Roll save before opponent rolls to wound

[IanV]

Just occured to me while reading the rulebook (no I don't do this when I'm bored, I'm preparing to actually play the game :angry: ). Why not take armor saves immediately after your opponent rolls a hit?

 

Logically speaking it makes more sense than the to-hit, to-wound, to-save sequence of rolls. The moment you're hit by a bullet that's when you're armour should save you. When the bullet actually bypasses(un-armored part of your body) or punches through your armor, then that's when you check to see if your natural toughness can save you (or rather the bullet can overcome your natural toughness).

 

And I think this can even work for rending:

 

*Your opponent rolls a hit

*You then roll your armor save

*But since it's a rending weapon, there's a chance that the hit was so focused, so well placed it still punches through your armor. (opponent rolls a six)

 

In terms of probability, it doesn't make a difference (correct me if I'm wrong because I don't know all the special rules yet).-> So why bring this up?

 

1.) Well, if GW is trying to make the game as real as a miniature wargame can be, why not do this (it's more logical)?

 

2.) It can speed up the game.

 

Oh and if this has already been discussed, I'd appreciate being directed to the thread.

 

PS: Is it just me or are the links in the rules questions and answers thread not working?

[eyescrossed]

Believe me, it doesn't speed up the game. Wait for someone who can be bothered posting why and you'll see.

[IanV]

Hmmm, I guess I posted a question whose answer is so obvious to everyone except me. :rolleyes:

Thanks for reading anyway.

 

Now to get back to painting....

[Cadarn]

This is something that used to bug me. Logically, it makes perfect sense to roll for armour before wounds. After all, you have to punch through armour before you punch through flesh.

 

Now consider it not as a logical roleplay excercise, but as a gameplay mechanic. Think how often dice are being passed across from one player to the next. As it stands now, the ownership of the dice in a shooting phase is You (to hit rolls), You (to wound), Them (armour saves). If it worked the other way then it would be You, Them, You.

 

This may seem like a simple thing but it really does slow the game down a lot.

 

Add to that a bit of math and I believe it works out more efficient in the number of dice rolled to roll for wounds first. I don't know the sums and it is too early in the morning, but do some test rolls against different combinations of troop vs troop and you'll see you're rolling a whole heap more dice.

 

I know I used to roll for wounds before armour in 2nd edition. I'm not sure if that is how it was supposed to work, as my memory is a little hazy, or if it was my younger more logical brain saying "but that makes FAR more sense."

 

Now in 5th, there are too many rules which would make this impractical. Rending and Go to Ground are the ones which come to mind.

 

That is my understanding, anyway. Anyone else please feel free to correct me.

[Legatus]

1.) Well, if GW is trying to make the game as real as a miniature wargame can be, why not do this (it's more logical)?

Reality is not really GWs goal, the 40K rules have become more abstract with each edition, even. And it feels better if you as a last step of the process can pick up your dice and see if you can save some of your models.

 

2.) It can speed up the game.

I am not sure how it would do that. On the contrary, the enemy having just rolled for hits could then just pick up all the dice that hit and roll them again for wounds. After that, the player that was hit and wounded would usually pick a number of his own dice and roll the saves. If the defending player would roll immediately after hits, then he would pick his own dice, roll for saves, and then the enemy would also pick a number of his own dice, instead of simply taking all the dice that hit.

[Gurth]

Just occured to me while reading the rulebook (no I don't do this when I'm bored, I'm preparing to actually play the game :P ). Why not take armor saves immediately after your opponent rolls a hit?

That would be the more logical thing to do, which is probably why it isn't part of the Warhammer game mechanics … ;)

 

More seriously, it wouldn't really make a difference, I think. I don't want to figure out the maths, but I think you'll end up with pretty much the same number of wounds in either case.

 

1.) Well, if GW is trying to make the game as real as a miniature wargame can be, why not do this (it's more logical)?

