Brother Tual Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 My 'local' tournament scene is one that I normally do rather well in - but, as of late, a good portion of lists doing well at tournaments have been heavily mechanised with every unit having a transport of some type and I am finding it harder to secure victory as my style and list have largely been reliant on out manovreing my opponent and destroying them through superior local force - My problem with a mech list and destroying it is not so much my inability to know which transports to target, but to destroy transports reliably and then destroy the target unit inside - I am looking for tactics on the destruction of both a transport and the unit inside in rapid order - allocating multiple units is ok but not 50% of my force subject unto one unit per turn - The new vehicle damage rule makes trapping a unit inside a wreck rather difficult but has anyone here been able to apply this tactic in a reliable fashion and how so? I dont want answers like - shoot missiles at it - that is obvious - I am more looking for combinations that are effective in destroying the unit inside a transport rather than JUST the transport and the method of applying desired units - Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 From a purely theoretical viewpoint :D Terminators with Cyclones- have the ability to move and fire missile launchers on the move, storm bolters good at taking out infantry. Bit pricy though. Bikes- the mobility to chase down transports, with an attack bike and meltagun upgrade easily take out tanks. Charging most units with a bike squad will not kill them but tie them up. You can then charge in with a killier unit to finish them off. If you take a Captain on a bike, you've got your killier unit and you can take more bikes as well. Khan and Outflanking could also be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted April 13, 2009 Author Share Posted April 13, 2009 cheers buddy - Thanks for the quick reply - Termies are great - but they cant split fire - it would be great if you could though - as for the busting open, they are golden... Bikes - they are perfect - they have the speed and options to do the job - I am looking at scout bikers as they can both infiltrate AND scout so I can see where the transports are and deploy and move accordingly - the multiple str 6 grenade launchers are looking pretty for rear armour shots too - And given the first turn - a meltabomb or powerfist could seal the deal (with auto hits) and either denying the ability to pile out (as you block the exits with large bases!) or charge the squad should the str 6 onslaught break the transport in the shooting phase - destroying a unit + transport before the game starts for your opponent is going to leave a bitter taste - I am also looking at LSS with 5 scouts - similar abilities to the bikes but retaining the ability to get in a first turn charge but more so to support a unit of scout bikers in a charge with the -2 LD check.. I want it to be a quick death - I am interested to see what others have (did you know that I am building a scout biker + termy list? or was that just a coincidence?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 (did you know that I am building a scout biker + termy list? or was that just a coincidence?) Well, I'm not a Codicier for nothing :D If you're going to play scout bikers + termies, what troops are you looking at using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissah Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I use a Bike squad of 6 men with 2 melta's and the Sarge with Power Fist and an Attack Bike with a multi melta to go and hunt some armour. It works pretty good for me only problem is they become a target right from the start and especially when me opponent seen what they can do to him, the took out several Defilers, Predators and Rhino's ^_^ When they really fail at taking out a transport they are always backed up by two Speeders with Assaultcanon they do the trick aswell took out two Chimeras one game when the Bikes went after the Leman Russes :D The Vanguards and 2 Tac squads in Rhino's will do the rest and go after the inf :D Anyway to keep it short I say go for bikes with lots of melta to go hunting :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted April 13, 2009 Author Share Posted April 13, 2009 Well, I'm not a Codicier for nothing You scare me sometimes... If you're going to play scout bikers + termies, what troops are you looking at using? scouts... either in LSS, on foot, or snipers... My games with my current lists have seen them win me games more often than not and I am getting rather good with little tricks and keeping them alive.. Bikers are on the list - A captain on bike will free up my fast attack spots (LSS chew through them) and give me a nice scoring unit - Bikes and termies... looking good so far - Vissah - Th hammer vanguard could do ok - can they all have melta bombs? heroic intervention on a tank seems more than viable.. probably an expensive way of doing it but when you look at a unit of bikes with upgrades the points seperation isnt all that large... its just the risk with the deep strike... