Plasma Cannon replaced the Missile Launcher

[Brother_Kluft]

Someone above wanted to see the math hammer on deviations with templates , so here it is.

 

1/3 = 2/6 of the time is a straight hit.

 

To get no deviation with BS 4 you need to roll 4 or less on 2d6. Combinations equaling 4 or less on 2d6 are (1,1), (1,2),(1,3) (2,1)(2,2), (3,1) = 6/36 = 1/6

 

So a direct hit will happen 2/6 + 1/6 = 3/6 = 50% of the time.

 

Let us consider however that if you scatter 1 inch the template will still be on target/hole over the vehicle (i think every vehicle is at least 2+ inches wide) this means with BS4 you would need to roll a five or less.

(1,1)(1,2)(1,3)(1,4) (2,1)(2,2)(2,3)(3,1)(3,2) = 9/36

 

So when you are shooting any vehicle thats 2 inches or more wide (ie any vehicle) your chance is

12/36 + 9/36 = 21/36 = 58%

 

For 4 inch wide vehicles a 2 inch deviation is fine which means you need to roll a 6 or less on 2d6

(1,1)(1,2)(1,3)(1,4)(1,5)(2,1)(2,2)(2,3)(2,4)(3,1)(3,2)(3,3)(4,1),(4,2) =14/36

Total chance = 12/36 + 14/36 = 72%

 

For a 6 inch wide vehicle you can deviate 3 inches, which means you need to roll 7 or less

There is a 16/32 chance of rolling 7 or less

Total chance is 87%

 

Summary (BS4 , assuming you center the blast on the center of the vehicle)

Direct Hit = 50%

Hit on any vehicle = 58%

Hit on a 4 inch wide vehicle = 72%

Hit on 6 inch wide vehicle = 87%

 

 

Clearly the chance of hitting is actually BETTER with blast then with normal BS (which is 66%), except when shooting at vehicles less then 4 inches wide (of which there are very few)

 

Templates are golden in 5E, thats all I can say.

[minigun762]

Lots of posts up so I'll give my 2 cents on the topics.

 

1) As far as Multi-Meltas go, I think they're a great buy for Tactical squads or squads that will be moving up the board. The reason is that 1) they're free 2) 24" range doesn't matter much when you're camping the middle of the board and 3) Even outside the 12" range, they are always AP1 so they're automatically superior at tank busting (and Terminator killing) then a Missile Launcher.

What they are not good for is camping in your deployment area.

 

2) For Math-hammering a blast weapon, I think Brother_Kluft is close but not quite right.

To get no deviation with BS 4 you need to roll 4 or less on 2d6. Combinations equaling 4 or less on 2d6 are (1,1), (1,2),(1,3) (2,1)(2,2), (3,1) = 6/36 = 1/6 So a direct hit will happen 2/6 + 1/6 = 3/6 = 50% of the time.

It would be 1/3 + 1/6 of the time. Its 1/3 +1/6 of the remaining 2/3 = 33% + 11% = 44% so slightly less. However anything less than 2" of scatter is also a hit usually so I would say that the chances to hit with BS4 are approximately the same. True the Plasma Cannon is less useful at taking out enemy armor, but it is more useful at taking out infantry. Its a tradeoff.

 

3) About Insta-killing T4 models, other than Nob Bikers how many times do you really see a T4 model that isn't buried in a squad or has Eternal Warrior/Synapse. It doesn't seem very frequent to me.

 

4) As far as Over Heating, it is a chance to be honest but realistically the chance of dying from it is small. 16.6% chance to overheat followed by 33% chance to fail the armor save means there is roughly a 5.5% chance to die per turn you fire. To me thats an acceptable risk.

However I could see the arguement of not firing being used.

[Brother_Kluft]

@ minigun : 1/3 = 2/6

Edit : thanks for your nice reply, very gentlemanly, much appreciated

[minigun762]

@ minigun : 1/3 = 2/6

 

Oh I know :P I was talking about something else, but upon a second look I'm not sure if I'm right so disregard my comment about your math being off for the time being.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

Why not put your silly loyalist weapons away? Join Chaos and field Obliterators, who get the best weapons and can change them every round.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'd say that the changes to 5th edition has swung in favour of the plasma cannon over the missile launcher;

 

- Killing vehicles requires multiple hits and as hard-hitting as possible, due to 4+ hull down (which any Fast transport can get while turbo-boosting, Imperial vehicles can get via smoke launchers, Tau can buy disruption pods for a constant save etc) and the changes to the damage chart (which have rendered glancing hits near-useless, and even penetrating hits require a 5+ typically to destroy, unless AP1). As such, krak rockets are simply ineffective against all but the lightest armour. Plasma cannon is little better, but is superior against infantry.

