Updating GK Fast Attack

[Aidoneus]

If you aren't familiar with my Fixing Daemonhunters thread, I recommend you take a look at that before continuing on here. This thread is a sort of off-shoot of that project, for reasons that will become clear in a moment. The issues to be raised in this thread are meant to fit within the context of that project, so it will be necessary to understand the goals and progress of that project before you can fully understand what I'm trying to accomplish here.

 

The issue of Fast Attack choices was raised because, by giving all Grey Knights the ability to teleport into battle, we eliminated the one and only FA choice in the codex. Now, my belief was that, to fulfill our goal of making a well-balanced and competitive codex, we needed to add another FA option to replace the one we removed. However, this goes against our other goal of making only minimalistic tweaks, rather than sweeping changes.

 

I laid out my side of the argument in post number 277:

Guys, I understand that creating a new unit goes outside my mandate of minimalism. I admitted as much in my very first post. But I didn't do that haphazardly. By giving teleport to every GK unit, I removed an entire unit from our codex. Not only that, but it was our only FA unit. I feel like it's absolutely necessary for an army to have options in every single force org category. So not only did I want to replace the unit option I removed, I felt it was even more necessary given that not doing so would leave us completely without FA options.

 

However, virtually no one seems to agree with my reasoning, at least not with all of it. We are spending more and more time on the subject, so I wanted to deal with it separately, since it obviously does fall outside the normal bounds of the project. I really want to get a feel for what people think.

 

As one good example of the sort of argument given against my reasoning, this is what Ominous Anonimous had to say in past number 279:

I agree, but adding to existing fluff beyond what GW has given us with goes beyond our stated purpose. If GW feels that, as with the Land Raider and Power-armored Grey Knights that we could use bikes, or jump packs, or Grey Knights riding stegodons then they will give it to us. :)

 

As it stands, this it out of our jurisdiction, so to speak.

 

In my mind, there are several questions being asked here:

 

1) Is it okay for a codex (a reasonably competitive one) to simply lack any options in one Force Org category?

2) Given that we lack a FA option, should we (as part of this project) add in a new unit for FA?

3) Given that we removed a unit option as part of our project, should we add in a new unit to replace it?

(note, 2 and 3 are NOT the same question, and could lead to the same or different conclusions)

4) If we decide, for whatever reason, to add in a new FA unit option, what is an appropriate unit to add?

 

For now, I want to set #4 aside. First, I want to hear everyone's opinions on all of the first three questions. Then, and only then, if consensus dictates that we add a new unit, at that point we can begin discussing options for that. But again, that will come later, if at all. For now, ignore #4, and simply answer 1-3.

[paulson games]

I think it's ok to be lacking a slot on the organization chart, in the older codex they only had one FA option and that didn't seem to be an issue.

 

Gaining teleport on grey knight troops makes them significantly better than they used to be as a fast attack option. They now serve a dual role, they count towards your troop choice minimum and also count as scoring troops which is awesome for deepstrike/teleport units. Under the old fast attack slot they didn't count as scoring and it also meant you had to run an additional troop choice. This helps streamline the army's point cost and gains a lot of flexibility whan taking/holding objectives.

 

 

If the regular C:SM was modified so that troops were automatically replaced with assault troops for the same cost, do you think they'd need to replace the fast attack option? I'd say no, and that's basically what the change to the GK's represents. They are fine without additional FA options, and with blanket teleport for all GKs it may actually be a bit overly strong, it will warrent much playtesting.

 

Being able to hold back scoring units in reserve until late game to swoop directly in on objectives is a huge advatange, given that most scoring units are no longer capable of this. A full strength unit of GKs on an objective is very hard to dislodge particuarly in the last round. Hard to shoot, and even harder to kill in CC.

 

Additionally the number of teleporting deep striking squads goes up dramatically. Before you had at maximum 3 squads teleporting as fast attack and you also had to sink points into basic troop choices at the same time. Now under the changed rule you can run 6 squads of teleporters without needing to buy the 2 additional squads of point sink. Or it'd be 9 squads of teleporting if you also count GK termies, that's a horrificly mobile army that is very hard to engage.

 

Podding list can grant that type of mobility, but they are also paying additional points for every squad they want to pod. If you want blanket teleport then the price per GK is probably going to need to be raised at least 3-5 pts a model.

