Dual Redeemers in a small battle ...

[jeffersonian000]

What is the feasibility of running two Land Raider Redeemers in a small (1000pt) battle force as the only form of transport; i.e., two full Tactical squads, an HQ, and two Redeemers, all at 1000pts?

 

Or would it be best to pair up one Redeemer with a standard Phobos pattern, to retain a long range attack while the Redeemer closes?

 

To illustrate, I’m thinking on using a Librarian with Gate of Infinity to move one tactical squad while the other squad rides in the one redeemer and the Phobos acts as a roving anti-tank sniper. Or I’m thinking about ‘Raider Rushing two Redeemers across to board to get it stuck in quick while carrying the same load out and using the same Gate tactic.

 

Any thoughts/experiences with this tactic?

 

Thank you!

 

SJ

[Bannus]

You have half of your points tied up into two models - that isn't a good thing.

[Captain Malachi]

I dunno Bannus, I mean think about it, do you really think you could handle two AV14 models at 1k points? It'd be hard, though its effectiveness really depends on how much anti-tank your local game has. I say give it a go and see if it works.

[Frosty the Pyro]

What is the feasibility of running two Land Raider Redeemers in a small (1000pt) battle force as the only form of transport; i.e., two full Tactical squads, an HQ, and two Redeemers, all at 1000pts?

 

Or would it be best to pair up one Redeemer with a standard Phobos pattern, to retain a long range attack while the Redeemer closes?

 

To illustrate, I’m thinking on using a Librarian with Gate of Infinity to move one tactical squad while the other squad rides in the one redeemer and the Phobos acts as a roving anti-tank sniper. Or I’m thinking about ‘Raider Rushing two Redeemers across to board to get it stuck in quick while carrying the same load out and using the same Gate tactic.

 

Any thoughts/experiences with this tactic?

 

Thank you!

 

SJ

 

 

I duno, seams to be betting an awefull lot on the fact that your enemy doesnt have monstrous creatures. It will probly do fine against an ork, space marines, or eldar, assuming they arnt melta/lance/las happy versions (which is not too unlikely). But nids at 1000 are almost always going to have at least 2 or 3 monstrous critters (heck if they are being asses they can feild 4 in a 500 pt game), guards can (and oftend do) put las anywhere and everywhere, SoB cary melta like its going out of style, and tua are going to have at least some railguns, and necrons can glance you to death with their basic troop guns.

[jeffersonian000]

To date, I’ve only ever lost one Land Raider in a game; it was a Crusader that got popped by a tricked out ‘Fex. Railguns and Lances need a 4 to glance, a 5-6 to Penetrated, and another 5-6 to pop a ‘Raider, while meltas still need to survive to within its sweet spot to get a extra die which is no guarantee that a 7+ will be rolled. Assault Cannons need to roll a 6 and then another 6 to penetrate, let alone the 5-6 need to pop. So, I’m not worried about Anti-Tank; it can be dealt with and/or weathered out. However, I’ve never used a Redeemer.

 

An upcoming game I have is against Blood Angels. The player most likely will field an all Lascannon Predator, a three weapon Land Speeder, a DC Furioso Dread, Dante, Corbulo, Honour Guard, 2 Assault Squads, and a minimal DC Squad.

 

I lack specific models in my collection, yet my three Land Raiders are magnetized and can be fielded in any combination of the three ‘Raider types. I have to get a bit creative to put 7 bolters in each of my Tactical Squads, forcing me to take a special weapon and a heavy if I actually want to field a full 10 Marine squad (my Marines are a 2nd Ed Legion of the Damned army). Normally I play Grey Knights (Water Warrior), yet this time I want to try something a little different, and the S6, AP3 flamer template a Redeemer can drop looks like a fun change of pace.

 

SJ

[Void Master]

Feasible? Yes. Two AV14 vehicles are nigh-indestructible in games of 1k due to apparent lack of anti-tank weaponry. With multi-meltas they can quickly get in close and personal, have the cargo chop up everything there is and mow down anything that has power armour or worse.