GW isn't trying to do that — 40K has never had rules that model reality better than, say, chess does. It just has more elaborate rules than that game, but 40K doesn't try to be a "realistic" wargame — basing everything on D6 rolls just doesn't allow the kind of resolution needed for any kind of realism, for starters. If you want that, grab a system like Phoenix Command or its SF counterpart, Living Steel instead.

 

2.) It can speed up the game.

Probably won't make much of a difference, and like others have said if you play with only one set of dice it might actually slow it down :)

[Monkeychunks]

I thought there was also a psychological part to it as well, where the player has the last roll to see if he can save his troops.

[Mal]

Maths wise, it wouldn't make a difference, since percentages are calculated through multiplication the order is not important.

 

I also agree that it would be more realistic, however it wouldn't speed up the game, as stated it all comes down to possession of the dice, this way means possession has to change twice instead of once, its a small thing, but when you do it a dozen times a player turn... it all adds up.

[Dudley Nightshade]

I wish I could remember where I read it, but I'm pretty sure it was Pete Haines (after 4th ed. came out) who said that logically it *would* make more sense, but making the save last gives a sense of drama to the flow of the hit/wound/save sequence. I think that's what Monkeychunks is referring to.

[IanV]

Well this thread has certainly gotten along since night.

 

@Cadarn

Yeah, I'm bugged about it too. And no, I have to disagree, this can work with rending(see 1st post) and go to ground. The defending player just has to take his +1 cover save right after his opponent hits, then, if you fail you could imagine your model didn't duck in time, then the opponent rolls to wound. Again, in terms of probability of an unsaved wound (this I wonder at too, saved wound, unsaved wound... a wound is a wound... if it's saved it's not a wound... it just sounds silly) there's no difference.

 

@Legatus

I just think that if you can pass your armor save right after the hit, this saves your opponent the trouble of rolling and if allowed rerolling to wound rolls. That's why I think it'll save time.

 

 

 

Hmmm, the common consensus seems to be that it'll take longer to pass ownership of dice rolls from one player to another and that this negates the time savings by foregoing rolls/rerolls to wound... I'll just have to take your words for it.

 

You all bring up good points such as: the psychological impact (I'm guessing more exciting) of rolling to save your models (MonkeyChunks) and how it feels better to see if you can save your models (Legatus). The drama (Yroc). My counter is, given how random dice is, isn't it already dramatic enough? Going last/second to the last won't matter. Unless of course you've mastered some dice throwing techniques that consistently give you high rolls in which case, I think you're being cheesy, it's supposed to be random.

 

Well thanks all for your inputs. I'll just see how the game plays later on. :D

[Frosty the Pyro]

The dice ownership thing is pretty big, there are people who are pretty voodooish bout their dice. Aditionaly sometimes you dont sit close enouph just go grab the other guys dice for the rolls.

 

As far as the order itself goes (and ignoring dice ownership) and wheather its faster or slower, that depends on which is more likely to "save" For example a terminator hit by a str 2 weapon would make no difference, as each only hurt on one roll (6 for wound, 1 for save). However vs a str 4 weapon it would be faster to do armor first as it reduces more. Those with higher toughness would find it faster to wound first, those with stronger armor find it faster take saves first.

[werewolf_nr]

My counter is, given how random dice is, isn't it already dramatic enough? Going last/second to the last won't matter. Unless of course you've mastered some dice throwing techniques that consistently give you high rolls in which case, I think you're being cheesy, it's supposed to be random.

 

I think the idea is that it interrupts the suspense more than drama. As-is it starts with the defender in suspense while he waits for how bad (hits and wounds) it is gonna be. Then the suspense transfers to the attacker who gets to wonder if his rolling will be countered by good rolling by the defender. Transferring the suspense an additional time would mess with the drama of the game.

 

I do agree that the hit/save/wound setup is more logical though. If you are looking for something a tad more realistic you can check out No-limits, it also has a few other mechanics.

