Updating GK Fast Attack

[Ominous Anonymous]

I'm not sold on the re-rolls like GKT's. This may be overpowered when you can get your assault unit or special/heavy weapon unit right where you want them more often than not with the re-roll.

 

And I'm especially against the re-roll on the Gate power. If you decide to keep the re-roll idea...I see that as an effect of superior teleport equip on the ships...not having anything to do with the psychic power. I see the scatter as a balance for giving them the Gate power.

 

That said..I did post earlier that I feel GK's in general should have better teleport capabilities than normal. Should this be a re-roll of just one die, both dice, a re-roll of the scatter dice, a re-roll of all the dice, or a roll of one die on the scatter so they don't go as far. That can be discussed if you want. I just think having a full re-roll of all the dice may be a bit overpowered for a PS with HI especially...but even special/heavy weapons.

 

So if we were to decide which dice is rerolled, the question becomes "which is more useful: rerolling the scatter die, or the 2d6?" The Scatter die itself is probably more valuable, as you have a chance of getting a Hit result, but also gives another chance to send the unit where you don't want it to go. My big concern is an Incinerator-heavy unit: Get too far away from your target and you might have just wasted buying those weapons. But it's just a thought.

 

As for costs, I'd say make the Gate worth 15 or 20 points, but have the Justicar count as shooting. Otherwise, none of those awesome weapons you bought will be allowed to fire.

[Righteous fury]

Well maybe for the deep strike re-roll replace it for for a roll 3 dice, discard the highest.

 

Be simpler and in keeping with the fact that they have the best teleport gear so therefore more accurate and would balance the 'scatter too far for incinerators' a bit but wouldn't be a complete solution as in my opinion re-rolling all of the dice would be too powerful while re-rolling only the normal dice would be too unpredictable.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Corpse.]

GK are elitists from what I gather.

 

Fast attack GK's could reroll scatter dice. There could be a psychic stun rule you can add that disallows an enemy unit from moving in the next turn. Similar to the Lash rule but its an opposite. Instead of having an enemy assault them or move out of assault range(+run) you can easily seal somethings doom.

 

Hope thats on par with the idea in mind of GK, I dont play GK.. I do deep strike a ton with daemon armies and chaos raptors. So I have experience in this category, at least. (at least to what I would find interesting to see in the game) making for singling units out in the back of the table more direct tacticlly.

[jeffersonian000]

How about a rule similar to a drop pod's guidance system, that allows a teleporting squad to stop their drift short of a mishap. As Purgation Squads are short of CC power, this would self balance if they drift too close to an assaulty enemy.

 

SJ

[JCarter]

IMO we need to separate the ideas of "rapid insertion (RI)" and "highly mobile (HM)".Most armies have RI techniques that do not require the unit to be designated as Fast Attack. The term Fast Attack is used, as a rule, to mean HM. The FA PAGKs are really RI, not HM, so we don't have FA in the usual sense now. GKTs are not listed as FA simply because they too can teleport in.

 

For #1, IMO, no codex should lack an HM FOC choice. The "teleport" option to make some PAGK units into HM would work with minimal rules difficulty (treat teleporting PAGK as if they had jump packs). Whereas GK units don't have general access to transports, allowing PAGK to use Rhinos or Chimaerae in an FA slot would partially alleviate the problem. Allowing FA Purgators to use RHs, CHs or Razorbacks would also alleviate the problem.

 

For #2, a new unit isn't necessary if the approach of giving existing units a new capability is used. A PAGK or IST unit that could run and fire, or run and assault might do the trick. Perhaps being able to run 6" not d6" might also serve. How ahout run and fire one shot from rapid fire weapons. This type of solution would serve both DH and pure GK armies.

[FunkyEntropy]

On the idea of giving FA GK transport options, how about we come up with our own transport? Take a Land Raider chassis, strip it of the high-powered weapons, and wham: (relatively) cheap transportation that provides the GK with the protection they deserve!

 

We could call it the LR Aegis. In order to keep it from being rendered useless by a single weapon destroyed result, maybe give it two or three stormbolters?

 

Thoughts?

 

[edit: spelling]

[Corpse.]

What about giving the option of a re-teleporting unit already on the table? It is possible within the fluff. Having 1 unit per game re-teleport around. Given from the "HM" and "RI" definitions JCarter gave. Another deep strike, and the guidance system idea may be better then the reroll dice thing.