- Blast weapons now miss less (before you would either hit or miss, now there is scatter and BS reductions), and there are no more partials (meaning more hits regardless of where the template ends up). While this benefits the frag blast as well as plasma, the power of a frag blast is severely hampered by it's mediocre Strength and weak AP.

- Plaguebearers and Plague Marines are two of the hardest Troops choices in the game, and staples of their respective armies. Krak rockets will do little to them (frag is a waste of time), plasma cannon will tear them apart.

- There is a small cost difference between the two (whereas before the price difference was much greater). Fitting plasma cannons into Tactical squads has never been easier, take advantage of it.

 

Tactical squads are the cheapest source of plasma cannon in the army, and are a Troops choice to boot. None of the other heavy options come close to the plasma cannon when it comes to killing infantry of all types, and it favourably compares to the plasma gun for killing squads of multi-wound models (blast can garner more hits = more wounds inflicted, gun fires discrete shots that are better against lone MC's).

 

Leave anti-tank to the pros (Attack Bike multi-meltas, Bikers with meltaguns, drop-podded Dreadnought multi-meltas, Vindicators, Landraider lascannons), focus your Tacticals and Sternguard on killing infantry (which is what they do best). I don't use Tacticals myself (I bring in Malleus allies so I just take two basic Scout sniper squads, nothing fancy), but this is what I would take;

 

Sergeant with powerfist, 7 x Tactical Marines, Marine with plasma gun, Marine with plasma cannon, Rhino

(245 points)

 

Hold the line with your AP2 firepower (especially effective with Mystics against Deepstriking armies like Daemons, Deathwing, Chaos etc), then re-position to take objectives using your Rhino.

 

For my Sternguard, I like the following (don't use combi-meltas anymore);

 

Vet with powerfist, 7 x Sternguard, 2 x Sternguard with plasma cannon

(295 points)

 

Expensive but very effective gun-line. Their special ammo covers most other infantry, but 2+ saves really confound them (all they have is Hellfire, which wounds more often than standard bolter but still requires 6 wounds to drop one model). Combined with Mystics, they can counter enemy Deepstrikers pretty effectively (I've got lascannon elsewhere for popping Dreadnoughts), and they are fantastic for killing enemy Troops recently spilled from destroyed transports.

[Nehekhare]

PC's run with the category of terminator hunter in my head.

 

Anyone else bothered by this, since TDA was originally protection suit for work in PLASMA reactors? :lol:

[Captain Malachi]

A plasma reactors radiation effects are very, very different to a focused blast of pure plasma from a cannon mate :lol:

[slayer138]

Personally I love lobbing four frags into my bro's big blocks of IG.

Target rich environment+squishy little men=megadeath

[minigun762]

Tactical squads are the cheapest source of plasma cannon in the army, and are a Troops choice to boot. None of the other heavy options come close to the plasma cannon when it comes to killing infantry of all types, and it favourably compares to the plasma gun for killing squads of multi-wound models (blast can garner more hits = more wounds inflicted, gun fires discrete shots that are better against lone MC's).

Sergeant with powerfist, 7 x Tactical Marines, Marine with plasma gun, Marine with plasma cannon, Rhino

(245 points)

 

With this kind of squad, what I'd probably do is drop the Power Fist and replace the Rhino with a Razorback.

You lose out on close combat power but get alot more firepower to pour down range and you could always combat squad the unit if you really want to move the PG portion around.

[Bartali]

Someone above wanted to see the math hammer on deviations with templates , so here it is.

 

1/3 = 2/6 of the time is a straight hit.

 

To get no deviation with BS 4 you need to roll 4 or less on 2d6. Combinations equaling 4 or less on 2d6 are (1,1), (1,2),(1,3) (2,1)(2,2), (3,1) = 6/36 = 1/6

 

So a direct hit will happen 2/6 + 1/6 = 3/6 = 50% of the time.

 

Let us consider however that if you scatter 1 inch the template will still be on target/hole over the vehicle (i think every vehicle is at least 2+ inches wide) this means with BS4 you would need to roll a five or less.