[IanV]

As far as the order itself goes (and ignoring dice ownership) and wheather its faster or slower, that depends on which is more likely to "save" For example a terminator hit by a str 2 weapon would make no difference, as each only hurt on one roll (6 for wound, 1 for save). However vs a str 4 weapon it would be faster to do armor first as it reduces more. Those with higher toughness would find it faster to wound first, those with stronger armor find it faster take saves first.

 

Higher toughness go to-wound first, stronger armor go to-save first. You sir just made an excellent point. So I guess there goes my argument of making the game go faster. It depends on the unit's T and Sv values. I rest my case...

 

@werewolf_nr

Good to know someone agrees that it's more logical too. Not trying to bash the game or anything, it's just I read the rules and was like, "No no no this doesn't make sense..."

 

Ok... Good point too, some (or rather most) people want it that way while some (me) don't care. For now anyway :P . Like I said, I'll see how the game plays.

[Cadarn]

The problem with going to ground is that the owning player chooses to do it AFTER rolls to wound. As such, this can have an impact on whether he chooses to do it or not. Going to ground for the sake of one wound may not be worth it, but for half a dozen wounds it makes it a more appealing prospect. Seeing as going to ground effectively puts the unit out of the fight for the following turn, this is a big decision to make.

 

Of course, the whole going to ground thing is a little unrealistic too. "Hmm, a bullet has just hit me in the face and wounded me. I think I will duck to prevent myself getting hurt." Kinda makes more sense to do that BEFORE someone gets shot. But then back in second ed, cover affected rolls to hit, not armour saves, so it would make sense.

 

Better, faster gameplay but less realism. That's the payoff I guess.

[IanV]

Ooooh, ok. I see.... Sweet free gameplay tips.

[Praeger]

You also cant think of "too hit" as actually hitting, as "to wound" as actually wounding etc.

 

Better to think about it in much broader terms like this:

 

"to hit" - this roll determines the abiltity of the unit to actually draw a bead on the target. They might have "LOS" to the target and believe to be in range due to taergeters on their weapons, but the enemy is not sitting still. They are moving around, hugging the ground, running across open terrain. This roll really determines how much fire power you are shooting out and if any of it will even get near the enemy and if your weapon can even fire at all (out of ammo, barrel overheated, (Also - when rolling the X number of die, think that in reality much more is being fired. Rapid fire weapons unloading full clips faster then uzis, heavy bolters firing maybe 50 rounds or more on rapid fire spraying the area. You hit with 1 die out of 3, your really hitting with maybe 20 rounds)

 

"to wound" - this roll is more of a lump sum between actually hitting the target in a weak spot, and getting through the armour. You have fired off numerous rounds under "to hit" but have you hit the helmet, the backpack or the armour on the enemy itself? This is what this roll really shows. You have aimed well, but did you hit something that can be wounded or did you hit nothing but the hair on their heads? This again can make sense from a logical point when looking at the weapons fired - a bolter is S4 and fires a minio rocket, much more likly that a small fragment will be able to hit something vital while a S3 lasgun is only going to hit a singular spot. In reality the lasgun probably could do more damage as it is a beam of light whiole the bolter is a shell fragment - but when you imagine the "to wound" as actually hitting something vital it makes more sense as the bolter would ofcouse have a higher chance due to its explosive nature to hit something important. Same as a lascannon being S9 - id hate to even be within a meter of a blast from on of those, let alone a few inches!!!

 

"to save" - this isnt waht it sounds like at all. Most people assume its your armour saving you, and partialy this is right, but the majority of this save is actually to do with anatomy. The rounds have hit the area near you (to hit), they have hit something vital to you (to wound), but now we find out if it was really just a flesh wound, did the armour bounce the shot off, did you duck at the last second, and more importantly - did the round hit anything vital? Again, a Lasgun to hit has fired numerous beams near the enemy, one shot has hit something, now we find out if it was vital, did it put him out of action? did it just scar him? did it just rip through his bag? did it rip his heart out? The "to save" roll represents all of this.

 

And lastly we come to the other rolls - leadership, medi equipment etc.