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissah Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Yes mate all Vanguards can carry Melta Bombs with them ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 The trouble with vanguard is the cost, id stick with the bike termy options otherwise youll have a teeny army.. Scout bikes can do alot of things normal bikers cant, like have grenade launchers and do first turn charges...then theres beacon and cluster mines. These boys combined with LSS can eat up the heavy weapons elements of your opponents forces and when your enemy turns to deal with them teleport in some termies to give the smack down... Basically your preventing him from reacting to the situation, kinda like wedging a door open, you hit with the bikes and LSS, he sends an appropriate response, who get blasted by DS'ing termies, at the same time your fast moving bike elements are doing thier thing... If your asking how to destroy a tank and kill theguys inside heres my take... use bikes and LSS team to block both entrances to his uber units transport, and takle iot out with multiple meltabombs in first turn (if you get first turn its auot hit) Simples.....^_^ GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I have a Land Raider Classic in my army, and I have to say its twinlinked lascannons are quite effective at taking things like rhinos and trukks out. Apart from that, I have missile launchers in all my tactical squads (of which there are 3 atm). A krak missile scores a penetrating hit against a rhino on a roll of 4, and glances on a roll of 3. A devastator squad with 4 MLs should therefore be rather reliable when it comes to popping a rhino per turn. I also intend to get a dakkapred in my army. Though I plan to use it against infantry (duh), I think it's autocannon should be able to take out lighter transports and skimmers with relative ease. Personally, I have my entire army except a single tac squad mechanized (and that's only because I need to buy a 3rd rhino). When I'm playing against a mechanized opponent, it's all about hitting them before they hit me. I usually shoot krak missiles from inside passive rhinos, combined with lascannons from the LR in hopes I'd wreck or even destroy an enemy transport. In the following turn I assault the passengers with terminators and/or drive close with a rhino, disembark the tacs, and rapid fire + flame them. As I said, it's all about hitting them before they hit you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulochromis Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I am looking for tactics on the destruction of both a transport and the unit inside in rapid order - allocating multiple units is ok but not 50% of my force subject unto one unit per turn ...... I am more looking for combinations that are effective in destroying the unit inside a transport rather than JUST the transport and the method of applying desired units ... hey Ryan, I seem to recall a tactica a while back where this ozzie kept harking on about internal detachments, maybe search-foo will turn something up. Anyway, going from first principles, it seems to me that there are two main ideas: Firstly, the one-two punch, where you use a reliable can-opener to pop the vehicle during the shooting phase and a second unit to take care of the occupants once they've disembarked. This second unit can be shooty OR assault, but if it's shooty order is important. Obviously/ideally, the first unit needs to get a destroyed result, so you want to maximise the BS of the shooter(s), maximise the S (and/or minimize the AP number) of the weapon, and probably maximise the number of shooters/shots. It used to be lascannons, but melta/multi-melta appears to be the flavour of the day. Of course, the can-opener can be vehicle-mounted with the "second" unit being the occupants if you don't want to link units together. I'm thinking of trying a shooty command squad (4xPG - but maybe some flamers?) in a razorback in this role. I'm sure you'll do much better than me (especially if you can hold of the author of the article I referred to before) at coming up with units that can work together. An AT Dreadnought in tandem with suitably equipped ASM/VG (or even HG) might be another combo. And of course, everyone's new favourite, the LSS plus shooty/shotty scouts. The second approach, which I haven't seen talked about so much, is to try and get a destroyed result with nowhere for the occupants to go. Assaulting a vehicle (multi-PF/TH squad anyone?) whilst covering the exits could be effective, provided the blast from the "Destroyed - Explodes!" result can be withstood (Storm Shields?). Just my $0.02. Cheers, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I seem to recall a tactica a while back where this ozzie kept harking on about internal detachments, maybe search-foo will turn something up. What?, theres more of you??? Just how many Ozzies are taking time off the chain gangs to play 40k....we are gunna have to do something about this!!! The second approach, which I haven't seen talked about so much, is to try and get a destroyed result with nowhere for the occupants to go. Assaulting a vehicle (multi-PF/TH squad anyone?) whilst covering the exits could be effective, provided the blast from the "Destroyed - Explodes!" result can be withstood (Storm Shields?). The