[Prathios]

Good idea making this sub-thread Aidoneus. I actually think its perfectly fine to lack a FA slot. It solves our problem with the bike/jetpack debate, stays with the fluff, is a minimalist change, and keeps things streamlined without having to spend the time creating a totally new unit. I was all in favor of both jetpacks and bikes as long as they looked and felt GK but this resolution is not only acceptable but more or less the proper and logical action.

 

Someone might bring up the point that you might want those FA slots for more troops but lets be honest, six troop slots is more than enough for a game at any point level. After all 60 PAGK is 1650 points (with no heavy weapons), so add in some Terminators, LR, and Dreadnoughts and you can easily push past 3000 when you would start using apoc rules anyway.

 

So I'm all for just leaving it alone. In the end though I think whatever you end up doing will likely be fine, so far the update has been very productive. Nice work.

[jeffersonian000]

How about making Purgation Squads a Fast choice? They will already be able to deep strike, and GK special weapons are assault weapons. This would give a player the ability to drop the fire base on to the board anywhere needed (Land Speeder/Attack Bikes), or drop a burner unit behind an advancing horde (assault marines as counter assault/3rd Ed style).

 

Another though is to make Dreadnoughts a Fast choice, freeing up the need to decide on burning a heavy slot. Of course, no new rules need be created, just a reassignment of Force Org slot.

 

SJ

[guillaume]

Well, let me see, now I have been on work leave for 3 months in Tanzania, so I have not followed the development of the Imperial Guards closely,

 

But from what I can now gather, the new valkyrie will be a fast choice in a IG army, therefore we should have access to it for our Inquisitor lord...give a plasma retinue, and watch them hop on hop off and moving at the speed of 12" light!

 

Doesnt that 'count as' a "fast" choice in DH armies...technically speaking?

[paulson games]

I think the valkerie as a fast attack option makes perfect sense.

 

Dreads being reassigned as fast attacks is not good as it'd allow for playing a very armor heavy style list which the DH are definately not about. It'd allow you to double the number of tanks and dreads you could field, which is an overkill of firepower.

 

Purgation squads I'd be iffy about they have a lot of beefy firepower, but they are still infantry. The psycannons and incinerators IMO are much less effective than devastator squads.

 

I can see some potenitally large problems with giving teleport to every grey knight unit. I think that drastically changes the roles and power of the organization charrt and it's hard to balance it vs the older model is everyone has teleport.

 

Fluff wise it makes sense, but game play it may be too strong of an advantage.

[Aidoneus]

Remember people, we are NOT discussing specific FA unit options at this time. I don't want to hear any ideas for specific units. Right now I just want you to answer my first three questions, about whether or not we should even have a new FA unit. Only if we eventually decide to do so will we discuss ideas on how to fill that slot.

 

The first two responses, those by Paulson Games and Prathios, are excellent examples of what responses should look like at this stage. Jeffersonian makes a valid point that we don't necessarily need a completely new unit, but could re-categorize some other unit. However, when Jeffersonian suggests a specific unit he starts to stray, and every post after has been similarly off-course.

 

So let's try to get back to the basics. The specific unit ideas are not up for discussion at this point.

[FunkyEntropy]

I think we've all been caught up in thinking exclusively Grey Knights when talking about Daemonhunters. Who says that the only possible option for replacing the FAGK is with more GK? As an addendum, as much as I'd like to have either GK with jump packs or bikes, I can't think of a fluffy reason for them to have them. From what we've seen in the DH codex, every single entry outside of the HS involving the GK is infantry-based. Even the FA option involves footslogging GK who are just as slow as everyone else once they hit the table.

 

In other words, in my opinion adding additional gear to the GK is a rather unfluffy route to take. Allowing all GK to teleport in fixed a lot of the pure GK lists mobility issues, and we should be content with that.

 

However, this is not about fixing Grey Knights, it's about fixing Daemonhunters. And the rest of the list definitely needs a FA option. Once the new IG codex comes out, I think we'll be able to figure out what to do (my vote is on Valkyrie + ISTs as the simplest solution). Of course, if I had my druthers we'd come up with something that's wholly DH instead of just lifted from the IG codex.

 

Some IST ideas off the top of my head:

 

IST Attack Bike Squad.

IST Land Speeder Squad.

IST Scouting party.