 

Would I do it. CERTAINLY NOT. Why? think about it. How much fun is that game going to be for your opponent? They bring a balanced list to play a battle of the minds rather than a face-off of two über-units, and in return they get a slap in the face with the underlying message "serves you well for not powergaming"... Is that in line with what you expect from a hobby? For me, the answer to that is a clear and resounding NO. Land raiders belong into games of 1000pts or more. Think about it - it doesn't even make sense from a fluff perspective most of the time. I mean, which captain is going to send his lads to take the 'raider for a spin because "petrol is cheap and we've got too much ammo anyway". A force that size is likely to be a scouting force, and as a scouting vehicle a landraider is worse than utterly useless because the element of surprise falls prey to the motor of a landraider. And taking TWO land raiders is even worse... the only thing I would think if an opponent fielded those against me would more or less make me rather disinclined to even unpack my models, much less play with them and let alone talk to the guy who does that to my hobby... my advice - don't. If you play in a different gaming environment where powergaming is equal to the holy grail of tabletop gaming, then go for it, but either way I don't understand why you would do it.

[Kadaeux]

Possible yes.

 

In the spirit of a fair and fun game? Unless your opponent is fielding a Baneblade then Hell no.

[DarKHaZZ13]

tbf

i barley can justify the one landraider in 1k points

let alone two

[Fintan]

Cheesy as hell, don't do it.

[jeffersonian000]

Personally, I’m not a big fan of 1000pt or lower games, again due to a model restriction. I have Land Raiders, sorry that that bothers peoples. I do not have Rhinos, or other Rhino variants, nor Land Speeders or Dreadnoughts. I do have a small force of Grey Knights and a collection of Legion of Damned with weapons modeled that are not fully acceptable in the current codex without being flexible in how I view a 2nd Ed bolt pistol versus a current edition boltgun, or counting the multiple power axes and fists as close combat weapons, etc. I also have quite a few of Sisters of Battle, all foot sloggers, and all still configured for 2nd Ed play. So my options are few, yet I’m still presented with the ability to mix and match forces, if the point total is a bit higher than 1000.

 

That said, what I’m looking for is advice on whether or not it’s beneficial to field two Redeemers, or one Redeemer supported by a standard Land Raider. Telling me not to field any Land Raiders is counter productive, as it does not address what I asked in my original post. If I wanted my army reviewed, I would have posted it in a different section. What I want to discuss is the tactics, not the composition.

 

So, what I understand from those that did respond with constructive advice is that ‘Raider Rushing with two Redeemers is a more valid option that rushing with the Redeemer with the Phobos holding back to provide covering fire. Is that correct? I will most likely be adding Multi-Meltas to one or both.

 

SJ

[teh_perfesser]

Raider Rushing with two Redeemers is a more valid option that rushing with the Redeemer with the Phobos holding back to provide covering fire.

Yes.

 

The loadout isn't as critical as ensuring that the two raiders stay in support of each other and transported squads, since you won't be able to afford many (any) supporting elements. Consider loading the Tacticals in Rhinos (well, you'll have to either take a 5 man Tactical or an unmounted scout squad to make the points) to increase the elements in the army.

 

Two LRs in a 1000 points sounds like a beast, but every army can be tooled to beat it and a few armies can beat it with basic balanced lists.

[jeffersonian000]

Cool. I'll try out two Redeemers in support range of each other in my next game, and post feedback on how they pan out tactically.

 

Thank you!

 

SJ

[General Retreat]

I don't think the outcome is much in question there bud. :lol: Two Redeemers is just murderous in any game, much less 1000 points.

 

Although it would be funny if one of your opponents reads this thread and takes AB w/ MM x 3 (150 pts) for each FA slot.

 

Did you know if you Flamestorm an Attack Bike, you only get one hit? And since it won't instakill, that one wound bike has a darn good chance of making the LR pay for it. 9 of them (450 points, still enough to bring troops) would make a mockery of your list. Of course, chances are, you won't run into that.

[jeffersonian000]

My only real concern is the loss of range by replacing the 48" lascannons and 36' heavy bolters with 24' assault cannon and 7' flame templates. I would love for my opponent to be any to table me, as it makes the game a challenge for both of us. As it stands now, I will try out the tactic and see how it works. My preference is for range and maneuver over rush and assault, hence the request for advice. Again, telling me not to do it does not address the issues of tactics when using it.

 

SJ

[jeffersonian000]

Okay, I finally played a game with two Redeemers; however, my opponent wanted to try out some of his new Blood Angels' units and asked for a 2500pt game instead of the planned 1000pt game.