explode result is a S3 attack, and you get save throws, all you need is one or two guys to block the door, so you can afford to take a couple of casulties and still get the job done, and as i said, if you do a first turn scout attack (my speciality) you can mess up a land raider with meltabombs and kill the uber units inside when they cant disembark...this requires 2 or 3 units (and it helps for extra meltabomb attacks too) Either LSS or bikes would do ok here, but quick question....can the LSS itself block the exit or does it have to be troops? GC08 Edit: me being an idyit, just realised the aussie Pauly was talking about was Taul and his reaction control article, i musta read that thing a dozen times and i still idint get it, geeeez i need a holiday :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Barring good fortune, there is little you can do to neutralise an opponents ability to move his forces across the board short term, particulary with your favoured lists mate. I would reccomend a refused flank, with target priority going to the mobile units furtherest away, but I don't think your normal lists have the range for it! Barring that, units capable of putting high pressure on opponents thus distracting them must be considered. Drop Podding first turn units combined with Scout Bikers can really apply pressure first turn. Scout Bikers I have been considering alot lately! 6 strong with 3x grenade launcher upgrades and a Power Fist on the Sergeant is just 185pts, plenty cheap for a unit that can Scout move before the game 24" across the table! Enemy vehicles are at risk, as are heavy weapon units. A simple drop podding Tactical squad with Librarian in Terminator armour and the Avenger and Vortex of Doom psychic powers should do alot of damage too. I would reccomend a Deathwind Launcher on the Drop Pod to equal the fight vs hoards, which combined with Avenger and a bolter shock means you can wipe out or cripple 2x enemy infantry units in a single turn! Alternatively, Vortex of Doom is S10 AP1 and a melta gun in the Tactical squad means no enemy vehicle is safe! And here's the clever bit (if I do say so myself)! You can combat squad after disembarking from a Drop Pod. We all know that Drop Pods are pretty reliable and you can easily enough get the deploying unit close to you target units. So Combat squad the Librarian in one squad and the Melta gun in the other to pop 2 Transports on turn one! The Deathwind launcher can help you deal with any disembarking infantry to boot. The beauty about this is you have 11 models plus a vehicle right amongst the enemies safe zone and should have done some serious damage, thus forcing opponents to concentrate on them. And this combo costs (for a mela gun and free mult-melta in the Tactical squad and a powerfist on the Sergeant) a mere 380pts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Scout Bikers I have been considering alot lately! 6 strong with 3x grenade launcher upgrades and a Power Fist on the Sergeant is just 185pts, plenty cheap for a unit that can Scout move before the game 24" across the table! Enemy vehicles are at risk, as are heavy weapon units. Even better than that, they can infiltrate! Then get scout move (12" away from enemy), then get 12" and 6" assault..... Anyone say first turn charge <_< GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Kluft Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Most dirty tank hunters ever. HQ :Hestan (for the MM reroll) HQ : Libby with Gate FA : 2+ MM attack bikes Attach libby to MM attack bikes, gate them around and fire away with twin linked MM shots since they are relentless. (Start 12 inch from board edge, tele 24 inches, outs you on edge of his dep zone, and wihin 12 inches for the extra melta pen dice) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 Cheers everyone - very very helpful - Paul - thanks for the heads up - I might re-read that article you mentioned - I havent forgotten it, my lists still use it but my choices dont allow it to be as strong as it used to be - I team my ironclads and LSS against transports regularly BUT they either destroy the target completely on the drop (melta + 2 x HK) or miss with the lot.. in either case, my LSS unit is left hanging... I would dearly love to trap a transport unit but as I havent really tried to do so until now, now I am asking the questions... there is little you can do to neutralise an opponents ability to move The ability to destroy units is more my problem, my last tourney game was against orks with 6 trukks and I kept him in his deployment zone (table quarters) with the only thing making it out were his kommandos.. and they started out of it... But I still struggled with killing the actual orks once disembarked.. it took two turns to open ALL of them up under the protection of a mech boy but not until the very end of turn 7 did the last ork die... Scout Bikers I have been considering alot lately! 