[Aidoneus]

JCarter, I think perhaps you missed part of my suggestion. For easy reference, here it is again:

 

Unit: Purgation Squad

Special Rules: may re-roll scatter and distance dice when deep-striking (like GKTs)

Options: May choose ONE of the following...

 

-The squad may take the psychic power Gate of Infinity for Xpts (I'm thinking 30ish, but we can discuss this separately). The entire squad counts as casting the power, exactly like Holocaust in a grey knight terminator squad. (we would also have to discuss whether they could use their re-roll for these teleports as well)

 

-The squad may be given the Heroic Intervention special rule for Ypts (I have no idea what's appropriate, but again probably 30ish points). This ability may not be used during the first game turn.

 

Allowing the squad to purchase Gate of Infinity makes them a HM squad. In fact, it very closely matches your suggestion of a teleporting squad "counting as" having jump packs. There are a couple points to hammer out, like shooting after using the psychic power (good catch Ominous) and whether to give them the re-roll for scatter. But you have to at least grant that the option for a HM unit is there.

 

A couple of small things. I'm not sold on the re-rolls like GKT's. This may be overpowered when you can get your assault unit or special/heavy weapon unit right where you want them more often than not with the re-roll.

Good point. I wanted to give them some sort of free ability, to make up for being non-scoring and to justify their being FA. But combined with Heroic Intervention (HI), and possibly Gate of Infinity (GoI), it could be too powerful. One way to get around this is to make the re-roll a third choice, but make it free, and still only allow them to choose 1 option. That way they can get the re-roll if they have no other specialty, just as a nice little bonus for being non-scoring, but if they specialize they do not have a re-roll. Fair? Or would it be better to just drop it altogether?

 

That said..I did post earlier that I feel GK's in general should have better teleport capabilities than normal. Should this be a re-roll of just one die, both dice, a re-roll of the scatter dice, a re-roll of all the dice, or a roll of one die on the scatter so they don't go as far. That can be discussed if you want. I just think having a full re-roll of all the dice may be a bit overpowered for a PS with HI especially...but even special/heavy weapons.

I think it's easiest to go with re-rolling everything. This follows the precedent of twin-linked blast weapons, and also GKTs (which, it should be noted, work that way because of the precedent of twin-linked blast weapons). Honestly, I think allowing the player to be selective about the dice he's re-rolling makes it more, not less, powerful. For example, perhaps you rolled a low number, but scattered the wrong direction. Is it worth it to try re-rolling everything, knowing full well you could scatter a farther distance? Just something to think about.

 

How about a rule similar to a drop pod's guidance system, that allows a teleporting squad to stop their drift short of a mishap. As Purgation Squads are short of CC power, this would self balance if they drift too close to an assaulty enemy.

The thing about a drop pod is that it's coming down through real space, and can see what's going on below it as it comes. Thus, it senses (that is, it's sensors pick up) where units or impassable terrain is, and the inertial guidance system can adjust. In the case of teleporting, what's going on in warp space doesn't necessarily map onto what's going on in real space, and certainly not accurately enough to be able to prevent yourself from coming into real space mid-rock, or something like that. I see where you're coming from, I just think that the justification for the one doesn't at all work for the other.

 

On the idea of giving FA GK transport options, how about we come up with our own transport? Take a Land Raider chassis, strip it of the high-powered weapons, and wham: (relatively) cheap transportation that provides the GK with the protection they deserve!

I'm afraid this would run afoul of our minimalism. Part of the reason I like using Purgation squads so much is precisely that we don't have to invent a new unit.

[Corpse.]

I play orks a bunch, and having Warp'Ead's re-teleport around my dakka squads is very fun to use. A high chance of getting the power putting two of them in my flash gits unit. Even funnier if I get to teleport twice! If that is possible with an ork mind...

 

Imagine what the best the imperium has to offer. I say yes to re-teleporting GK's. If you dont mind my reinforcement with a non-PA example from a vastly inferior race.

[Thaelion Hexis]

Allowing FA Purgators to use RHs, CHs or Razorbacks would also alleviate the problem.

