lunchb0x Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 I had an odd issue come up in league game... I had a body guard , as well as 2 guard leaders.... I was told that body guard and its I.C...counted as 2 points... And then each guard leader was an additional 1 point EACH...1 point for body guard, 1 point for leader A, 1 point for leader B. They said it was because of this line : If you take one or more wolf guard models then they count as a single elites unit choice. I argued that they came from the same squad of 20 men...so over all, if all 7 are destroyed it would count as 1 point, not 3 points. I was using the reasoning of : If you include any wolf guard models in your army then they count as a single elites choice. The total number of wolf guard taken and the number of units that they form is unimportant. To me that means, well what it says. Who is correct? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Should be 3 kill points. One for each FOC slot taken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 I had an odd issue come up in league game... I had a body guard , as well as 2 guard leaders.... I was told that body guard and its I.C...counted as 2 points... And then each guard leader was an additional 1 point EACH...1 point for body guard, 1 point for leader A, 1 point for leader B. They said it was because of this line : If you take one or more wolf guard models then they count as a single elites unit choice. I argued that they came from the same squad of 20 men...so over all, if all 7 are destroyed it would count as 1 point, not 3 points. I was using the reasoning of : If you include any wolf guard models in your army then they count as a single elites choice. The total number of wolf guard taken and the number of units that they form is unimportant. To me that means, well what it says. Who is correct? 1 point because of this line alone: If you take one or more wolf guard models then they count as a single elites unit choice. ONE OR MORE wolf guard models counts as a SINGLE elite unit choice. So it doesn't matter if you take one or 20, it still only counts as one elite choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Are they 'pack' leaders or 'battle' leaders? 'Pack' leaders are counted as the same as the squad they are bought for. they are never IC which can join a new squad if the rest of their men are killed, I almost wish it was so but it is not. That whole one kill point per FOC slot is crap because guard platoons are worth more than one KP and a dedicated rhino is a KP too. Perhaps your enemies just need all the help they can get to beat you? G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 As G.A.K. has said, it depends on WHICH Wolf Guard Leader you are talking about..... A Wolf Guard BATTLE Leader is an IC which counts as a KP when killed, no matter who he is with. A Wolf Guard "PACK" Leader is, as has been mentioned, part of the pack he is assigned to....think of it this way....a Wolf Guard Pack Leader is kind of, in a round-a-bout way like a Codex SM Sgt in this respect (please don't beat me up for comparing them). They are part of the pack and therefore DON'T count as a KP when killed....the whole pack would be 1 KP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Yep, 1 point for each WGBL and 1 point for killing every WG in your army, not individualy as a whole. Who is telling you this, someone at Ordo? WG Vrox Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Actually unless its a wulfen you dont get any points for the wolf gaurd. Hes part of the unit hes attached to in every respect.... thats why he can hold objectives for example. Wolf Gaurd Leaders are an HQ choice and unit of their own of course.... and retinues are a unit on their own.... but Pack Leaders are part of their unit in all respects.... including kill points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keercrevlis Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Grey Mage is right if it is a WG Pack Leader he counts as the "Sergant" of a pack so he is apart of the pack. However if he started the game as an IC and joined the squad he is a KP. But as long as he started with the pack he counts as part of it and is not a KP. As far as the bodyguard goes it is a KP too, but if you attach Fen. Wolves to your I.C. they do not count as a KP but are considered a unit together (I.C. + Wolves = 1 KP). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Actually unless its a wulfen you dont get any points for the wolf gaurd. Well, after rereading the very very limited information on KPs, WG are indeed not worth any KP unless there is a specific rule set about FOC in the game design rules. They do not form a unit as a whole so no KP when destroyed. Still want to know who is trying to pull this on ya. WG Vrox. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Mreh. Wolf Guard Pack Leaders =/= Wolf Guard Battle Leaders. Reading comprehension for me. 1 KP for IC, 1 KP for Bodyguard, 1 KP for any squads (attached leaders or no). The extra KP for the Bodyguard is due to their being a retinue unit for the leader. All this based off my memory, which is fallible. I don't recall if the above understanding is from the BRB, a codex, or from the INAT FAQ. I just remember (and play it) that way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunchb0x Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 Sorry I wasnt more clear about this... IN ALL INSTANCES IN WOLFGUARD LEADER IS USED IT IS FOR THE SGT STYLE UPGRADE I am refering to WolfGuard entry in general... Ie Body Guard and Wolf Guard Leaders ( sgts. ) I know the Body Guard + IC = 2kill points But does my ( sgt ) count as an individual one then? And if the SGT doesnt count as a KP, why should the bodyguard as well? Dont ALL wolfguard ( non IC guard ) count as 1 large squad just broken up? Both statements counter each other....bodyguard is 1 point, but wolfguard leaders(sgts) are worth none...? If you take one or more wolf guard models then they count as a single elites unit choice. Doesnt that mean that even if you kill off a bodyguard and IC its only worth the one point for the IC if other Wolfguard are alive on the table? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 difference is that WGLs become part of the squad they are assigned for all intents and purposes and do not possess the IC rule. Though there is some ambiguity, playing it the other way means we can take units of Terminator Bodyguards, then fill the list with tiny squads with Leaders so that the enemy has to table you to get the KP for the Terminators. Or other, more abusive possibilities that I can't conceive of. Best to play it like the above. Heads off all kinds of problems. And if I was unclear in my above, I was not issuing an indictment of your original post, I merely failed to comprehend on my first read through. My fault, not yours. <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 They are one Force Organization Slot not one Squad. Thats the confusion. You get killpoints for killing Squads. Thus: WGPL+Pack = 1 KP. If you got one killpoint per force organization slot then 4 gaurd platoons+junior command squad= 1KP instead of the current 5 KP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacsoy Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Sorry I wasnt more clear about this... IN ALL INSTANCES IN WOLFGUARD LEADER IS USED IT IS FOR THE SGT STYLE UPGRADE I am refering to WolfGuard entry in general... Ie Body Guard and Wolf Guard Leaders ( sgts. ) I know the Body Guard + IC = 2kill points But does my ( sgt ) count as an individual one then? And if the SGT doesnt count as a KP, why should the bodyguard as well? Dont ALL wolfguard ( non IC guard ) count as 1 large squad just broken up? Both statements counter each other....bodyguard is 1 point, but wolfguard leaders(sgts) are worth none...? If you take one or more wolf guard models then they count as a single elites unit choice. Doesnt that mean that even if you kill off a bodyguard and IC its only worth the one point for the IC if other Wolfguard are alive on the table? Those two statements don't counter each other. See, the "every wolf guard count as a whole unit" is for FOC purposes, meaning it doesn't matter if you include 1 or 16 of them (total): you will still be able to take another two dreadnoughts in a stardard battle (3 elite choices). Once you assign one wolf guard as a pack leader (as oppossed to bodyguard) it becomes part of the unit and won't award any kill points apart from those of the unit itself because it is not an independent character (can't leave the unit). Wolf Guard Battle Leaders are not considered wolf guards (they only happen to have that mystifying name, see the official FAQ) but ICs, and as such they award one kill point each, and as per the retinue rules (found in the core rulebook) any retinue attached to any IC (be it wolf guard, or whatever) grants an additional kill point. Some examples: If you kill: - Grey Hunter pack with assigned Wolf Guard Leader ---> 1 kill point - Blood claw pack led by a Wolf Priest ---> 2 kill points (one for the squad, one for the independent character) - Wolf Lord with a 5 wolf guard retinue ---> 2 kill points (one for the lord, one for the retinue) - Wolf Guard Battle Leader's 6-man retinue but leave the Battle Leader alive ---> 1 kill point - Blood Claw pack with assigned Wolf Guard Leader, but you leave the leader alive ---> 0 kill point (the unit still counts as "alive", as there is this last member standing). - Grey Hunter pack and their rhino ---> 2 kill points (one for the squad, one for the rhino). Assuming all of the above is in the same army, you would have occupied 3 HQ slots (Wolf Lord, Wolf Priest, Wolf Guard Battle Leader), 1 Elite slot (13 Wolf Guard: 11 as bodyguards and 2 as pack leaders) and 3 Troop slots. If all of it were to be killed, it would award a total of 10 kill points. As you can see, you can obbey all the rules and they don't overlap each other. It is the confusion between the FOC slots and the actual pack deployment that makes it confusing. As a rule of thumb, 1 FOC slot = 1 pack/squad, but sometimes it is just not true. Kill points are awarded more in the squad sense (not exactly, though, as per the retinue rules) than in the FOC slot sense. An example of this would be a tactical marine unit which would occupy 1 FOC slot, but if deployed as 2 separate 5-men combat squads, it'd grant 2 kill points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Didascoy wins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Damnit, found this one a little late. Anyway, an ale to Disacsoy, who undoubtedly wins this thread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimfoe Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 I concur with Didascoy. The main point is that you DO NOT award an additional kill point for finishing off all the Wolf Guard. If you have a Retinue and several pack leaders, you don't get a bonus point for killing them all off. The Retinue counts as one and the pack leaders simply become part of their squads. If you don't kill each individual pack leader, you don't kill that squad. (can't wait for a new codex. Having to argue this type of nonsense during games is crap :) ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunchb0x Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 Gracias Senors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacsoy Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 can't wait for a new codex. Having to argue this type of nonsense during games is crap :whistling: I agree, this is the most pressing reason to wish for a new codex :D However, you sirs are mistaken... Ale is for everyone! Deer is on me today ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 agree, this is the most pressing reason to wish for a new codex Come now, we are talking about GW here, the kings of ambiguous rules and poor explanations. Are you truly expecting a codex that will not have a whole new set of issues to discuss and debate over. WG Vrox Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimfoe Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 New issues to debate, but hopefully fewer issues as well. I'm not setting my sights too high. I just want fewer debates. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1949872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacsoy Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Come now, we are talking about GW here, the kings of ambiguous rules and poor explanations. Are you truly expecting a codex that will not have a whole new set of issues to discuss and debate over. You are right, we will get our share of ambiguities, blurry arguments, gray zones and rules discussions. What I meant is that we will no longer discuss about how 'outdated rules interact with new rules', and after years of having to defend even the legality of our army choice that will undoubtely be a big relief :woot:' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1950079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 And what fun would it be if we all didn't have something to "self bleeped" about. :D WG Vrox Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/165604-kill-points/#findComment-1950131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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