(1,1)(1,2)(1,3)(1,4) (2,1)(2,2)(2,3)(3,1)(3,2) = 9/36

 

So when you are shooting any vehicle thats 2 inches or more wide (ie any vehicle) your chance is

12/36 + 9/36 = 21/36 = 58%

 

For 4 inch wide vehicles a 2 inch deviation is fine which means you need to roll a 6 or less on 2d6

(1,1)(1,2)(1,3)(1,4)(1,5)(2,1)(2,2)(2,3)(2,4)(3,1)(3,2)(3,3)(4,1),(4,2) =14/36

Total chance = 12/36 + 14/36 = 72%

 

For a 6 inch wide vehicle you can deviate 3 inches, which means you need to roll 7 or less

There is a 16/32 chance of rolling 7 or less

Total chance is 87%

 

Summary (BS4 , assuming you center the blast on the center of the vehicle)

Direct Hit = 50%

Hit on any vehicle = 58%

Hit on a 4 inch wide vehicle = 72%

Hit on 6 inch wide vehicle = 87%

 

 

Clearly the chance of hitting is actually BETTER with blast then with normal BS (which is 66%), except when shooting at vehicles less then 4 inches wide (of which there are very few)

 

Templates are golden in 5E, thats all I can say.

 

Your maths are slightly out. The chance of a direct hit (no scatter or deviation of 4" or less) is 44% rather than 50%

 

Chance of a direct hit = 1/3

IF NOT A HIT, chance of scattering 4" or less = 2/3 * 1/6 = 2/18 or 1/9

Total chance of hit (direct hit + scatter of 4" or less) = 1/3 + 1/9 = 4/9 or 44%

 

Anyhoo, I think ML's work best in multiples, such as a Dev squad. If I'm taking a single weapon in a squad (tac etc) it's going to be the AP2 blast loveliness of the Plasma Cannon.

[King Tiger]

and both of those weapons do their respective jobs better than a Missile Launcher does.

really?, the missile launchers job is to be able to hurt something at a range of 48", infantry or vehicle, the heavy bolter, multi melta and plasma cannon all fail at this without a shadow of a doubt

That depends on your dice, I guess. :lol:

 

Amen...

+1

 

QFT ^^

also quoted for supreme ultra truthness, for allot of us plasma weapons of any kind ALWAYS blow up first shot, its a fact that cannot be disputed

 

although I like the idea of plasma cannons, making them work is hard, placing them in tactical squads feels like a waste since I'd be moving practically every turn, devastators are too expensive, and a dreadnough feels too vulnerable without numbers

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I echo the thoughts of many. MLs are okay but good value for Devs.

They are like Autocannons. Not bad and okay against a few things.

 

For Tacs though, they get the "fancy" weapons for cheap. :)

 

LCs: the best long range gun for Armour and Heavy Infantry.

MMs: the best short range gun for Armour and Heavy Infantry.

 

Plasma Cannons generally do better than MLs in a number of situations, though the 5.55% (1 in 6 x 1 in 3) chance of death is real, which is 33% over six turns. They kill light, medium and heavy infantry better.

 

BUT, I think marines kill men well already and are taking bread off their table, so to speak . So if I was given the option between PC & ML, I would choose LC or MM.... ;)

 

p.s. Line your dice with sixes up each night. It must help, right? ;)

[Grey Mage]

It would seem that the Plasma Cannon has become the mainstay weapon, especially in the new SM codex.

It used to be the Missile Launcher, as it was the main yardstick of flexibility, but the Plasma Cannon trades -1S for +1 AP power and always has the blast marker, helping it against horde. So does the S8 and 12" extra range of the Missile Launcher keep it competitive?

I think so.... and the discount doesnt hurt either ;).

 

I think the main thing that helps out MLs vs Plasmacannons is that plasmacannons scatter- a krak missile is both stronger and more accurate.

 

Of course, some people find they have better luck ont he scatter dice than they do on BS... so your mileage may vary.

[minigun762]

It would seem that the Plasma Cannon has become the mainstay weapon, especially in the new SM codex.

It used to be the Missile Launcher, as it was the main yardstick of flexibility, but the Plasma Cannon trades -1S for +1 AP power and always has the blast marker, helping it against horde. So does the S8 and 12" extra range of the Missile Launcher keep it competitive?

I think so.... and the discount doesnt hurt either :woot:.

 

I think the main thing that helps out MLs vs Plasmacannons is that plasmacannons scatter- a krak missile is both stronger and more accurate.