 

For all three of these I'm leaning towards them being anti-infantry (but still having armaments dangerous to light vehicles), to keep with the tradition of DH anti-tank being found in the HS slot. It also makes more sense to me fluff-wise, as I've always seen the ISTs as being a sort of rapid-response force tasked with taking out cultists before things get out of hand.

 

[edit: took too long writing, got a couple post jumpers ;)

The tl;dr version, fit to Aidoneus' four questions:

 

1)No, the Inquisition side has some major mobility+heavy firepower issues and therefore needs a viable FA unit.

2)Yes

3)No, we do not need to replace the lost FAGK with another GK-based unit.

4)Something involving ISTs

 

Hope that cleared things up :mellow: ]

[Grand Master Tchezzarus]

I think that the DH codex is (almost ) fine as it is.

I would like to see it revised point wise (rhino,chimera, DCA , incinerator & psycanon), and have an adamantine mantle in the armoury... but one thing I dream of is a drop-poding Dread option, and that could be your FA slot.

Tchezz.

[Thaelion Hexis]

Teleport Attack squads as both Troops and Fast attack. In really big games that would be a lot of Grey Knights. To me that keeps it fluffy, though does lack a little variation. Grey Knights are the Imperium's answer to Necrons, in terms of units.

[templargdt]

I'd like to see some sort of fast attack choice, and have it be something interesting and different. There was a discussion earlier about bike mounted knights, I thought that was a great idea. If not, what about GK that can teleport all the time? After all, they are all Psychers, why not let them cast that Libriarian spell where they deep strike while in play?

[jeffersonian000]

I agree that GK's need a Fast choice. However, I disagree that the option should be bikes or jump packs.

 

SJ

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

In my mind, there are several questions being asked here:

 

1) Is it okay for a codex (a reasonably competitive one) to simply lack any options in one Force Org category?

2) Given that we lack a FA option, should we (as part of this project) add in a new unit for FA?

3) Given that we removed a unit option as part of our project, should we add in a new unit to replace it?

(note, 2 and 3 are NOT the same question, and could lead to the same or different conclusions)

4) If we decide, for whatever reason, to add in a new FA unit option, what is an appropriate unit to add?

 

For now, I want to set #4 aside. First, I want to hear everyone's opinions on all of the first three questions. Then, and only then, if consensus dictates that we add a new unit, at that point we can begin discussing options for that. But again, that will come later, if at all. For now, ignore #4, and simply answer 1-3.

 

 

1) In my opinion, no. It is not ok. It is unprecedented per the other Codex's. It also limits variety, versatility, and playability in a Codex. Though you can have 0 FA in an army...it should be a player choice, not forced upon them.

 

2) Yes. Add in, move over, or something. Mainly for the reasons above.

 

3) Yes. For the reasons above and one other. If a player wants to play an all GK list (no Guard they have to kill later for seeing something they weren't supposed to see...or attacking a world so infested only GK stand a chance as Guard and

even Inq might go insane just landing....etc), then they should be able to.

 

I have ideas should it be decided to put them forth later.

[Red Lost Soldier]

I'm going to concur with most of the above posters.

 

1) It's not okay to have zero FA choices. No precedent and removing choice from player isn't great.

2) Since this is a home grown thing it's not the end of the world not having a FA choice. If we could include something fluffy while keeping to the minimalistic approach we should try it however. On these grounds I'm against the Jump Pack and even the Bike crowd. They may make sense, but throw up many problems.

3) We don't really have to replace a unit simply because we removed one. It was hardly a separate unit in the first place, just a unit we already have with an extra ability.

 

 

And for 4), I'm just going to say I like the both ideas of purgation squads becoming FA, and the option of an IST FA choice, though the latter may break our minimalistic approach.

[Grand Master Iapetus]

I like the theme of using FA to give options to existing units from other sections of the FOC, instead of having actual "FA" dedicated units. However, by moving them to the FA slot, we could enhance thier options. Let me explain:

 

- FA would have no dedicated units.

- Existing units could become FA, thereby losing their normal FOC status, but they would gain new options.

- There would be points costs associated with becoming FA.

- Suggested Units that could become FA: ISTs, GKTs, PAGKs, GK Dreads

- Units would have the option to:

 

1. Take Heroic Intervetion for a cost (5 points per model, 15 points for a dread?) This would be the only option for Dreads, upgrade option for GKTs & PAGK, not available for ISTs.