 

I decide to go with a combined Ordo theme and staid with my original two Tactical Squads lead by a Librarian [now an Epistolary and the head of a “Deathwatch” strike team], added a Crusader, allied Sisters of Battle [one 15 lady Battle Sister Squad, one 9 lady Seraphim Squad, and one Flying Nun Canoness], allied Grey Knights [one 5 man Elite GKT Squad with dual psycannons and one 9 man PAGK Fast Squad with dual Incinerators], and extra amour on all three Land Raiders for an even 2500pts.

 

He had Dante, Lemartes, a 5 man Honour Guard with Rhino, two Death Company Furioso Dreads, one 5 man Terminator Squad, two 10 man Assault Squads, a 3 man Bike Squadron, two 2 speeder Land Speeder Squadrons, and an all Lascannon Predator.

 

We played a Spear Head/Annihilation scenario on a table with evenly distributed blocking terrain with nothing difficult, dangerous, or impassible, with the Blood Angels going first; he chose the left hand quarter and deployed everything except his Terminators. I deployed only my three Land Raiders with the Sisters in the Crusader in the middle of my deployment area behind some solid bunkers we decided where AV14 buildings, the Tacticals in the Redeemers place on either side of the Crusader with the Librarian attached to one of the Squads, and left all of my Jump Infantry and Knights in reserve.

 

Turn 1

The Angels failed their engine roll for the Rhino, them moved everything; he had only one unit with the range to hit any of my guys, and that was the Predator, which he had to move about 5” to the side to get a shot at the left most Redeemer [the one with my Librarian in it]. His shot glanced and he rolled a 1 on the damage charge.

 

I moved all three ‘Raiders to the right, bringing them closer to the Angels. With no one in Line of Sight within 24” after a 12” move and with no targets to shoot, nor enemies to assault, I ended my turn early.

 

Turn 2

He failed his reserve roll and his engine roll for the Rhino, and moved his remaining units towards me, with one of his Assault squads bunkering down behind a solid piece of blocking terrain to my right. Again, the Predator was the only unit in range, which targeted my Crusader this time with 2 hits and no penetration.

 

I made all of my reserve rolls and started dropping units on to the field. There was only one non-congested area to land, which was the right-hand quarter on the Angels’ side of the board. I placed my Brother-Captain in the middle of the open area, he drifter 11” to the left and ended up just barely on the table. Thankfully his crew numbered only 4, and they easily filled the area around him that was still on the table. My Justicar drifted right in between my GKT’s and his Bikers, and my Sisters planted themselves behind yet another blockhouse, blocking enemy Line of Sight to them. I again moved my ‘Raiders over 6”, with my Librarian’s ride crossing behind the other two, bring all three into weapons range of the Angel forces, yet still outside of Template range. I destroyed one Land Speeder Squadron out right in one full volley of Assault Cannon and Multi-Melta fire from one Redeemer, yet the other Redeemer and the Crusader both either failed to penetrate or rolled 1’s on the damage chart; very disappointing. My GKT’s and PAGK’s did fairly well with taking out the Angel Bikers with range fire while my Seraphim and Canoness maneuvered to eventually engage his other Assault Squad.

 

Turn 3

He fails his reserve roll again, and finally just decides to move the Rhino 12” and deploys his Honour Guard to within 2” of both Dante and Lemartes, who until this point were hidden from view; his remaining Speeders remain in place, while his Dreads move up into weapons range. His rolls for penetration are much like my own in that he either fails to glance/pen or rolls low on the damage chart [stun/shaken results mean nothing to my ‘Raiders]. As I am still outside of his charge range, his turn ends with frustration.

 

I move one Redeemer away from his nearest Dread and deploy its Tactical Squad to the front, between the ‘Raider and the Angel units. The second Redeemer slides to the side towards his hidden Assault Squad and pops out the Librarian and his Tacticals with just barely enough room to fit between the ‘Raider and the enemy while still keeping one Firestorm Cannon clear. The Crusader stays put while the Sisters come out for some Divine Guidance goodness. I attack the Left-hand Assault Squad with my GK’s and Seraphim, to only minor effect. The left most Redeemer is ineffective against the nearby Dreadnought, while the Tacticals [a failure on my part] have no weapons capable of harming a Dread outside of Close Combat. The Crusader and Sisters dump 32 hits into the Angels’ Command Squad no effect.