 

Again all of these can be thought about to have greater meaning - when they fail thier saves, they are not nessiasrily killed. They might have been wounded, they might no longer have a gun to fight with (the to save roll represented their gun exploding in their hands from your "to wound" roll that actually hit something vital, their gun) and might just not be able to fight anymore. Leadership now represents the commander being able to take stock of the limited intel he has and working out if he can keep fighting with his depleted numbers. Started with 10 guard, lost 6 due to incoming heavy weapons fire blastng the area, 1 dead, 3 wounded (1 critical) and 2 with destroyed weapons and packs - can we keep fighting or do we withdrawl?

 

Medi equipment saves are shown even better with this in mind - the wound just caused a flesh wound, now it can be healed.

 

This whole way of thinking actually also helps to show why someone (guard) would even though having much better armour then we would have today, can still be taken out so quickly - they are not nessiaisrily dieing but are having their valuable weaponry destroyed, the armour is saving them, but they still cant keep fighting - while models like Storm troopers with only a slighting better save can keep going - their weapons ammo is kept in safer locations, their training and on hand medical supplies let them ignore flesh wounds etc etc.

 

Hope that all makes sense :)

[WarpSpawn]

Praeger makes a lot of sense here.

 

The imporant thing to remember (for me at least) is that the wound/save thing is not representative of the chrnological order of the event. It's not like all shots initially ignore the armour, then those shots that wound are subsequently sucked out by the armour. It's more a case of efficiency (as well as the dramatic thing discussed earlier). Why bother taking saves against a hit that would not cause an incapacitating wound? It would add nothing to the game to do so.

 

It is quite possible that a Space Marine could finish a battle with his armour riddled with holes, but none of them in places that would have prevented him continuing the battle.

[MattVucu]

rending would not work in this order

[WarpSpawn]

I guess in theory, you could still roll to wound with rending weapons and ignore the previous saved result, if the rending rule actually takes effect.

 

Would slow the proceedings a little and make things needlessly more complex though, once again without adding anything to the game.

[DevianID]

Actually the problem with 5th edition is the wound allocation system. If you roll to hit, then save, then roll to wound, you have to allocate MANY more attacks to the squad. Then, you have to roll each group seperate to save and to wound. Thus, not only does it take longer, but it takes the already bad rule of putting all the ap2 wounds on a few models and the ap 5 wounds on the guys you like worse.

 

IE, say marines take 12 bolter hits, 2 plasma hits, and a las cannon hit, on their 5 man combat squad with flamer and power fist. They would be able to put both plasma and the las cannon on the flamer model, and 3 bolter hits on everything else. Then, after to-wound rolls, the flamer still has 3 ap 2 wounds on him, but the rest of the squad only has 6 bolter wounds each. It gets REALLY silly with squads like nob bikers, as you then have to roll up to 11 sets of saves and wounds.

 

I advocated changing the rules to go 'Hit, cover save, wound, armor/invuln save.' Basicly, cover (something determined on a squad level that applies equally to the entire squad) stops attackers from hitting you, and armor helps after they hit you. Both saves would apply though, thus marines in cover are safer versus incoming small arms than marines in the open, but Orks, who derive a huge benefit from cover currently, dont gain much of an advantage of getting 2 saves. In one stroke it helps rebalance the shooting game, but sadly it does nothing for close combat.

[WarpSpawn]

I agree that cover saves taken before rolling to wound makes sense, though I think the saves would have to become universally worse and/or harder to come by, otherwise some units would become almost invincible as an average of 50% of shots go straight out the window. I personally think the to-hit modifiers are far superior to the current cover save system, as this much better represents the reduced accuracy of some situations, whilst not typically being overpowered when combined with armour saves. Even to modify the balistic skill of the firer (to a minimum of 1 so never worse that 6+), rather than the dice roll, would be preferable.

 

I know Space Marines probably look down upon those who cower in cover but, as it stands, even those such as scouts (who you would expect to sneak around to some degree) have little incentive to use basic cover. This strikes me as more than a little absurd.