 

2. Take a transport not normally allowed (pay the cost of the transport)

- Valkyries / Vendettas for ISTs / PAGKs / GKTs (evil grin)

- Rhinos / Chimeras for PAGKs

- Chimeras for GKTs

- LR / LRC / LRR for GKTs / PAGK

[Lungboy]

1) Is it okay for a codex (a reasonably competitive one) to simply lack any options in one Force Org category?

2) Given that we lack a FA option, should we (as part of this project) add in a new unit for FA?

3) Given that we removed a unit option as part of our project, should we add in a new unit to replace it?

 

1) As others have said, no, it's not ok to have no FA. It doesn't need to be a GK unit, but there should at least be some options to take in this slot. In fact, it makes sense for there to be no GK FA, and to use the IST to plug this gap in some way.

 

2) Yes, adding an FA unit, or multiple FA units, seems a logical thing to do.

 

3) As said, removing one doesn't mean that we have to add a new unit. The fact that we have zero is why we should add a new unit.

[Ominous Anonymous]

1) Is it okay for a codex (a reasonably competitive one) to simply lack any options in one Force Org category?

2) Given that we lack a FA option, should we (as part of this project) add in a new unit for FA?

3) Given that we removed a unit option as part of our project, should we add in a new unit to replace it?

(note, 2 and 3 are NOT the same question, and could lead to the same or different conclusions)

4) If we decide, for whatever reason, to add in a new FA unit option, what is an appropriate unit to add?

 

1-On principle? No. One of the better things about the more recent codii (codexi? codexes?) is that you can really make just about any kind of list you want and have a sense of competitiveness in it. Even a Marine or Eldar army by it's nature as an elite force has, due to a wealth of fluff over the decades, a cornucopia of different units to use to give each army a unique feel, going for either mechanized or speed or close combat or Drop Pod assault, what have you. Even as a more niche army such as the Grey Knights (or even the Daemonhunters codex as a whole) we have a woefully low amount of fluff, eking out over Necrons if only because we're on the Imperial side and have an omnibus (which may or may not be taken as fluff, either). Even if it's only a unit for Grey Knight players, they should have access to it.

 

2+3-We don't neccessarily lack a FA option, we just have one that has to share the same duty as everyone else, so there's no reason to take it over a unit that can hold objectives. Instead of a new unit entirely we could simply expand on that original Fast Attack option.

 

4-For Daemonhunters, Puritans, and Radical players the Valkyrie with Stormtroopers seems to be a good fit for a Fast Attack slot, so there's no worry there. As for pure Grey Knights, we have the Teleportation squad. Or Teleportation squads now, more or less. The reason I don't like bikes and jump packs is because there's a sheer lack of fluff for their use by Grey Knights outside of one source that wasn't GW themselves. If GW has a different opinion then that's fine, because they're the ones in charge of producing rules in the first place. Teleportation works better because it's a much more technologically advanced form of movement than a bike or a jump pack, which seem very simple (or for that matter, physical) if you compared it to literally opening a wormhole, and using the best is what the Grey Knights are known for (as opposed to, say, the Mentors, who fluffwise are like a research and development Chapter, and would use anything to see what the effect would be).

 

Not to mention that while bikes and jump packs would be new territory for Grey Knights, Teleportation is very much ingrained in our image of them, and it's easier to extend that aspect of them than create a new one. One idea would be to give (Veteran) Teleportation squads Heroic Intervention, but I fear that would encourage first-turn assaults and I'd like to avoid that if possible. Instead, I recommend simply giving them a reroll of the scatter dice, and a purchaseable form of the Gate from the Space Marine Codex that lets the unit assault afterwards. Another would be to give them Heroic Intervention and the reroll for free, but require that they must remain in reserves until turn 2.

 

Oh, and I think we should discourage a points increase across the board for allowing all units to Deep Strike. Drop Pods cost what they do because, in my mind, they come with a free Storm Bolter, can be used as 'mobile' cover, and most importantly of all more or less ignore the Deep Strike mishap table entirely. :)

[Aidoneus]

All right. I've tallied the results (and added in my own and TJ's opinions), and we stand at 11 for adding another FA choice, and 3 against. Furthermore, of those 3, two have suggested ideas for FA units anyway. I get the feeling they are content with where things are now, but would not be opposed to adding in the FA choice. At any rate, the majority opinion is pretty clear, and we WILL be adding a new FA unit. [insert sounds of cheering and clapping]

 

Now we come to the question of how to fill the empty slot. Many of you have already started brainstorming on the subject (against my expressed wishes :) ;) ), so I think we have a solid starting point at least.

