less interesting. Some books are better than others and some characters, regardless of affilitation, are more interesting than others. I would hazard a guess that no poster on this, or any other forum, has any inside knowledge on which authors have been given permission to expand or alter fluff. As the book and storyline develops certain things will need to be written to make that storyline plausible or at least flow correctly, so that is how fluff gets changed. I have been around since Rogue Trader and the various background/storylines have altered many times in many ways and the fans have always grumbled. I think one way of looking at this would be that if you look at the past codices and rulebooks and older material as history books, explaining past events as they were understood to happen, it is easy to speculate that the current Horus Heresy novels will not exactly reflect the past fluff. I think these books may be intended to be narrative/viewpoint of the people involved in the "current" events versus what was written before in "historical" fluff. The differences can also be explained easily by an Imperium that knowingly deletes facts and details from its database of knowledge if it does not cast people/events in the most flattering light. I am sure I will purchase the rest of the Horus Heresy books if I am around long enough to do so, and I am sure I will enjoy some of them more than others. I certainly hope that the best books are yet to come as they certainly have the potential based on what we think we know the future holds for the various characters. I am hoping there are some surprises from a fluff as we know it standpoint in the future novels as that could really lead to some interesting possibilities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1951713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I would have to agree with Hialmar for the most part. Except, I've really quite enjoyed all the books. My old roommate has also liked all but Descent of Angels and he had no prior knowledge of the Legions or the Horus Heresy (and still doesn't, being a dirty tau player). His main reason for not liking Descent of Angels is that he didn't like how the book abruptly ended. My least favorite is the same for much the same reasons. I do have to disagree with Hialmar on Legion, however, as I feel it is one of the stronger, more interesting books in the series past the first three, which were all extremely enjoyable reads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1952095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonius Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 I found BftA a strange book. It was OK as a story (And I think there will be sequels into the Battle for Calth), but it just didn't feel Heresy-ish to me. It felt like a standard 40K story and characters with the clock on the wall simply turned to read 30K. All the other HH novels and stories feel, to me, to have the proper atmoshere of a different time and place in an age of hope and reason, not the grim dark of 40K - but this one just ... didn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1958301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJB Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 If you ignore the 2 incredibly boring Ultramarines characters, it wasn't that bad... And besides, Tales of Heresy has (to me at least) overtaken Descent of Angels as the worst of the series so far - Even the decent World Eaters story couldn't save it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165442-comparing-galaxy-in-flamnes-and-battle-for-the-abyss/#findComment-1960032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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