 

The problem is that goes against the intention of the original codex. The whole theme of Grey Knights is the elites teleporting in to take the fight to the daemon. I always assumed that PAGK as Troops teleported in just off the combat zone to secure ground on foot, soften the enemy before the rest of the force teleports in. I do not see how we need to deviate from the original concept.

[JCarter]

The problem is mobility on the battlefield. In some scenarios, the enemy can just avoid the GK by outrunning them. How can you annihilate when you can't catch the enemy? With a small number of elite units, you have to be able to readjust their positions to accomplish goals serially rather than simultaneously. Also, under current rules, FA GKs can't hold objectives. Teleporting in gets you to the battlefield (RI) but is of very limited tactical use compared to the HM units fielded by almost all others, especially units with FA transports (skimmers).

[Aidoneus]

The problem is mobility on the battlefield. In some scenarios, the enemy can just avoid the GK by outrunning them. How can you annihilate when you can't catch the enemy? With a small number of elite units, you have to be able to readjust their positions to accomplish goals serially rather than simultaneously. Also, under current rules, FA GKs can't hold objectives. Teleporting in gets you to the battlefield (RI) but is of very limited tactical use compared to the HM units fielded by almost all others, especially units with FA transports (skimmers).

Why do you insist that a unit with Gate of Infinity isn't a highly mobile unit? It moves exactly as far as turbo-boosting bikes (possibly more, given a good scatter), and much further than jump packs or transports. It's a FANTASTIC high-mobility power, and is borderline-overpowered (I thought it was 12", but it's actually 24"). So I don't see how you could possibly argue against it on the grounds that it isn't doesn't make the unit an HM unit.

[Ominous Anonymous]

That, and between up to 12 BS4 S6 shots you can wreck lightly-armored vehicles while going faster or just as fast in the case of Skimmers and Fast Vehicles, I can't think of many units that could stand up to 4 Incinerators, without or without the follow-up Assault.

[Marid]

Allowing FA Purgators to use RHs, CHs or Razorbacks would also alleviate the problem.

 

The problem is that goes against the intention of the original codex. The whole theme of Grey Knights is the elites teleporting in to take the fight to the daemon. I always assumed that PAGK as Troops teleported in just off the combat zone to secure ground on foot, soften the enemy before the rest of the force teleports in. I do not see how we need to deviate from the original concept.

 

Exactly. And to take the shortcut and allow the use of more SM vehicles simply makes GKs more like Space Marines. That's not what we want. I think a teleporting army is a very different kind of army. Since FA troops can't hold objectives and since deep-striking is dangerous I don't think it is too powerful.

[Aidoneus]

Here's my updated proposal. Anything about it you'd like changed? Are there still other unit options you think we should consider? Or is this satisfactory?

 

Unit: Purgation Squad

Changes: unit size changed to Justicar + 4-9 Grey Knights

Special Rules: The unit Must choose ONE of the following...

 

-When teleporting in, the unit may re-roll the scatter and distance dice exactly like with a twin-linked blast weapon. They must accept the new results, even if they are worse! -free

 

-The squad has the psychic power Gate of Infinity. The entire squad counts as casting the power, exactly like Holocaust in a grey knight terminator squad. If more than one member of the squad is alive when this power is used, they are subject to taking wounds as described in the power. -35pts

 

-The squad has the Heroic Intervention special rule. This ability may not be used during the first game turn. -25pts

[jeffersonian000]

I don't know, each option seems to be equally useful yet also equally restrictive. Why not just have them all free, as a squad can only ever have one?

 

SJ

[FunkyEntropy]

I don't know, each option seems to be equally useful yet also equally restrictive. Why not just have them all free, as a squad can only ever have one?

 

SJ

 

Seconded. You're already paying a price because the unit no longer counts as scoring.

[Aidoneus]

Well, consider this. The purgation squad in the codex was deemed balanced by GW. Part of this project was bring all GKs up to standard power, and purg squads got deep strike, better special rules, justicar psyker powers, grenades, etc. We also reduced the cost of their special weapons. And lastly, we've moved them to FA, so they no longer compete with other HS options. In short, we have done a lot to improve these guys already. Keep that in mind.

 

I would say that right now these guys are balanced, They are basically our version of a dev squad, with affordable weapons and in FA, making them actually at least as useful to us as devs are to spacies.