 

First, some of you have alluded to this, but I want to say it explicitly, because I think I have failed in this regard thus far. We need to appreciate that the Daemonhunter codex incorporates what are essentially two separate, albeit completely mixable, armies: Grey Knights and the Ordo Malleus. We need to respect that many (I dare say, probably most) players will chose one or the other most of the time, rather than running combined lists. Certainly, players want the ability to do so. Therefore, to make sure neither sub-army is lacking an FA choice, we need one inquisitorial choice and one GK choice.

 

It has been suggested, and generally accepted I think, that Valkyries will be our Inquisitorial FA choice. I think I may give Inquisitor retinues a Valkyrie dedicated transport option, but for any ISTs or inducted IG who want to take one, the player will need to buy FA Valkyries as non-dedicated transports, in exactly the same way our PAGKs can ride in our HS land raiders. That's minimalistic, and extremely easy, as we can just rip the rules from the IG codex.

 

For Grey Knights, I get the sense that overwhelming consensus wants a similarly minimalistic option. This isn't what I originally wanted, but in a way it's better, because it will conform more nicely with the overall project. I know some of you have ideas that you have not mentioned yet, and I encourage you to present them now. Allow me to take this time though to comment on what I thought were the most promising ideas so far.

 

Purgation Squad: This idea was presented by Jeffersonian. Essentially, instead of adding anything new, we just move Purgation squads from HS to FA. This is possibly my favorite suggestion so far. Purgations squads, at the moment, are just not taken, and this is because of 2 reasons. First, they essentially can't do anything Troops PAGKs can't do at least almost as well, and unlike PAGKs they don't score. Second, they compete for valuable HS slots with our anti-tank options, dreadnoughts and land raiders. These two points together mean people are willing to settle for "mini-purgation squads" so that they can hold objectives and allow the GK player to take dreads/raiders. Moving the squad to FA would eliminate point 2 entirely, and therefore make them a more attractive option.

 

Same as Troops Squads: This idea was presented by Marshal Paul. Essentially, instead of adding anything new, we keep the old FAGK squad, which now happens to be the exact same as our Troops squads. While I am not a particular fan of this idea, it at least does conform with minimalism. I mention it especially because some of you seem to think this option is still available at the moment in my project. It is not. When I gave every GK unit teleport, I removed the FA unit option altogether. We could, as Paul suggests, add it back in. But it's not there now.

 

Upgrade Other Squads: This idea was presented by Grand Master Iapetus. Essentially, instead of making a solely-FA unit, we keep with the old mechanic of upgrading a unit from a different FO category to FA by giving it some different ability. Iapetus mentions allowing an upgrade to give the unit Heroic Intervention, or allowing it to take a dedicated transport. I like that this would keep essentially the same mechanic as before, although I am still vehemently opposed to included any form of Heroic Intervention.

 

Re-Roll Scatter Dice: This idea was presented by Ominous Anonymous. Essentially, instead of adding a new unit, we take basic PAGK squads but give them some sort of deep-strike benefit. Ominous mentions re-rolling scatter dice, just like GKTs. TJ and I also though perhaps allowing them to re-roll their reserves rolls, like a squad-specific Improved Comms or Pheromone Trail. This would have the effect of giving them more control over when they come in, which seems appropriate for a FA squad (get where you need to be, when you need to be there)

 

 

I'll go ahead and tell you my preference. Consider it my personal suggestion to you. I say we combine Jeffersonian's idea to move Purgation squads to FA with Ominous' idea to give them a deep-strike benefit. You may have noticed, of the two problems with purg squads, Jeffersonian's suggestion only fixed one of them. By combining it with Ominous' suggestion, we fix the second problem as well. Not only will purg squads not be vying with dreads and raiders for valuable HS slots, they will also have an advantage over scoring Troops units. Further, the deep-striking benefits will help to explain why a formerly-HS unit is now in FA.

 

Thus, I would say we should move purgation squads to FA, give them the re-roll to DS scatter dice, and also give them the re-roll to reserves rolls. I don't think any points hike is necessary for those abilities, because these units will still not be scoring, and so the special abilities can be seen as an even trade-off for the lack of scoring status.

 

As I said, anyone who has been kind enough not to suggest any ideas yet should feel free to do so now. If I like your ideas, I'll endorse them too. But just for now, my suggestion here sounds to me (and TJ too) like the best choice. Thoughts?