 

Now come the part I’ve been waiting for: the Firestorm Cannon on the right most Redeemer finally fires, covering 9 of his 10 Assault Marines, wounding 8! My Tacticals and Librarian dump 24 bolter shots and one meltagun into his 2 remaining guys; between misses and saves, both Angels survive the conventional firepower.

 

My Left Tacticals assault his nearest Dreadnought, not because they can take him, but because I want to tar-pit him. I do roll a 6 for a melta bomb, and fail to glance/pen; he takes out 3, but I pass the post phase leadership test with ‘snake eyes.’

 

Turn 4

His Terminators arrive, he moves his Left-most Assault Squad closer, yet still outside of charge range, and everything else stays put. Everybody fires to either no or little effect. In the middle, Dante’s crew assaults my Sisters, killing 5 outright with just his attacks alone [no one else on his or my side hit]; my Sister do not break as they intone to soothing words of St. Lucius. On the left, his engaged Dread swings and takes out 2 more Tacticals; I fail to hit with my lone melta bomb attack. On the right, his 2 remaining Assault Marines assault, taking out one of my mooks, yet both surviving my horrid force weapon and power fist wounding rolls.

 

All moves I make are to get a little closer with my GK’s and to move my Crusader back a bit from Dante. Combined GK fire killed 4 of the Angel Terminators, while a ‘Hail Mary’ bolt pistol shot from my Canoness took out the Terminator Sergeant. All of my vehicle fire again remained ineffective. On the assault front, my Seraphim engage his Left-most Assault Squad in an attempt to tar-pit; my forlorn Tacticals finally pop their Dread, surviving his destruction yet still losing man to the Dreads flailing arms just before the melta bomb slag’d the beast. They actually break and run to the nearest cover; i.e., a straight 5” move to the side access hatch on the Crusader.

 

Turn 5

He keeps everything were they were at except for that last lone Dreadnought, and goes to firing; glancing the Crusader with a 6 immobilized it, while everything else seemed to bounce off the Redeemers. That is unit the last lone Dread popped my Right-most Redeemer with his trusty meltagun. The on going assault between his Assault Marines and my Seraphim reduced down to his sergeant versus my vet superior and single flamer-girl, both of which the sergeant put down with his power sword just before my Canoness arrived and missed every single one of her Bless Weapon attacks. In addition, if it wasn’t for a lucky wound inflicted by the Librarian, and then another by the Sergeant with his apparently faulty power fist, I would have lost yet another round of “9 Tacticals vs. 2 Assaulties”. This was really the only bright point as Dante popped the Crusader.

 

It was at this point that my opponent realized that he had completely forgotten that he had a Predator in his army, which could have been firing at my GK’s for the past 3 turns; as all the fighting was happening on my side of the board, he had simply over looked the Predator due to his reaching over it to maneuver and measure on my half of the table.

 

I advised him that I had forgotten about it too, and then quickly moved my GK’s behind blocking terrain, as there were no longer any enemies they could harm in range. I fired my second Firestorm of the evening at Dante’s crew, frying all 5 of his Honour Guard, and leaving Dante and Lemartes alive [Damn it!] yet wounded. I also was finally able to clear out his remaining Speeders with 2 penetrating and 3 glancing hits from the Redeemer’s Assault Cannons and Multi-melta. My Right-most Tacticals and the Librarian failed to harm the Dreadnought in their midst. My Canoness did finally put down her rabid Assailant by dealing what at this point to me was an accidentally successful wound based on all of my previously unsuccessful attempts to wound with power weapon throughout the game.

 

Turn 6

Well, he decide to hide his Rhino behind some terrain, move his re-claimed Predator to a newer potential firing position, and left his remaining Dread in place for a future assault on the nearby Tacticals + Librarian. His fire was ineffective, yet he was able to wipe out the remaining Tacticals and Librarian, while they were unable to even dent the Dreads bloody chassis.

 

All I moved was my Canoness, with the hopes of doing a little tank hunting. I split my remaining Redeemer’s fire between Dante [and Lemartes] and the last lone Dread, slaying of both HQ’s and crippling the Dread’s right arm [bye-bye, melta!]. On her charge, Mission Canoness Sara Gladys Victoria failed to stop her last foe, the luckless Blood Angel Rhino.

 

A failed roll for a 7th turn ended the game with 6 units lost on my side and 11 units lost of his, giving my a firm win.