 

If you have a squad that is balanced, and you give it something that makes it better, you need to increase its point cost. This is the basis of the entire points system.

 

So, taking our basic Purg squad and giving it either Heroic Intervention or Gate of Infinity, both of which actually increase our power quite a bit, will absolutely necessitate a corresponding points cost. One could make the same argument for the scatter re-roll, and I think they actually might have a point, but since it's not nearly as powerful as the other two abilities I just left it free. However, the prospect of being charged out of nowhere by up to 10 Grey Knights, or having a mobile special weapons team bouncing 24" around the board, are frankly terrifying! Those are incredibly useful abilities.

 

Also, let's remember, there is more to this game than taking objectives. For one thing, a third of the time it doesn't matter at all. But even in Capture and Control or Seize Ground missions, it can be just as useful to contest an objective. Having Gate means we can contest just as well as turbo-boosting bikers, and Heroic Intervention means we can get stuck right in with the enemies lines, which can completely knock a static shooty army like IG or Tau off their objective, not to mention ruining their defensive line.

 

We can discuss how much we think these abilities are worth, but I think it's almost laughable to think that a player wouldn't gladly give up a single Grey Knight for such an ability, so I think it's safe to say 25pts is a reasonable minimum cost. I have GoI at more than that because I think the 24" move and still being able to fire is sick.

 

Perhaps the best idea right now is to playtest, starting with the points I have now and seeing if they're worthwhile (or even undercosted). Does anyone have any concerns with the unit other than the specific costs associated with the three abilities? That is, can we put this unit as it stands back into the main project, and just hammer out point costs after some playtesting?

[FunkyEntropy]

Perhaps the best idea right now is to playtest, starting with the points I have now and seeing if they're worthwhile (or even undercosted). Does anyone have any concerns with the unit other than the specific costs associated with the three abilities? That is, can we put this unit as it stands back into the main project, and just hammer out point costs after some playtesting?

 

Works for me.

[jeffersonian000]

I'm not disagreeing with your assessment on the usefulness of the three abilities in question nor with the matter of cost. What I have an issue with is why HI and GoI require such a high cost for what is tactically only as useful as your scatter dice is lucky.

 

Example 1: Purgation Squad with psycannons; I choose to re-roll my scatter dice so I can attempt to avoid mishaps while staying within assault weapon range of a target. For this I can have the ability for free and since it’s only useful once per unit per game, it’s great because my Psycannons are now in place to be used as a firebase where I chose to put.

 

Example 2: Purgation Squad with incinerators; I choose to gate my unit around from point to point to assist with reducing hordes. For this I can have the ability for a fee and as it greatly increases wounds due to dice rolls and potential mishaps, the ability to get close enough to use incinerators makes this tactic very risky.

 

Example 3: Purgation Squad with no or few special weapons; I choose Heroic Intervention for my unit so that I can get in a first turn charge. For this I can have the ability for a fee and as it’s used once per unit per game and is reliant on a good scatter roll my squad could end up too far away to charge (effectively negating the points I paid to have the ability to charge); thankfully my guy’s have True Grit – wait a second, True Grit has no effect on a charge. Oh well!

 

I admit, those are just a sample of the different combos that can be had for using the suggested special abilities, each one is only effective either once per unit per game or is subject to self inflected wounds from average die rolls. This in my mind tends to reduce the effectiveness of each ability to the point that personally, I would only chose the free one and purchase psycannons with the points I saved by not purchasing the other two abilities as at least I can be assured that my firebase will arrive where I want it.

 

SJ

[Grey Mage]

I dont think its appropriate for a codex to lack an option for a particular slot. There should always be atleast one option. Always.

 

That being said I dont think you should go outside of the fluff for it either, wich I can see causing a problem.

 

I think that perhaps Grey Knights in Drop Pods might be a comprimise, but it feels a little half-assed. Another option is adding Chimera mounted IS squads as a FA choice. Or possibly GK with the Gate of Infinity power?

 

*EDIT* since someone else posted it and I didnt check the second page, I say go for the gate of infinity power, and make the unit scoring- but costs an extra five points per marine.

[Aidoneus]

This in my mind tends to reduce the effectiveness of each ability to the point that personally, I would only chose the free one and purchase psycannons with the points I saved by not purchasing the other two abilities as at least I can be assured that my firebase will arrive where I want it.