[Ominous Anonymous]

Purgation squads as Fast Attack seems like the most logical choice to make, though my only questions are A ) Why Heroic Intervention shouldn't be added to the army and B ) You mentioned my idea about rerolling the Scatter Dice, but the meat and potatoes of my argument dealt with using the Gate of Infinity(with or without Heroic Intervention), perhaps as a purchasable option between it or the Valkyrie. What are your opinions on that?

[FunkyEntropy]

Moving the Purgation squad to FA seems like the most logical solution. As Aidoneus noted, that solves the two main problems with Purg squads.

 

...I still think we should give the Inquisitor sides more options than just another IST squad plus transport (even if the Valkyrie is faster than a chimera).

 

Attack Bike IST - probably my favorite, as it functions like a scout bike in reverse: they die easier than scout bikes, but have much better shooting. Essentially have the same level of mobility as transported IST but with much, much better shooting.

 

Land Speeder IST - probably the weakest of the three ideas, both fluff-wise and in power. These would essentially be glass cannons. They have all the firepower of a normal SM Land Speeders but all the vulnerabilities of the scout version, ie AV10 + Open-Topped. I'd personally keep them from being able to upgrade with Typhoon Launchers as that qualifies as ranged anti-tank in my book.

 

IST Scouts - interesting choice. Infantry, non-mobility based FA option. However, gives you ability to infiltrate/outflank which is supposedly pretty nice. Depending on how things change with the new IG codex, I'd prefer their weapon options to be mostly anti-personnel.

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

Alrighty then....

 

Now I can't take credit for the idea...as I first came across the idea of Purge Squads as a FA from 7eAL's thread. But I really liked it. Alot! As they lose their NFW...they of all the GK's really don't wanna be in CC! And I also like the idea because it frees up the HS options as well! There is too much clutter in the HS section as of right now!

 

So, how to make Purge Squads a FA choice...

 

They already have Deep Strike..so that's handled.

 

1) Give them an ability similar to Warp Spiders where they can Deep Strike in..next turn Teleport out..and Deep Strike again later... (not my idea..just putting it forth)

 

I don't care for this due to the fact that the Squad is gonna spend too much time off the board to be useful in any meaningful way. Plus there is no precedent for Imperial teleports to allow this.

 

 

2) As they are all psykers and can gestalt thru a Justicar (like the old Holocaust)...give them a psychic ability like the Gate of Infinity power in C:SM. Nothing says a GK psyker can't learn a different power when he goes to a Purge Squad!! They deep strike in...shoot...and *bamf*...deep strike over to where they are needed. Kinda like turbo-boosting bikes or jump marines or whatever. And there is the added danger of Deep Strike scatter and such to help balance it out. If things get too close..they get away...

 

I really like this idea as it is unique and fits within the "every GK is a psyker" idea and that they "are screened to exclude all but the most potent of psykers" and they "can match those of the mightiest Librarians of the Adeptus Astartes". It also let's them react and move around the field like other FA choices in other armies..be it Speeders, Bikes, Jump Packs, Cavalry, Skimmers, whatever...

 

 

3) The idea put forth by Aid about re-rolling scatter and re-roll reserves.

 

While an interesting idea that has merit...I personally don't think it has the "feel" of what a FA choice is and what it is supposed to do. I see FA and being able to get around the battlefield, reacting/maneuvering to problems/situations as they occur...Speeders, Bikes, Jump Packs, Cavalry, Beasts, etc....covering ground quickly or in larger chunks than foot-sloggers. While the rerolls get you into better positin and more likely when you want them to...that is only once..the rest of the game..they are just walking around no faster, etc than infantry and can't react/maneuver/etc like other FA choices.

 

 

 

(ps. I'm also in favor of the idea put forth by others that all GK deep strikes should be better/more accurate than others..they have access to better/the best tech, they teleport more than anyone else almost exclusively, etc, etc..but that's me)

[Lion in the Stars]

1) Is it okay for a codex (a reasonably competitive one) to simply lack any options in one Force Org category?

 

No. Certain scenarios require options from some parts of the Force Org chart.

 

2) Given that we lack a FA option, should we (as part of this project) add in a new unit for FA?

 

Yes, every codex needs a FA option or two. Note that almost every codex has at least 2 options in every single Force Org slot (DA only have one troops choice, as do BA IIRC).