6 strong with 3x grenade launcher upgrades and a Power Fist on the Sergeant is just 185pts, plenty cheap for a unit that can Scout move before the game 24" across the table! Enemy vehicles are at risk, as are heavy weapon units. I am looking at this very unit as key to what I wish to achieve.. they can attack a transport before the game begins (given the first turn) and reliably destroy it AND deny the exit points... however, this unit is very prone to counter attack.. Add in a unit of scouts in a LSS and I could probably even block an open topped vehicle.. This relies heavily on first turn though.. vs minor mech armies, these guys are going to be extremely strong - multiplying them though is not really an option as I have to drop a LSS to free up the slot and LSS have been doing amazingly well for me of late... So Combat squad the Librarian in one squad and the Melta gun in the other to pop 2 Transports on turn one! Good point - I was going to team a termy libby with some termies + cyclone and hit off the locator beacon carried by the biker unit to get them in a perfect counter counter position and send in a salvo of blasts and AP1 Str 10 on the densly packed unit..... I might try the second libby with tacticals and another beacon on the pod for a bit of dual action but through different means - nice idea mate... I could chuck in a combi melta and PF sergeant just to add to it too... thats (with the bikes) PF assault on a transport + pod with 2 x melta gun and 2 x vortex of doom (from two termy libbies) and a cyclone.. very strong - Add in 10 scouts in LSS and I might be able to trap a unit or two bagging a solid and heavy blow before the enemy gets to even use a tape measure... Most dirty tank hunters ever. HQ :Hestan (for the MM reroll) HQ : Libby with Gate FA : 2+ MM attack bikes Attach libby to MM attack bikes, gate them around and fire away with twin linked MM shots since they are relentless. (Start 12 inch from board edge, tele 24 inches, outs you on edge of his dep zone, and wihin 12 inches for the extra melta pen dice) A nice dirty trick - perfect - cheap as aswell - 200 points! (without vulkan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Flattery from a gamer like yourself is very welcome mate! :) I think with those Orks killing them all will always be the problem, especially short term. The transport really protects them until you can pop it or they get out, despite being open topped and AV10. Most dirty tank hunters ever. HQ :Hestan (for the MM reroll) HQ : Libby with Gate FA : 2+ MM attack bikes Attach libby to MM attack bikes, gate them around and fire away with twin linked MM shots since they are relentless. (Start 12 inch from board edge, tele 24 inches, outs you on edge of his dep zone, and wihin 12 inches for the extra melta pen dice) I agree, that is a nice dirty trick! People just won't see it comming and there is little that can be done about it! Oh, just one thing on trapping units in transports; it isn't as good as it used to be. The emergency disembarkation rules on page 67 state that models can be placed anywhere 2" of the vehicles hull if they cannot disembark due to impassable terrain or enemy units. Only if this is still impossible (due to terrain or enemy) then are units destroyed as they are unable to disembark a wrecked vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Retreat Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 All these fancy tricks are awesome, no doubt. But we have a rule now that's custom made for this. Combat Squads. Take your standard RL/Flamer Tactical squad. Together, like in old editions, they'd have to do one thing or the other, and if the Rocket pops a transport, the rest do basically nothing. However, with some maneuver (which I'll leave to the hypothetical for now), and Combat Squads, the Rocket Launcher squad can pop the transport while the Sgt and crew move, flamer and bolt pistol the survivors while they're nice and clumped, then charge in to clean up in assault. Gearing for specific opponents aside (can you say PF, Melta, Lascannon?), and although I'm sure you're looking for a more elegant solution than this, even the simple 170 point basic tactical squad can be employed quite well to dealing with a transport and it's passengers in the same turn, when effectively using Combat Squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warprat Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I think if you want the ultimate, it would be 10 Sternguard in a Pod, dropped next to a Land Raider filled with Terminators. Five of the Strernguard combat squaded with combi-meltas, while the other five have combi-plasma. That would be a nasty little surprise for anybody. Add in a Librarian in termie armor with Null Zone and Vortex of Doom. Kind of spendy though... Warprat ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain_quint Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Most dirty tank hunters ever. HQ :Hestan (for the MM reroll) HQ : Libby with Gate FA : 2+ MM attack bikes Attach libby to MM attack bikes, gate them around and fire away with twin linked MM shots since they are relentless. (Start 12 inch from board edge, tele 24 inches, outs you on edge of his dep zone, and wihin 12 inches for the extra melta pen dice) that one is really nasty indeed! Gotta try it myself! on topic. MM attackbikes tagteamed with an assaultsquad to smush the survivers. If you have vulcan in your army its almost a sure hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoonKin Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 I got an idea in mind, but I do not know