 

In review, the Firestorm Cannons are murder against MEQ’s, yet the loss of range did not fit my play style. I’m sure that if we had played at 1000pts, it would have been a different story, with the Redeemers effectively rolling through his Assault Marines like a powered scythe. I was happy to see that he could kill two of my ‘Raiders, with a fair chance at killing the third, so I’m not too put out by the way the game flowed. Effectively, he feared my ‘Raiders while feared his Dreadnoughts.

 

On another note, Assault Cannons are okay at anti-tank, and while meltas seems to the queens of the battlefield, I’ll stick with Lascannons in the future.

 

SJ

[jeffersonian000]

Further experimenting at a smaller army list total (1500pts this time) has shown me a flaw in the Dual-Redeemer build, which I expected yet wanted to see if I could compensate for it. I won't post another long battle report, but suffice it to say two Redeemers in a list forces you to close the gap between you and the enemy, placing your tanks into counter fire range of melta weapons and dedicated anti-armour units long before you can engage targets with the Firestorm Cannons. Even moving 12" each turn to reduce assault attempts to hit do not lessen the likelihood of losing a Redeemer to close combat, which you court just by taking a Redeemer in the first place. Taking two means that one may survive and that is about all there is to them. I'll give it a few more games to see if I can derive a more survivable result before giving up the tactic.

 

To those that stated that it was unfair, I can only say that you are far from being correct. I've found that two Redeemers working together are more balanced from my opponent's point of view than going up against two standard Land Raiders or even two Crusaders. In point of fact, I would say that Redeemers are worth the 10pt reduction from a Crusader’s and a Phobos' 250pt cost.

 

I'll let everyone know how things work out after another set of games. Thanks!

 

SJ

[deadfuse]

From your battle report, it seems your style is to hang back while shooting the crap out of the enemy, and maneuver around his attempts to engage you. So the longer range of the Phobos (or even crusader) will serve you far better.

[jeffersonian000]

Yep, that is my normal style of play. However, with the Redeemers, I've been challenging myself to get up into knife-fighting range as soon as possible. I'm now looking at not fielding two redeemers, but one Redeemer and a pair of Phobos' in larger games, or one of each in a smaller game just to see if I get a better synergy of forces.

 

To restate, I've experience an issue with Redeemers having too short of a combat range to supply effective support to each other without risking both to dedicated anti-tank units, be they close or ranged. This may be different at a smaller scale, such as in a city fight scenario or in 1000pt games (which I still haven't had a chance to try the original dual-Redeemer set up).

 

SJ

[Fintan]

You can't say that playing two redeemers in a 1000pt battle isn't a snide move until you actually do it.

[jeffersonian000]

From what I'm seeing, two Redeemers in a small list is actually better for my opponent than for me, due to the need to close. However, I should have some more data shortly.

 

SJ

[jeffersonian000]

Update: Played a 1500pt game versus Tau on a 4'x4' table with terrain set up to resemble a ruined city. Lots of Ruins, tons of cover, very few lanes of fire. I played my standard test list of 2 full tac squads, librarian, and 2 Redeemers (1000pt core) with an extra God-Hammer LR and a squad of PAGK attached to the Librarian to fill out the remaining points.

 

He played 2 Rail-heads, 2 broadsides, 2 fishs' of fury squads, a stealth squad, and a Crisis HQ with retinue. Lots of denied shooting and marker lights gallor.

 

It was Spearhead/Capture & Control. He when first and wrecked one of my Redeemers right off the bat, I went second and pretty much did nothing much other than close and fire to little or no effect. By the end turn five, I had no mobile 'Raiders, yet my objective was still covered and the "Greater Good" was no where near being able to force anything other than a draw. Turn 6 led to the loss of 1 devil fish with all hands due the a melta hit while running flat out. Turn 7 saw absolutely no change in status between either army.

 

Conclusion: The Redeemers failed to get in close before getting wrecked or going immobile. The God-Hammer and my 2 missile launchers were the only weapons I had that could get an attack in on more than one turn. I had no way of getting within assault range, and he had no desire to get into close/bolter range of me.

 

I'll be trying for another set of games at 1000pts to see if the concept works. So far, the Redeemers have done okay, with one dying each game yet the other more than making back its points if I can actually get it across the board.

 

SJ