 

Of course, some people find they have better luck ont he scatter dice than they do on BS... so your mileage may vary.

 

I think for tank busting the Krak is obviously better, but if you want to buy a tank buster, the equally free MM is much better even if all you ever use it for is the AP1.

 

In the case of the scatter, I think thats more of a concern for vehicles, because even if you scatter over a unit some, you're typically over some part of it.

[Grey Mage]

It would seem that the Plasma Cannon has become the mainstay weapon, especially in the new SM codex.

It used to be the Missile Launcher, as it was the main yardstick of flexibility, but the Plasma Cannon trades -1S for +1 AP power and always has the blast marker, helping it against horde. So does the S8 and 12" extra range of the Missile Launcher keep it competitive?

I think so.... and the discount doesnt hurt either :).

 

I think the main thing that helps out MLs vs Plasmacannons is that plasmacannons scatter- a krak missile is both stronger and more accurate.

 

Of course, some people find they have better luck ont he scatter dice than they do on BS... so your mileage may vary.

 

I think for tank busting the Krak is obviously better, but if you want to buy a tank buster, the equally free MM is much better even if all you ever use it for is the AP1.

 

In the case of the scatter, I think thats more of a concern for vehicles, because even if you scatter over a unit some, you're typically over some part of it.

 

Ahh... but half the range on the MM means that your HW squad, that cant move and shoot, will have to be moving around to get into range, or pray the enemy comes to them on larger boards. Id rather have the 48" range and use my Troops to pop things with meltas. But, I can see where your going with that, and your not alone in that opinion by any means.

 

And again with the scatter- this was in the primary purpose of Tank Hunting. IMO a ML is a Tank Hunter first, with decent troop hurting capabilities as a secondairy consideration.

[Jamumools]

I take 2 Tactical Squads, 1 with Plasma Cannon and Plasma Gun, 1 with Missile Launcher and Flamer, both in Rhinos. The Plasma Squad is effectively an objective camper - it sits there and melts anything that comes too close. I usually lose the plasma cannon at some point during the game (which brings up the question of what happens when a plasma cannon explodes inside a Rhino...!) but he always gets his points back and it scares people from getting too close to that objective. The missile launcher squad generally takes a pop shot in the first turn with the missile launcher and, depending on the scenario, enemy and battlefield, will often zip up the battlefield to get an objective or jump out and rapid fire/flame a squad.

 

So the point is - BOTH are good! Plasma Cannon can be killer (especially combined with the Plasma Gun) and creates a lot of fear. The missile launcher less so but it obviously pops transports well and can, in a pinch, upset AV12 or even 13. Added to that they both ignore Feel No Pain and they're both cheap (or free!) I couldn't decide between them and took both!

[Spazzola]

Basically everything that can be said has been said, but why not have the option to swap at will before a match? Sure, a tournament won't allow you, but for friendly matches why not have both a PC and a ML model standing by for Tactical Squads? Feeling lucky, pop in the PC. Wanting a more direct punch, ML. Outside of Tacticals, I think it comes down to what you're wanting from the specific unit. I'd rather a 4ML Devastator squad mainly because I have a soft spot for them and 4HB Devastator squads. But I can see the use of a 4PC Devastator squad. Likewise, if you're chucking one of these on a Dread, you have to ask what you are wanting it to do. And if you think the magical winds of change won't blow that glob of plasma back at you :P

[Grey Mage]

Because a PC is 10pts? So youd have to either take the loss or have something to use those points on... and then lists really start shifting.... and Id get upset a little if my opponent had changed several things in his list before the game without writing it down- smacks of cheating, even if the points values balanced out..

[Kronk]

Put me down as not a fan of swapping out weapons when you get to the match.

 

Bring 1 list.

 

Play that list.

[Spazzola]

Put me down as not a fan of swapping out weapons when you get to the match.

 

Bring 1 list.

 

Play that list.

 

I make the assumption that if you make a list, you're locked in. I.e you have a HB in your Tacticals and you come across a Mech list, you're a little disadvantaged. What I was getting at is when you organise the match with your opponent, then you make the choice. So in this case, when organising then you choose something other than the HB. Not one minute before set up "Oh wait, I'm bringing my ML instead".

 

I'm a gamer on a budget, so I carry that across. When I make a decision as to what weapon, it costs me money, so I like to make it a set choice. To me, buying/modelling a marine with a ML and another with a PC costs more, but means I'm not locked into a set list when organising.

[Grey Mage]

Fair enough.