Independent Character and Retinue

[Grendelsbane]

Ok...I am playing my marines against some demon hunters. He's got a Chapter Master with a retinue. He assaults and says that the Chapter Master is not an independent character because he's with a retinue. So no need to be base to base and he's basically just like a sgt.

 

He points to the following:

 

Independent Character: Unless accompanied by his retinue the Grey knight is an independent character and follows all of the rules for characters in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

 

His reasoning is that because he's accompanied by his retinue he is no longer an independent character. I was always under the impression that the "hero" is a independent character retinue or not. That he had to be in base to base contact to do damage and of course to receive damage. Who is right?

 

Also, the Vanguard...can they take two plasma pistols and therefore shoot twice?

[Cedric]

Grey Knights benefits from older rules in their codex. Their GM is protected in the retinue, so you would be wrong.

 

Vanguard models can buy 2 plasma pistols each, but it is a complete waste since they can only fire a single ranged weapon in the shooting phase.

[Legatus]

The rules for "Retinues" are explained on page 48 of teh rulebook. Whenever an 'Independent Character' has a special unit accompanying him which he cannot leave during the game, then that unit acts as his retinue and teh IC only counts as an upgrade character for that unit. He can then not specifically be targeted in close combat, can make attacks when being within 2" of a nother model in contact, and wounds against the unit are distributed to him just like he was a regular member of the unit.

 

The unit that is bought for a Grand Master acts as a retinue, as he cannot leave it during the game. Space Marine command squads and honour guard on the other hand are not retinues, since even though they can only be bought if a certain character is present, they do not have to move with that character during the game, and teh IC is still free to join other units instead.

[Grendelsbane]

So if he takes 5 wounds (unsaved) he can put 3 on a retinue and 2 on the grandmaster so he has one retinue guy left?

 

Though now that I think about it all his Grey Knight termies should have died, even the grandmaster, because he got whacked with a thunderhammer.

[JamesI]

So if he takes 5 wounds (unsaved) he can put 3 on a retinue and 2 on the grandmaster so he has one retinue guy left?

 

Though now that I think about it all his Grey Knight termies should have died, even the grandmaster, because he got whacked with a thunderhammer.

wound allocation occurs before saves, so its possible one member of the retinue would survive while the rest was whacked. Now, he couldn't put 2 on the master withotu putting one on each member of the retinue first. But every member of that retinue has an invulnerable save so some could survive.

[Grendelsbane]

^No, the 5 wounds were the result after he failed his invulnerables. The squad had a master and 4 grey knight termies. So everyone in the squad had taken a wound at that point. He put 2 wounds on the master before putting the 3 on the retinue. He did that specifically so he could save at least one terminator. But if, as you say, he was supposed to allocate 4 wounds to the retinue first then take one on the grandmaster then all of them should have died. There was only 5 models and each was successfully hit and wounded by a thunderhammer. So that combat should have ended at that point and not went to a 2nd round thereby saving me 3 terminators.

 

As a side note, the new invulnerable granted by the storm shield came as a nasty surprise to the Grey knights and the fact that Vulkan mastercrafted the thunderhammer almost made him cry. :angry:

[Legatus]

So if he takes 5 wounds (unsaved) he can put 3 on a retinue and 2 on the grandmaster so he has one retinue guy left?

I don't know how many models the unit had. Every model of the unit has to have one wound allocated to it before you can start putting a second wound on a model. If the unit was just 3 retinue and the Grand Master then 3 on the retinue and 2 on the Grand Master would work. If it was 4 plus the Grand Master then every model gets a single wound allocated to it. Or was only a single retinue model left? In that case, 3 on that model and 2 on th egrand Master would be ok also.

[Grendelsbane]

So if he takes 5 wounds (unsaved) he can put 3 on a retinue and 2 on the grandmaster so he has one retinue guy left?

I don't know how many models the unit had. Every model of the unit has to have one wound allocated to it before you can start putting a second wound on a model. If the unit was just 3 retinue and the Grand Master then 3 on the retinue and 2 on the Grand Master would work. If it was 4 plus the Grand Master then every model gets a single wound allocated to it. Or was only a single retinue model left? In that case, 3 on that model and 2 on th egrand Master would be ok also.

 

He had one master and 4 Grey Knight terminators. The grey knight squad failed 5 invulnerable saves from an assault terminator squad of 5. So as soon as he allocated an unsaved wound to a model...then that model should have died regardless of wounds because the thunderhammer doubled the strength of the assault terminator which is double the toughness of the grey knights, right?

[Legatus]

As JamesI stated, you normally allocate wounds to models or model types before you make any saves. Wound allocation is explained on page 25 in the rulebook. It is for shooting, but the close combat sules refer back to these rules that were already explained earlier in the book.

 

Assault Terminators with Thunderhammers attack with Strength 8, which is double a Marine's Toughness of 4. That has no further implication on models that have only 1 wound anyway. It can automatically kill a model with more wounds, though, such as a Grand Master. Saves can still be taken against double strength wounds, as far as they are allowed (Thunderhammers ignore armour, mit AP3 missiles with Strength 8 would still allow a terminator it's 2+ armour save).

[chaplain_quint]

He had one master and 4 Grey Knight terminators. The grey knight squad failed 5 invulnerable saves from an assault terminator squad of 5. So as soon as he allocated an unsaved wound to a model...then that model should have died regardless of wounds because the thunderhammer doubled the strength of the assault terminator which is double the toughness of the grey knights, right?

 

all true, except that wound allocation happens before taking saves. so if 5 wounds are caused then 1 wound is allocated to each member in the squad, after that you take the saves.