 

3) Given that we removed a unit option as part of our project, should we add in a new unit to replace it?

 

Yes. Any codex needs all the options to be competitive.

 

=====

So, what should it be?

 

I'm partial to the idea of the Purgation squads for the GK half of the equation.

 

Valkyries (more properly *Vendetta* gunships, which are a Valkyrie with 3x twinlinked lascannons and full transport capability) would also fit the bill on the IST side.

 

There is some official mention of Adeptus Arbites bikers, so "ISTs on bikes" would be an option, as well.

[Aidoneus]

Purgation squads as Fast Attack seems like the most logical choice to make, though my only questions are A ) Why Heroic Intervention shouldn't be added to the army and B ) You mentioned my idea about rerolling the Scatter Dice, but the meat and potatoes of my argument dealt with using the Gate of Infinity(with or without Heroic Intervention), perhaps as a purchasable option between it or the Valkyrie. What are your opinions on that?

Right, forgot about those options. Let's see...

 

Actually, before we get to that, everyone seems to agree on moving purgation squads to FA. Does that seem like a fair statement? Valkyries too seem to be generally supported. So can we say for sure we're going with those two units? We can still modify purg squads to make them more FA-ish, but at the very least that's going to be the base we build from?

 

Now, back to the special rules. If we allow them, I can see them as optional upgrades for the squad. It would look something like this:

 

Unit: Purgation Squad

Special Rules: may re-roll scatter and distance dice when deep-striking (like GKTs)

Options: May choose ONE of the following...

 

-The squad may take the psychic power Gate of Infinity for Xpts (I'm thinking 30ish, but we can discuss this separately). The entire squad counts as casting the power, exactly like Holocaust in a grey knight terminator squad. (we would also have to discuss whether they could use their re-roll for these teleports as well)

 

-The squad may be given the Heroic Intervention special rule for Ypts (I have no idea what's appropriate, but again probably 30ish points). This ability may not be used during the first game turn.

 

This would allow the squad to be set up in any of three ways:

-plain: nice and cheap, still has the re-roll and extra weapons

-fast: excellent for getting your weapons where you want them, especially 4 incinerators :tu:

-assaulty: because yes, it would be nice for GKs to have an assaulty unit. In this case, one could always simply choose not to buy special weapons (no reason you have to just because you can)

 

I actually really like this idea. We'd need to futz with the points and wording, but overall I think it's balanced, fluffy, useful, and at least relatively minimlistic (it's a squad we already have, with abilities "lesser" marines already have).

 

How's that look?

[Ominous Anonymous]

That's...that's actually perfect, really. :tu:

 

The unit gives you some great flexibility to work with. Playing aginst a gunline? Give the unit Incinerators and Heroic Intervention and ruin Tau/IG units. Facing a mechanized list with lots of Chimaeras or Rhinos? Give them the Gate and Psycannons and teleport around the field hunting for rear armor. And in both situations they're a little more reliable for their mission with that reroll of theirs.

 

Or even just a unit that's used for a successive assault with Heroic Intervention would be great by itself. I've got no complaints about this idea, it's everything I would want in a Fast Attack unit.

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

While the idea of HI never crossed my mind for a Purge Squad (my brain always associates the psy's and inc's)....after realizing the myriad of uses this unit can serve...I like it! Very functional, very useful, tactically flexible, able to react to the situation/serve certain purposes in your army list.

 

Nice!

 

I'm for it! Just nailing down the points...

 

 

But....

 

A couple of small things. I'm not sold on the re-rolls like GKT's. This may be overpowered when you can get your assault unit or special/heavy weapon unit right where you want them more often than not with the re-roll.

 

And I'm especially against the re-roll on the Gate power. If you decide to keep the re-roll idea...I see that as an effect of superior teleport equip on the ships...not having anything to do with the psychic power. I see the scatter as a balance for giving them the Gate power.

 

That said..I did post earlier that I feel GK's in general should have better teleport capabilities than normal. Should this be a re-roll of just one die, both dice, a re-roll of the scatter dice, a re-roll of all the dice, or a roll of one die on the scatter so they don't go as far. That can be discussed if you want. I just think having a full re-roll of all the dice may be a bit overpowered for a PS with HI especially...but even special/heavy weapons.

 

Overall I like the 3 functions the PS can serve (plain, fast, assault)!!