So... you're saying you don't think option 1 should be free? Because, in principle at the very least, I agree. I don't think it's as good as the other two, but I'd say we could easily charge something like 10pts or so for it.

 

The thing is, 1/3 of the time, you won't scatter at all on your first roll. And most of the time, even if you do scatter, it won't be far enough or in a terrible direction so that you'd necessarily want the re-roll. Am I saying it's not a useful ability? Absolutely not. All I'm saying is that it's not as useful as the other two powers.

 

But hey, what you're saying is that you personally would choose that option. That's fine. I can guarantee you there are people here who would choose the other two options. For myself, even at the high price of 35pts I would probably take Gate of Infinity, to add that high-mobility element to the list. And for anyone who likes assaults, herioc intervention is the obvious candidate. I think it says a lot that all three of our options are viable, and appeal to different people with different strategies in list-building.

[Grey Mage]

I dont think they should be allowed to have the heroic intervention special ability.

 

Why? Because demons, who do this alot more and who specialize in teleport attacks cant do it at all. I think it rather odd they gave vangaurd this ability. It shouldnt spread farther.

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

Well, consider this. The purgation squad in the codex was deemed balanced by GW. Part of this project was bring all GKs up to standard power, and purg squads got deep strike, better special rules, justicar psyker powers, grenades, etc. We also reduced the cost of their special weapons. And lastly, we've moved them to FA, so they no longer compete with other HS options. In short, we have done a lot to improve these guys already. Keep that in mind.

 

I would say that right now these guys are balanced, They are basically our version of a dev squad, with affordable weapons and in FA, making them actually at least as useful to us as devs are to spacies.

 

If you have a squad that is balanced, and you give it something that makes it better, you need to increase its point cost. This is the basis of the entire points system.

 

 

Well they thought it balanced 7 years ago...now?...probably not.

 

Also, the new rules do make them more balanced and usable than they were in the past! Don't get me wrong! But as for charging more points...I would like to touch on this briefly. The new trend in the codex's is special rules or psychic powers with no more "+Xpts". It's just there. Look at Librarians...no more "+ 5pts" etc for powers like in the previous Codex. Just "pick one".

 

Heroic Intervention...the Vets just have it. Does the 4 pts more than a normal Marine cover this? Probably, but that 4 pts also covers +1A and +1LD. So "how much" is HI worth? Hard to say...1pt per Marine maybe? And someone brought up that this ability is essentially "once per game". And the big thing is that this could go badly on a 2/3 chance on the scatter roll and an average roll of (7") on the 2 dice...which could put them out of charge range!! So maybe a small point cost at most.

 

Re-roll scatter on Deep Strike. Once per game...2/3 chance to scatter with a 1/3 chance to fix it. Not bad...not really worth charging points.

 

GoI...actually allows this unit to act as FA. Almost as good as Turbo-B Bikes (they get a 3+ cover save), but with much less control due to scatter (see above examples). The chance to hurt the unit with a Perils (1/36) negligible unless there is Eldar or something...the chance to hurt the unit if they roll doubles...fair chance...and the chance to hurt the unit due to a bad scatter and rolling bad on the Deep Strike table...depends...but yes you can move 24" or so and shoot...but probably not that well with flamers..just SB or psycannons. Worth a few points...probably not a huge cost due to risk..but the most potentially devastating power of the 3.

 

 

So, charge more points? Here is my last consideration. See the new trend in the Codex's for lowering unit costs on a lot of things. Assault marines..lower. Marine bikes...way lower. Rhinos...lower. Techmarine, Attack bike, Scout Bike, Vindicator, Predator, LR Crusader (even with multi-melta re-bought on it). All lower! A lot of weapon options both lowered and raised. And yes..a couple of units went up by a point or so...but way more units got cheaper.

 

So do we think GK's need a point drop? Or do we just give em some abilities to balance them again? And either don't charge em or charge a small amount.

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

Perhaps the best idea right now is to playtest, starting with the points I have now and seeing if they're worthwhile (or even undercosted). Does anyone have any concerns with the unit other than the specific costs associated with the three abilities? That is, can we put this unit as it stands back into the main project, and just hammer out point costs after some playtesting?

 

 

I'm good with this as well! (after my previous post with my mighty $.02 worth)