if it is still valid in 5th Edition since I do not get a chance to do it due to change of army. How about getting a squad of bikers (preferably at max strength), loaded with the usual melta weapons, and blocking the exit points of the transport? And assuming you managed to destroy the transport, I suppose the units inside would not be able to disembark since models cannot enter within 1 inch of an opposing model in any phase (except assault). That embarked unit would count as destroyed I guess. As you can see it may be one of those underhanded tactics but I am sure you would be able to achieve both goals of destroying the transport and the unit inside. Just my 2 cents tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted April 15, 2009 Author Share Posted April 15, 2009 All these fancy tricks are awesome, no doubt. But we have a rule now that's custom made for this. Combat Squads. definately a bonus - hard to employ and most units can shrug off a 5 man tactical assault if you do get it to be postioned right - This is nice IF they are moving at you , but then , if they are in your assault range then generally the transport has already done its job... I want to punish a mech list on the go get... turn 1 I think if you want the ultimate, it would be 10 Sternguard in a Pod, dropped next to a Land Raider filled with Terminators. Five of the Strernguard combat squaded with combi-meltas, while the other five have combi-plasma. That would be a nasty little surprise for anybody. Add in a Librarian in termie armor with Null Zone and Vortex of Doom. sweet untill the trmies are deployed on the otherside of the wreck.. then its a bit of a - oh crap - moment... at worst, they would still get cover saves - BUT, as you say.. it is one of the better ways of taking on such a target - you have the perfect tools for the job at hand.. Oh, just one thing on trapping units in transports; it isn't as good as it used to be. The emergency disembarkation rules on page 67 state that models can be placed anywhere 2" of the vehicles hull if they cannot disembark due to impassable terrain or enemy units. Only if this is still impossible (due to terrain or enemy) then are units destroyed as they are unable to disembark a wrecked vehicle. thats why I am looking at bikes with massive bases - they take up alot of room.. the hard part is getting that wrecked result instead of the destroyed one - Serpents are giving me the :cusss with their 12' movement and denying melta or str 8 + weapons an edge... BUT, they only have ONE access point and the 5+ makes trapping them much more feasible... I was just chatting to GC08 via PM's and he mentioned using scout bikes and GOI with scouts with shotties and then tried to add in Khan for a combat hit and then I thought of this... Scout bikers + Beacon... Libby + vanguard - Infiltrate + scout move to get within 12' of your enemy but within 24 of the libby and vanguard.. GOI the libby with the vanguard but on the edge of the 6' of the scout biker's beacon and then move the bikes up within 2' of the libby so you can 'attach the libby to the bikers' , the scout bikers use grenade launchers and a combi meltagun to open a transport and then the vanguard use heroic intervention to assault the unit with power weapons and the like as the IC is no longer with them... its just an idea.. I have never seen anyone do it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain_quint Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Ön the other hand, remember that you expensive unit is now in the open without any serious backup. If they got shot up or beat up in the next round I wouldn't be suprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Ön the other hand, remember that you expensive unit is now in the open without any serious backup. If they got shot up or beat up in the next round I wouldn't be suprised. they will be in the shadow of a burned out transport, also its best used against a flank to reduce damage from firing and counter assault... These things are kinda no brainers though... GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted April 15, 2009 Author Share Posted April 15, 2009 If they got shot up or beat up in the next round I wouldn't be suprised. true, but its all good to see what people come up with.. just brain storming ideas here.. looking outside the square.. :lol: any more little gems? MM bikes with GOI seems the most economical - it would be sweet to team it with a unit to get the disembarking troops at the same time.. and scout bikers are looking at number one for the multi-task role of both the transport and unit inside in the one go.. any other methods and combos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Is it Kantor that gives +1Attack to anyone within 12".. Why not attach him to a libby and GOI him inot range of first turn charging scout bikes and LSS teams... pure carnage...ccw scouts with 4 attacks each on the charge, and scout bikers with 3 each.. How about using Shrike to infiltrate a unit of sternguard for first turn rapid fire.. Or Shrike, khan on bike and vanguard for infiltrating, fleeting, furious charge and hit and run first turn charges...ouch GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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